Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Noah]

Quoting myself from the recent episode thread:

Vegeta trained so much in the RoSaT that he actually destroyed the whole PLACE? WTF?!! And we do expect that him got stronger even though he said in the U6 Arc that both he and Goku wouldn't get much stronger by training by the same method? WHAT THE ACTUAL F***?!

There are still reasons to try find reasonable explanations for all this clusterf***?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Quoting myself from the recent episode thread:

Vegeta trained so much in the RoSaT that he actually destroyed the whole PLACE? WTF?!! And we do expect that him got stronger even though he said in the U6 Arc that both he and Goku wouldn't get much stronger by training by the same method? WHAT THE ACTUAL F***?!

There are still reasons to try find reasonable explanations for all this clusterf***?

Until now all of the weird powerscaling could be explained away somehow, but now it's all been ruined. Vegeta's time chamber training makes no fucking sense.

Another thing, how does RoF Base Goku compare to BoG SSG Goku?

[GodVegetto91]

Merged Zamasu has to be getting pretty close to Beerus' power. That comment Goku made at the end of 53 surely will have been foreshadowing, rather than a completely random comment with no payoff.
At least I hope so.

What comment?

[Bullza]

The fact of the matter is that there was no point of comparison made between base Goku's strength and the full strength of Super Saiyan God.

If Base Goku can destroy a ball of energy that Super Saiyan Goku struggled with and Super Saiyan Goku at full power is stronger than Super Saiyan God then when Base Goku is at full power he should be stronger than Super Saiyan God. This fits with him being able to withstand Beerus's unrestrained attacks and just other comments or instances outside of the anime.

So? If Goku wasn't actually using Super Saiyan God's true strength before flying off to space with Beerus, as the narrator specifically says, then whatever the earthlings were seeing wasn't representative of that transformation's true power to begin with. This is not complicated.

And again you're assuming that his true power is superior and you don't know that. For all you know they might have still been able to see them fight after he'd grown stronger in space. What we know for a fact is that the Base Goku who fought Frieza was at least stronger than the Super Saiyan God Goku at some point. He obviously doesn't need God Ki to get into that level of power in base.

Considering that Beerus said he'd grown much stronger then it could easily explain why they could see SSJG but not Base.

Again, the quote was that he'd reached an even higher level of power than what he was at back then, followed by Krillin questioning how powerful Goku would become until he's satisfied. It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever for the dialogue to refer to Goku's power "back then" if Goku was already stronger than that power level while fighting Frieza in base.

King Kai didn't just say Goku had become a God without help, he said he'd reached the level of a Super Saiyan God without help. That's pretty damn specific and obviously not just referring to ki, otherwise King Kai would have just mentioned God ki instead.

He had reached a level higher than he'd obtained back when he fought Beerus though. Base Goku wasn't at a level higher than back then, he's at the same level. Super Saiyan Blue is what's on another level.

Also all King Kai said was "He can become a Super Saiyan God without the help of other saiyans? What kind of training did he do on Beerus' planet?". He didn't say he'd reached that level (unless that was said in a different episode).

Herms fact checker thread also says this.

Significance: After absorbing SSG into his base form in the Battle of Gods arc, Goku transforms into what he describes as the "Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan who has the power of Super Saiyan God", which as Freeza mentions is quite a mouthful. This is the exact same line from Revival of "F", no twists about it.

Yes you are. The narrator never even specifically said that Super Saiyan Goku was stronger than Super Saiyan God, you just inferred it. Saying he was "beyond a God" isn't actually using the term "Super Saiyan God", and it's a pretty vague statement anyway considering that phrases such as "beyond God" and "obtaining the power of God" have been used in contexts outside of Super Saiyan God specifically on countless occasions in the anime. "God" could easily refer to a generic minimum of strength here, not the actual full power of Super Saiyan God.

He was shown to have more power when no longer a God and as a Super Saiyan than he had as a Super Saiyan God. The "beyond a God" line makes sense with that. That said the power he displayed was still all part of the Super Saiyan God power within him. Beerus said that that power had merged and become a part of him.

It makes no sense to say that his regular Super Saiyan forms are weaker than Super Saiyan God if we shown and told otherwise. As a Super Saiyan he was able to defeat Zamasu a being who is shown to be strong enough to go toe to toe with Super Saiyan Blue. Yes that was Present Zamasu but Future Zamasu isn't going to be that much stronger.

Meanwhile, you're assuming that base Goku was as powerful as Super Saiyan God with no piece of dialogue to support that conclusion whatsoever.

And you're assuming that he lost the power of Super Saiyan God after fighting Beerus though nothing ever suggested that. You dismiss them withstanding attacks from Beerus as a gag even though what was said was in no way a gag. You dismiss information that was shown or said outside of the anime because of just that.

Base Goku was shown to be able to fight on par with Beerus in Monaka's costume and when Vegeta said he had snapped and Whis said he was letting off steam and getting into it.

If you're referring to Episode 21, that was after Goku and Vegeta were already shown using God ki in base. Beerus may have been well-aware of the fact that they'd have already obtained or were at least close to something like Super Saiyan Blue at the time.

It was also before they were thrown into Whis' staff. If they'd already obtained Super Saiyan Blue then Vegeta shouldn't really be so surprised by the God Ki and the pressure of the place nor should Whis think they weren't ready for it. If anything they would have learned Super Saiyan Blue when they were in the staff which they were sent into to get stronger in the first place, it'd be a pointless plot device otherwise wouldn't it?

[dbgtFO]

Merged Zamasu has to be getting pretty close to Beerus' power. That comment Goku made at the end of 53 surely will have been foreshadowing, rather than a completely random comment with no payoff.
At least I hope so.

What comment?

After defeating Zamasu Goku told Beerus that Zamasu could one day become as powerful as Beerus.

[ShinTenshin]

Goku Black became stronger ONLY when he fight an amazing opponent.
When he face Trunks, he says he wait for Goku to attain a new power of level, conclusion, Black think that Goku is still better than Trunks !

And Black attack him with confidence without using his new power (seen against Goku).
After the Gallick Gun, Black is mocking Trunks power Level "I might get a bruise".

But when Black fight Vegeta, he admit than the Saiyajin prince is now FAR stronger than him.
And i'm really sure Goku will be magically as strong as Vegeta in the next EP. Trunks will always be inferior compared to SSBLUE.

I'd say now :
Trunks SS2 Enraged 1000
Black Rosé 1 500
Végéta/Goku SSBLUE 2000

[Zamasu55]

So, Black Goku admitted that SsjB Vegeta is on a completely different level of strength than his...
On the other hand, Goku hasn't trained, so we can state that SsjB Vegeta (post training) is the strongest character of the Black Goku saga so far.
Future Zamasu doesn't look that strong, he's just immortal and can't be hurt, so it's much easier for him.

Omni King.
The Great Priest.
Whis/Vados.
Beerus/Champa.

These are the strongest characters of the show.

Hit (max power).
SsjB Kkx10 Goku.
SsjB Vegeta (post training).
SsjR Black Goku.
SsjB Goku (angry, Black Goku saga).
Future Zamasu.
Black Goku (base form).
Hit (first improvement).
SsjB Goku (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga)/SsjB Goku (Universal tournament saga)/SsjB Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Copy-Vegeta/SsjB Vegeta (Universal tournament saga)/Enraged Ssj2 Trunks.
Golden Frieza.
SsjB Goku (ROF saga), SsjB Vegeta (ROF saga).
SsjG Goku.
Ssj2 Future Trunks (post training).
Hit (base power).
Beyond God Goku (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga), Beyond God Goku (Universal tournament saga)/Beyond God Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Copy-Vegeta, Beyond God Vegeta (Universal tournament saga).
Beyond God Goku (ROF saga), Beyond God Vegeta (ROF saga), Final form Frieza (ROF saga).

I think this is pretty much correct. One thing: Black Goku (base form) was shown to be stronger than SsjB Vegeta in episode 56.

Black Goku (against Future Trunks and Goku)/Ssj3 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Future Trunks.
Zamasu.
Ssj Goku (Universal Tournament)/Ssj Vegeta (Universal Tournament)/Magetta.
Ssj Future Trunks.
Ssj Cabba.
Final form Frost.
Enraged Ssj2 Vegeta.
First form Frieza (ROF saga).
Ultimate Gohan (BOG saga)/Ssj Gohan (ROF saga).
Ssj3 Gotenks.
Ssj Gotenks.
Ginyu.
Mr. Buu.
Base Gohan (ROF saga)/Tagoma (post training).
Base Goku (Universal tournament)/Base Vegeta (Universal tournament)/Assault form Frost.
Base Future Trunks.
First form Frost/Base Cabba.

[GodVegetto91]

Merged Zamasu has to be getting pretty close to Beerus' power. That comment Goku made at the end of 53 surely will have been foreshadowing, rather than a completely random comment with no payoff.
At least I hope so.

What comment?

After defeating Zamasu Goku told Beerus that Zamasu could one day become as powerful as Beerus.

Dude this fusion will be even stronger than Whis! Beerus is a nobody in comparison to THAT.

[gofishus]

So, Black Goku admitted that SsjB Vegeta is on a completely different level of strength than his...
On the other hand, Goku hasn't trained, so we can state that SsjB Vegeta (post training) is the strongest character of the Black Goku saga so far.
Future Zamasu doesn't look that strong, he's just immortal and can't be hurt, so it's much easier for him.

Omni King.
The Great Priest.
Whis/Vados.
Beerus/Champa.

These are the strongest characters of the show.

Hit (max power).
SsjB Kkx10 Goku.
SsjB Vegeta (post training).
SsjR Black Goku.
SsjB Goku (angry, Black Goku saga).
Future Zamasu.
Black Goku (base form).
Hit (first improvement).
SsjB Goku (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga)/SsjB Goku (Universal tournament saga)/SsjB Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Copy-Vegeta/SsjB Vegeta (Universal tournament saga)/Enraged Ssj2 Trunks.
Golden Frieza.
SsjB Goku (ROF saga), SsjB Vegeta (ROF saga).
SsjG Goku.
Ssj2 Future Trunks (post training).
Hit (base power).
Beyond God Goku (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga), Beyond God Goku (Universal tournament saga)/Beyond God Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Copy-Vegeta, Beyond God Vegeta (Universal tournament saga).
Beyond God Goku (ROF saga), Beyond God Vegeta (ROF saga), Final form Frieza (ROF saga).

I think this is pretty much correct. One thing: Black Goku (base form) was shown to be stronger than SsjB Vegeta in episode 56.

Black Goku (against Future Trunks and Goku)/Ssj3 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Future Trunks.
Zamasu.
Ssj Goku (Universal Tournament)/Ssj Vegeta (Universal Tournament)/Magetta.
Ssj Future Trunks.
Ssj Cabba.
Final form Frost.
Enraged Ssj2 Vegeta.
First form Frieza (ROF saga).
Ultimate Gohan (BOG saga)/Ssj Gohan (ROF saga).
Ssj3 Gotenks.
Ssj Gotenks.
Ginyu.
Mr. Buu.
Base Gohan (ROF saga)/Tagoma (post training).
Base Goku (Universal tournament)/Base Vegeta (Universal tournament)/Assault form Frost.
Base Future Trunks.
First form Frost/Base Cabba.

Enraged SSJ2 Trunks (whatever his new form is called) is on par with SSJR Black, and certainly above future zamasu

[DBZ Macky]

This question might seem a bit late but how was BASE Goku Black able to kill Goku (In Zamasu's body) when Zamasu was ~SSJ2 Tier? How is Black stronger than SSJ2 in base?
He CAN be SSJ3 Tier in base when he fights Trunks, but only because of his haxxed ability, but this one is inexcusable.
And don't tell me that Goku wasn't used to Zamasu's body but Black was instantly used to Goku's body.
Two base theory confirmed?

[Zamasu55]

So, Black Goku admitted that SsjB Vegeta is on a completely different level of strength than his...
On the other hand, Goku hasn't trained, so we can state that SsjB Vegeta (post training) is the strongest character of the Black Goku saga so far.
Future Zamasu doesn't look that strong, he's just immortal and can't be hurt, so it's much easier for him.

Omni King.
The Great Priest.
Whis/Vados.
Beerus/Champa.

These are the strongest characters of the show.

Hit (max power).
SsjB Kkx10 Goku.
SsjB Vegeta (post training).
SsjR Black Goku.
SsjB Goku (angry, Black Goku saga).
Future Zamasu.
Black Goku (base form).
Hit (first improvement).
SsjB Goku (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga)/SsjB Goku (Universal tournament saga)/SsjB Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Copy-Vegeta/SsjB Vegeta (Universal tournament saga)/Enraged Ssj2 Trunks.
Golden Frieza.
SsjB Goku (ROF saga), SsjB Vegeta (ROF saga).
SsjG Goku.
Ssj2 Future Trunks (post training).
Hit (base power).
Beyond God Goku (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga), Beyond God Goku (Universal tournament saga)/Beyond God Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Copy-Vegeta, Beyond God Vegeta (Universal tournament saga).
Beyond God Goku (ROF saga), Beyond God Vegeta (ROF saga), Final form Frieza (ROF saga).

I think this is pretty much correct. One thing: Black Goku (base form) was shown to be stronger than SsjB Vegeta in episode 56.

Black Goku (against Future Trunks and Goku)/Ssj3 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Future Trunks.
Zamasu.
Ssj Goku (Universal Tournament)/Ssj Vegeta (Universal Tournament)/Magetta.
Ssj Future Trunks.
Ssj Cabba.
Final form Frost.
Enraged Ssj2 Vegeta.
First form Frieza (ROF saga).
Ultimate Gohan (BOG saga)/Ssj Gohan (ROF saga).
Ssj3 Gotenks.
Ssj Gotenks.
Ginyu.
Mr. Buu.
Base Gohan (ROF saga)/Tagoma (post training).
Base Goku (Universal tournament)/Base Vegeta (Universal tournament)/Assault form Frost.
Base Future Trunks.
First form Frost/Base Cabba.

Enraged SSJ2 Trunks (whatever his new form is called) is on par with SSJR Black, and certainly above future zamasu

It didn't look like that.

[ShinTenshin]

We have an easy way to compare SSROSÉ Black/Trunks. When Trunks use the Gallick Gun, he consume all his stamina and lost his Enraged form, it's clearly the best he can do for JUST several seconds.

And just after Black is mocking him "I might get a bruise".... So Trunks is FAR from Black Rosé level ! Black even says he need to wait the return of Goku if he want to be stronger, Trunks is unable to do that !

[Zamasu55]

We have an easy way to compare SSROSÉ Black/Trunks. When Trunks use the Gallick Gun, he consume all his stamina and lost his Enraged form, it's clearly the best he can do for JUST several seconds.

And just after Black is mocking him "I might get a bruise".... So Trunks is FAR from Black Rosé level ! Black even says he need to wait the return of Goku if he want to be stronger, Trunks is unable to do that !

Correct.

[buutenks]

So, still arguing about what level anime base Goku is at?

[Legion]

After episode 63:

Zeno
Zeno's bodyguards?
Grand Priest
Vados
Whis
Beerus/Champa/Merged Zamasu (?)

Hit
Goku ssjbkkx10
Vegeta
Black Goku
Trunks power up?
Goku
Future Zamasu (is immortal, but he's not stronger than Goku/Vegeta)
Golden Frieza

Don't care about the others.

[buutenks]

My take on the base god=ssg thing.

Since copy Vegeta failed to finger flick ssj3 Gotenks, he isnt as strong as ssg.

I am sure in earlier part of ROF arc, they tried to show that base form is perhaps at ssg level, but i guess they changed their mind and with the ssj3 gotenks thing, they pretty much showed that it cannot be so. And only ssj blue is above ssg.

And power rankings:

Merged Zamasu

ssj blue Vegeta
Hit
kkx10 ssj blue Goku/Black Rose(currently)
ssj blue Goku(currently)
ussj2 blue Trunks
ssj blue(u6)
Future Zamasu/Golden Freeza
ssj blue(rof)
ssg Goku
ssj2 Trunks(currently)

And yes, i did place ssj blue Vegeta on top muhahaha.

[ekrolo2]

Well, at least now we can drop any pretense of the anime's powers making the slightest lick of any sense. It is officially in "x character can do this for the plot and we will make no attempt to even kind of justify it in-universe!" territory.

[LightBing]

Well, at least now we can drop any pretense of the anime's powers making the slightest lick of any sense. It is officially in "x character can do this for the plot and we will make no attempt to even kind of justify it in-universe!" territory.

Only now?
The show is so much more enjoyable when you turn off your brain, in regards to power levels. It heightens the experience greatly, ever since the Kaioken incident I'm having a lot of fun, instead of scratching my head until I get a bald spot.
Now I'm all: "Punches! Cool. New transformation for Trunks! Me like watch fighting!"

Thankfully the manga exists for the sake of my sanity.

[ekrolo2]

Well, at least now we can drop any pretense of the anime's powers making the slightest lick of any sense. It is officially in "x character can do this for the plot and we will make no attempt to even kind of justify it in-universe!" territory.

Only now?
The show is so much more enjoyable when you turn off your brain, in regards to power levels. It heightens the experience greatly, ever since the Kaioken incident I'm having a lot of fun, instead of scratching my head until I get a bald spot.
Now I'm all: "Punches! Cool. New transformation for Trunks! Me like watch fighting!"

Thankfully the manga exists for the sake of my sanity.

If the manga came out more frequently I think the animes BS wouldn't bother me so much as I'd just not care or not even watch it period but that's sadly not an option.

[LightBing]

Well, at least now we can drop any pretense of the anime's powers making the slightest lick of any sense. It is officially in "x character can do this for the plot and we will make no attempt to even kind of justify it in-universe!" territory.

Only now?
The show is so much more enjoyable when you turn off your brain, in regards to power levels. It heightens the experience greatly, ever since the Kaioken incident I'm having a lot of fun, instead of scratching my head until I get a bald spot.
Now I'm all: "Punches! Cool. New transformation for Trunks! Me like watch fighting!"

Thankfully the manga exists for the sake of my sanity.

If the manga came out more frequently I think the animes BS wouldn't bother me so much as I'd just not care or not even watch it period but that's sadly not an option.

Even with it's problems the anime is worth watching, for example the Kaioken while nonsensical was pretty awesome. That's what the writers go for, awe moments instead of consistency.
You just have to conditioned yourself to disregard such developments. It gets easier with time.