Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Mazingerdestro]

Ssj1<ssj2<ssj3<ssjgod<ssjblue<ssjssjgod
We go from using normal ki, to using God ki, and in the end creating a new form by trying different combinations between ki. I think ssjssjgod is something like 70% ki+ 30% God ki.
I don't think that base Goku and Vegeta are using God ki. They have God ki sense but still they need to add it. That also explains ssjgodss or ssjblue

[OLKv3]

Ssj1<ssj2<ssj3<ssjgod<ssjblue<ssjssjgod
We go from using normal ki, to using God ki, and in the end creating a new form by trying different combinations between ki. I think ssjssjgod is something like 70% ki+ 30% God ki.
I don't think that base Goku and Vegeta are using God ki. They have God ki sense but still they need to add it. That also explains ssjgodss or ssjblue

They aren't. They only use God Ki when they go Blue.

[Marlowe89]

I think we've covered this before but you're using information from years prior to refute information presented recently. It doesn't make sense. No matter how you slice it they are shown using God ki in base. No one is making the argument that they were or should have been using it throughout the show or what it means beyond that. Just that it's explicitly shown to occur in the anime universe.

If you want to write it away as a production issue that's fine but it still occurred.

Bingo.

I'm pretty much done arguing with him. It's clear that he believes only what he wants to believe and not what the anime actually presents in that scene, so there's no point in continuing this anymore. I've already made my case.

[Marlowe89]

I will note though that there are two more things that imply two bases, or at the very least insinuate that Goku's non-Blue Super Saiyan forms are suppressed states below that of Super Saiyan God.

1.) When Frieza asks Goku what Super Saiyan Blue is, Goku responds by defining it as a "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan". But then what is the golden Super Saiyan? It can't be the Super Saiyan form of one who has the power of Super Saiyan God because that's what Super Saiyan Blue is. Indeed, if "power of Super Saiyan God" is the modifier that differentiates Super Saiyan Blue from Super Saiyan as is explicitly suggested by the structure of Goku's sentence, then the golden/yellow Super Saiyan would have to be the version of Super Saiyan without that power.

2.) The narrator in Episode 25 specifically notes that Super Saiyan Blue "exceeds even the Super Saiyan God". But if it exceeds "even" Super Saiyan God, that would suggest that none of Goku's other Super Saiyan forms exceed it.

[buutenks]

I will note though that there are two more things that imply two bases, or at the very least insinuate that Goku's non-Blue Super Saiyan forms are suppressed states below that of Super Saiyan God.

1.) When Frieza asks Goku what Super Saiyan Blue is, Goku responds by defining it as a "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan". But then what is the golden Super Saiyan? It can't be the Super Saiyan form of one who has the power of Super Saiyan God because that's what Super Saiyan Blue is. Indeed, if "power of Super Saiyan God" is the modifier that differentiates Super Saiyan Blue from Super Saiyan as is explicitly suggested by the structure of Goku's sentence, then the golden/yellow Super Saiyan would have to be the version of Super Saiyan without that power.

2.) The narrator in Episode 25 specifically notes that Super Saiyan Blue "exceeds even the Super Saiyan God". But if it exceeds "even" Super Saiyan God, that would suggest that none of Goku's other Super Saiyan forms exceed it.

That was my sole belief since super started. That base form is incredibely powerful(buuhan level atleast), but not at ssg level. And only ssj blue is at ssg level and surpasses it.

Plus, if base would really be as powerful as ssg, then ssj blue would be atleast thousands of times stronger and that makes little to no sense. Since that would make Beerus many thousands of times, or even tens of thousands of times stronger than ssg. That contradicts the 10% line from Beerus way to much and makes it stupid to think that Beerus would think someone thousands of times weaker than him can give him a fun fight...

Plus as you said, the narrator states, that only ssj blue has surpassed ssg. Even king kai says it.

As for what bullza is keep saying with the 'unrestraint' attack, that makes zero sense, considering how many more times Beerus is more powerful than them, if it would be truly Beerus' 100% attacks, they would have been vaporized.

Or, if base is truly god level, why did copy Vegeta fail to one hit ko ssj3 Gotenks?

[TheMikado]

^ SSJ3 Gotenks is God tier and has blue ki. If the champa arc fighters can be millions of times stronger than the Buu saga characters by default there's no reason Gotenks can't suddenly be either.

[Bullza]

I'm pretty much done arguing with him. It's clear that he believes only what he wants to believe and not what the anime actually presents in that scene

Because it's contradictory with what a a lot of other scenes present. If they did the same thing in Episode 22 then there should have a blue aura there but there wasn't.

Divine Ki isn't just going to be them not letting ordinary Ki out of their bodies.

[Marlowe89]

You didn't say anything in that post that I haven't already addressed. Wondering if this forum has an ignore list function at this point.

Whether it contradicts other scenes is of no consequence to me (I don't think that's necessarily the case and I've explained why but whatever), since there are other scenes that are consistent with the scene we're talking about as I've pointed out. The fact is that it happened, and you can't just deny it happened because it makes you feel uncomfortable.

[Bullza]

It might not be to you but it is to the show. Once again we already know for an absolute fact that Goku never lost any of his power when losing God Ki.

So the idea that Base Goku can increase in power by obtaining God Ki is false. Likewise if he's already as strong as Super Saiyan God in Base without God Ki then again the idea that he can only get that strong with God Ki is also false.

And of course there's nothing whatsoever to suggest he ever lost that power, not just in the anime but in anything.

[Marlowe89]

Edit: Nevermind. I said I was done responding to the same fallacious points over and over in addition to your denial of what was clearly established by the context of a simple scene, so I'll stick to my word. At this rate I could continue this back-and-forth exchange for 15 more pages and it would still be entirely over your head.

[Bullza]

That point stands. It is one of the few things that is undisputable.

You came up with this whole theory on how he'd only kept the leftover God power which ran out over time so he wasn't as strong after the fight just to try and make this brief scene in Episode 20 fit.

Well nothing ever suggested he'd lost any power at any point which them withstanding Beerus' unrestrained attacks showed but then you tried to dismiss that by saying "Oh it actually wasn't his unrestrained attacks, it was a gag scene and Beerus was lying" even though that is what was said and it was Vegeta who said it.

You're ignoring a lot of things that were said and shown to try and make your interpretation of this brief scene fit which is contradictory with the other scene you brought up in Episode 22.

[emperior]

My updated PL list


BoG Arc

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 100
SSJ - 5,000
SSJ2 - 10,000
SSJ3 - 40,000
SSG - 450,000

Vegeta
Base - 96
SSJ - 4,800
SSJ2 - 9,600
SSJ2 Enraged - 64,000

Beerus
Unseen True Power - 10,000,000

From now on, I'm going to assume Beerus used 10% of his true power and then scaled his power basing on the foes he had

Full Power - 1,000,000
vs SSJ3 Goku, at 5% - 50,000
vs Enraged Vegeta, at 10% - 100,000
vs God Goku, at 50% - 500,000

Whis
Full Power - 15,000,000[/spoiler]

RoF Arc

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 500
God Ki - 15,000
SSB - 750,000

Vegeta
Base - 500
God Ki - 15,000
SSB - 750,000

Freezer
1st Form - 100
4th Form - 16,000
Golden - 800,000
Exhausted - 400,000

(Golden Form is 50x of Freezer's 4th form)

Gohan
Base - 90
SSJ - 4,500

Tagoma
Pre-Training - 10
Post-Training - 4,500
Possessed by Ginyu - 3,500[/spoiler]

Universal Tournament Arc


Gods

[spoiler]Whis - 15,000,000

Beerus - 10,000,000

Vados - 15,010,000

Champa - 9,990,000[/spoiler]

U7 Fighters

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 1,000
SSJ - 50,000
SSB - 1,000,000
SSB + KKx2 - 2,000,000
SSB + KKx10 - 10,000,000

Vegeta

Base - 1,000
SSJ - 50,000
SSB - 1,000,000

Piccolo - 9,000

Mr Buu - 40,000

Monaka - 1[/spoiler]

U6 Fighters

[spoiler]Botamo - 500

Frost
1st Form - 100
Assault Form - 1,000
Final Form - 10,000

Otto Magetta - 50,000

Cabba
Base - 600
SSJ - 30,000

Hit - ???[/spoiler]


Black Arc

[spoiler]Future Trunks
Base - 1,200
SSJ - 60,000
SSJ2 - 120,000

Trunks (after 1st senzu)
Base - 1,500
SSJ - 75,000
SSJ2 - 150,000

Black
Base Full Power - 150,000
Post fight w/ Goku - 200,000
SSR Full Power - 2,000,000

Goku
Base - 1,500
SSJ - 75,000
SSJ2 - 150,000
SSJ3 - 300,000
SSB - 1,200,000
SSB Wounded - 400,000

Vegeta
Base - 1,500
SSB - 1,200,000

Trunks after training
Base - 1,600
SSJ - 80,000
SSJ2 - 160,000
SSJ2 Full Power - 320,000

Zamasu - 100,000

Immortal Zamasu - 300,000

Goku after senzu
Base - 1,600
SSB - 1,300,000
SSB Enraged - 2,300,000

Vegeta after senzu
Base - 1,600
SSB - 1,300,000
SSB after training - 3,200,000

Trunks after senzu
Base - 1,800
SSJ2 Full Power - 360,000
Enraged Form - 2,400,000

Black
SSR - 2,200,000
After boost - 2,400,000[/spoiler]

[dbgtFO]

Why do you have the SSB as a 1,000 x boost in the Champa Arc, but less than that in the following arc?

[emperior]

My updated PL list


BoG Arc

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 100
SSJ - 5,000
SSJ2 - 10,000
SSJ3 - 40,000
SSG - 450,000

Vegeta
Base - 96
SSJ - 4,800
SSJ2 - 9,600
SSJ2 Enraged - 64,000

Beerus
Unseen True Power - 10,000,000

From now on, I'm going to assume Beerus used 10% of his true power and then scaled his power basing on the foes he had

Full Power - 1,000,000
vs SSJ3 Goku, at 5% - 50,000
vs Enraged Vegeta, at 10% - 100,000
vs God Goku, at 50% - 500,000

Whis
Full Power - 15,000,000[/spoiler]

RoF Arc

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 500
God Ki - 15,000
SSB - 750,000

Vegeta
Base - 500
God Ki - 15,000
SSB - 750,000

Freezer
1st Form - 100
4th Form - 16,000
Golden - 800,000
Exhausted - 400,000

(Golden Form is 50x of Freezer's 4th form)

Gohan
Base - 90
SSJ - 4,500

Tagoma
Pre-Training - 10
Post-Training - 4,500
Possessed by Ginyu - 3,500[/spoiler]

Universal Tournament Arc


Gods

[spoiler]Whis - 15,000,000

Beerus - 10,000,000

Vados - 15,010,000

Champa - 9,990,000[/spoiler]

U7 Fighters

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 1,000
SSJ - 50,000
SSB - 1,000,000
SSB + KKx2 - 2,000,000
SSB + KKx10 - 10,000,000

Vegeta

Base - 1,000
SSJ - 50,000
SSB - 1,000,000

Piccolo - 9,000

Mr Buu - 40,000

Monaka - 1[/spoiler]

U6 Fighters

[spoiler]Botamo - 500

Frost
1st Form - 100
Assault Form - 1,000
Final Form - 10,000

Otto Magetta - 50,000

Cabba
Base - 600
SSJ - 30,000

Hit - ???[/spoiler]


Black Arc

[spoiler]Future Trunks
Base - 1,200
SSJ - 60,000
SSJ2 - 120,000

Trunks (after 1st senzu)
Base - 1,500
SSJ - 75,000
SSJ2 - 150,000

Black
Base Full Power - 150,000
Post fight w/ Goku - 200,000
SSR Full Power - 2,000,000

Goku
Base - 1,500
SSJ - 75,000
SSJ2 - 150,000
SSJ3 - 300,000
SSB - 1,500,000
SSB Wounded - 400,000

Vegeta
Base - 1,500
SSB - 1,500,000

Trunks after training
Base - 1,600
SSJ - 80,000
SSJ2 - 160,000
SSJ2 Full Power - 320,000

Zamasu - 100,000

Immortal Zamasu - 300,000

Goku after senzu
Base - 1,600
SSB - 1,600,000
SSB Enraged - 2,300,000

Vegeta after senzu
Base - 1,600
SSB - 1,600,000
SSB after training - 3,200,000

Trunks after senzu
Base - 1,800
SSJ2 Full Power - 360,000
Enraged Form - 2,400,000

Black
SSR - 2,200,000
After boost - 2,400,000[/spoiler]

[emperior]

Why do you have the SSB as a 1,000 x boost in the Champa Arc, but less than that in the following arc?

That was an error, thank you for pointing it out. I try to keep multipliers consistent. I even made
Enraged Vegeta and Enraged Trunks multiplier the same. The only difference would be that Trunks manages to control his enraged status.

(Sorry for double post, I'm on my phone and I'm not very used to post by here)

[Marlowe89]

Even king kai says it.

I just checked the episode and you're right. The moment after Goku transforms into Super Saiyan Blue, King Kai flips out and says he can't believe that Goku managed to obtain the power of Super Saiyan God without a ritual.

So that makes not two, but THREE times the anime confirms that only Super Saiyan Blue meets or exceeds the strength of Super Saiyan God. So we would either be forced to conclude that A.) Base/SS Goku didn't actually retain all of SSG's power post-BoG, or B.) Goku and Vegeta usually battle in a suppressed state until they transform into Super Saiyan Blue. The latter idea might be a bit disconcerting for some, but it does match up with Toyotaro's special RoF manga where base Goku momentarily taps into the power of SSG (and not a moment before) against Whis.

[HeroR]

Even king kai says it.

I just checked the episode and you're right. The moment after Goku transforms into Super Saiyan Blue, King Kai flips out and says he can't believe that Goku managed to obtain the power of Super Saiyan God without a ritual.

So that makes not two, but THREE times the anime confirms that Goku doesn't meet or exceed the strength of Super Saiyan God unless he's specifically using Super Saiyan Blue. So we would either be forced to conclude that A.) Base/SS Goku didn't actually retain all of SSG's power post-BoG, or B.) Goku and Vegeta usually battle in a suppressed state until they transform into Super Saiyan Blue. The latter idea might be a bit disconcerting for some, but it does match up with Toyotaro's special RoF manga where base Goku momentarily taps into the power of SSG and not a moment before against Whis.

He means Goku now has God ki even without the ritual, which is why everyone was shocked. It wasn't about power.

The anime said the opposite. Beerus confirmed that Goku kept the power of Super Saiyan God even when the transformation broke and it was never said he became weaker afterwards. In fact, everyone said Goku was stronger than ever. The only difference is that Goku normal ki became stronger.

[Marlowe89]

He means Goku now has God ki even without the ritual, which is why everyone was shocked. It wasn't about power.

Kuririn says "Has Goku reached a level even higher than what he was at back then? How strong does he have to get before he's satisfied?" which is then followed by King Kai expressing surprise that he can reach Super Saiyan God without the help of other Saiyans. So it's clear that Toei was also referring to power in that scene, not just the type of ki they were using.

It also matches up with the two other lines of dialogue in Episodes 24 and 25 which imply that Super Saiyan Blue is the only form that uses and exceeds Super Saiyan God's power.

[HeroR]

He means Goku now has God ki even without the ritual, which is why everyone was shocked. It wasn't about power.

Kuririn says "Has Goku reached a level even higher than what he was at back then? How strong does he have to get before he's satisfied?" which is then followed by King Kai expressing surprise that he can reach Super Saiyan God without the help of other Saiyans. So it's clear that Toei was also referring to power in that scene, not just the type of ki they were using.

It also matches up with the two other lines of dialogue in Episodes 24 and 25 about Super Saiyan Blue being a form that uses and exceeds Super Saiyan God's power.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a stronger form than Super Saiyan God. So it would be a new level of power, which was what everyone was saying. Goku already had the power of a Super Saiyan God within him and he surpassed it.

[Marlowe89]

Read Kuririn's comment again. He calls it an even higher level of power than "what it was back then", confirming that the last time they saw Goku using that power level was against Beerus and not Frieza.

Moreover, why would they say that Blue makes him EVEN stronger than Super Saiyan God if he was already stronger before transforming? That makes no sense.