Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

GS7X7 · Post by **GS7X7** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:14 pm

Anyway, I'm just going to be kinda lazy and borrow Kaboom's list.... It seems fairly good as far as power level lists go, and I don't want to bang my head for hours determining the strength or Super Buu....

Now for the end of DBZ....

Son Goku - 28,000,000
Vegeta - 26,500,000

Now for the end of DBGT. Since Goku does a lot of ass-kicking and fighting in GT, I'll give his base form a level-up of 40%, or X 1.4. Vegeta doesn't do much in GT til near the end, so I'll give him X 1.25. I'm going with a low-ball upgrade here.

Now, like a person playing Fallout Tactics it's back to the Calculator!

http://www.online-calculator.com/

GT Son Goku - 39,200,000
GT Vegeta - 33,125,000

Let's add them up for fusion.... I'll use my own personal formula here....

72,325,000 = Goku + Vegeta. But! Multiply by 50 and....

3,616,250,000.

Yeah! And he's just in base formula. Huh.... Maybe NOW Gogeta can kick his ass? Let's see....

180,812,500,000 SSJ1 Gogeta
542,437,500,000 SSJ4 Gogeta

Holy crap, that is one high power level! Now, let's divide by Vegeta's earth-wrecking G Gun at 18,000....

30,135,416.6666667

So that's about 30.135 MILLION times the force needed to blow up the earth!

And now for that most hated of quotes....

Bussani "You could try, with enough assumptions. For instance, if 18,000 really is enough to blow up the Earth, then going by the numbers they came up with for Superman's durability, you'd need more than 450 billion times as much power to do anything significant to Superman. Assuming battle powers increase linearly with energy like this, that would require a battle power of at least... ... ...what comes after a trillion? Ah, eight quadrillion (8,000,000,000,000,000). "

Gogeta's power level must be 14932.5959211891 X stronger to have any hope of killing Supes with a ki-based attack.

Hurray! That's.... kind of close-ish, compared to earlier estimates.

Now for speed/strength, I'm going to go back and compared my old estimates and.... (to be cont)

Ah, I'll give it a rest for now. I'll look into how physically strong, durable and fast he is later. I know my old estimate had him a lot lower than he is now, but he should be even more fast than Supes than previously. Regardless of how many more World Trade Centers he can juggle or how much damage he can take, speed is the one area where Gogeta can inflict pwnage on Supes.

Gyt Kaliba · Post by **Gyt Kaliba** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:18 pm

So his reliance on the sun is almost more of a nuisance than kryptonite, and if you somehow managed to keep him locked underground for a really long time, with no access to any sunlight, then he'd eventually be rendered completely ineffective...that's a little more balanced than I thought it was then. Thanks for the additional info guys. While I still don't really see myself becoming a Superman fan per say (though that upcoming movie looks awesome), it's still pretty cool to know some of this stuff.

TheMightyOzaru · Post by **TheMightyOzaru** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:24 pm

Well lets see here I have Goku at 42,000,000,000 by the end of Z in base and I have my own methods of calculating the Megaton output of the character. Its basically for every 4x increase in power there is a 10x increase in your megaton output. This puts base Goku's Megaton output at 6,111,804,397,340,000,000,000,000,000. Thats over 6 Octillion megatons of force. Multiply that by the SSJ4 multiplier, 4,000, and we get an output of 5,968,558,995,450,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Thats over 5 Decillion megatons of force. Thats enough to destroy a little over 40 solar systems in one go. Man these guys are stronger than I thought.... Now you might be thinking well damn Goku should beat Superman according to those numbers. Not so much. I decided to also calculate Sun Dipped Superman's power output. Now his base output is a bare minimum of 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 megatons. Apparently sun dipping has caused Superman's strength to to skyrocket 215,000,000x what it originally was. Naturally his power output should as well. This would put Superman's power output at 2,150,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 megatons. That's over 2 Undecillion megatons. Goku is done f***ed even with Kaioken x20 added on to his SSJ4 power. If we used GT Goku however the odds would certainly benefit Goku. SSJ4 GT Goku, IMO, wouldn't go any higher than 12 Quadrillion for his power level. Now that would be enough to take on a solar powered Superman but Superman can sun dip as long as he want's since Goku can't enter the sun nor can he destroy it without risking incinerating himself so Superman pretty much wins by default in that regard. Goku pretty much as no chance in a one on one with the man of steel.

GS7X7 · Post by **GS7X7** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:27 pm

Youtube comment response- "The strength measures of Goku are incorrect. 1. Shadowboxing with 40 tons is way harder than just lifting/pressing 40 tons. 2. Keep in mind that they are on a kai planet were the gravity could have been anywhere from10x to 100x, but lets assume it is 10x, making it 400 tons. 3. They have chosen to base his strength around a moment where Goku's strength is expressed pretty weak compared to other moments in the anime. Akia Toriyama was inconstant about showing Goku's strength."

Hmm....

Does anyone know how to calculate shadowboxing with say, 100 pounds, to the amount of weight that person could press or lift?

CaBrPi · Post by **CaBrPi** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:29 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:So his reliance on the sun is almost more of a nuisance than kryptonite, and if you somehow managed to keep him locked underground for a really long time, with no access to any sunlight, then he'd eventually be rendered completely ineffective...that's a little more balanced than I thought it was then. Thanks for the additional info guys. While I still don't really see myself becoming a Superman fan per say (though that upcoming movie looks awesome), it's still pretty cool to know some of this stuff.

It'd take a very long time for that to happen, though. Unless he used his heat vision for some reason. But the Kryptonite actually saps his power.

If you're interested, Superman: The Animated Series is really good. Not quite as good as its Batman counterpart, but definitely one of the best American cartoons out there.

But I think it's important not to just toss out fan conjecture here. No matter how "good" someone's numbers may seem... the video actually points out that they're worthless. Yeah, they're convenient for certain purposes, but this type of hypothetical situation is not one of them. Yes, it's possible for Goku to beat Superman, but Superman is so overwhelmingly more powerful (usually) that it'd take a lot of strangely convenient circumstances for Goku to actually win. And yes, Goku is pretty smart, but I'm not sure he's smart enough to actually put together Superman's solar power. I was kinda surprised that Goku was able to figure out the Kryptonite thing in the battle.

TheMightyOzaru · Post by **TheMightyOzaru** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:31 pm

GS7X7 wrote:Youtube comment response- "The strength measures of Goku are incorrect. 1. Shadowboxing with 40 tons is way harder than just lifting/pressing 40 tons. 2. Keep in mind that they are on a kai planet were the gravity could have been anywhere from10x to 100x, but lets assume it is 10x, making it 400 tons. 3. They have chosen to base his strength around a moment where Goku's strength is expressed pretty weak compared to other moments in the anime. Akia Toriyama was inconstant about showing Goku's strength."

Hmm....

Does anyone know how to calculate shadowboxing with say, 100 pounds, to the amount of weight that person could press or lift?

Ki and strength are 2 separate things. This is why Goku can bench over 40 tons and still destroy multiple planets with one attack. As for calculating Goku's physical strength, I wouldn't really waste time with it since these guys rely on almost nothing but Ki.

Gyt Kaliba · Post by **Gyt Kaliba** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:42 pm

CaBrPi wrote:It'd take a very long time for that to happen, though. Unless he used his heat vision for some reason. But the Kryptonite actually saps his power.

But I think it's important not to just toss out fan conjecture here. No matter how "good" someone's numbers may seem... the video actually points out that they're worthless. Yeah, they're convenient for certain purposes, but this type of hypothetical situation is not one of them. Yes, it's possible for Goku to beat Superman, but Superman is so overwhelmingly more powerful (usually) that it'd take a lot of strangely convenient circumstances for Goku to actually win. And yes, Goku is pretty smart, but I'm not sure he's smart enough to actually put together Superman's solar power. I was kinda surprised that Goku was able to figure out the Kryptonite thing in the battle.

Ah, so kryptonite really is still the bigger problem for him. That explains why I hadn't really heard about the sun thing at all before this I guess.

And yeah, a perfect example actually is that kryptonite that popped up in the video. Goku could have taken him right then and there if he were so inclined, so the video doesn't say outright that Goku can't beat Superman, just that it's highly unlikely due to how powered up Superman is, and because of Goku's personality as well.

If you're interested, Superman: The Animated Series is really good. Not quite as good as its Batman counterpart, but definitely one of the best American cartoons out there.

I am interested in seeing that eventually, as well as it's Batman opposite, and all the Justice League stuff. I really liked Batman Beyond, and I hear it's actually one of the weaker DC Animated shows (albeit still held in high regard apparently), so I should eventually check out all the others.

GS7X7 · Post by **GS7X7** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:50 pm

Closest thing I could find on shadowboxing....

http://training.fitness.com/weight-trai ... 29279.html

"I'm not just posting to post... I'm actually speaking from experience here, I used to shadowbox with dumbells 3 times a week!!! It is incredible how much stronger your punches will become! I was known for having "heavy hands".... I weighed about 185 lb at the time and i got up to 25 lb. dumbells! I would recommend a couple things if you are going to start! #1: Don't start off your boxing workouts with it! You need to STRETCH and Warm-up your back first!!! It definitely Can mess up your back! #2: Don't go any higher than 30's!!! I would probably stay at 25's to be safe! I did 3 sets of 50 reps each! The higher weight you go, the more you'll use your back...and thats not what you want! Stretching is the key tho!!!! Hope it helps!"

Hmm... so I'd say the amount one can shadowbox at max is about 1/10th what one can lift at max. Okay, it's not a perfect formula, but this is the best I can come up with based on this information.

dario03 · Post by **dario03** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:58 pm

I think Justice League and Justice League Unlimited were the best but it was all good. I think JLU just had the least slow episodes because some of the others had some episodes that I didn't like much. I would also recommend checking out the animated movies from both DC and marvel. Most of those are very good though there are some that are older ones like Superman/Brainiac that weren't good. However all the DC animated movies past 2006 in my opinion were great except Justice League New Frontier, and if you want to see something that mimics the comics almost exactly check out the Dark Knight Returns. Marvels animated movies had a few more duds in my opinion, Avengers, Hulk were great but Iron Man and Doctor strange were so so with Thor and Next Avengers being pretty forgettable.

GS7X7 wrote:Youtube comment response- "The strength measures of Goku are incorrect. 1. Shadowboxing with 40 tons is way harder than just lifting/pressing 40 tons. 2. Keep in mind that they are on a kai planet were the gravity could have been anywhere from10x to 100x, but lets assume it is 10x, making it 400 tons. 3. They have chosen to base his strength around a moment where Goku's strength is expressed pretty weak compared to other moments in the anime. Akia Toriyama was inconstant about showing Goku's strength."

Hmm....

Does anyone know how to calculate shadowboxing with say, 100 pounds, to the amount of weight that person could press or lift?

I'm pretty sure they based the 40 ton lift at base (40t x 4000 is 160,000t) and he was simply holding the weight up not shadowboxing when in base. Actually you can argue that he wasn't holding it up since he was hunched over with his arms down. As for the gravity I think the 40 tons was 40 tons, if I was somehow on a planet with 10x gravity I wouldn't say hey hand me that 20lb weight which is 200lbs here I would just say hand me that 200lb weight. But either way you just can't get Goku to any lifting strength that actually matters compared to Superman, Because really it doesn't matter if Goku was 100x stronger than they said because like I said thats still something crazy like comparing a baby to the whole worlds population. You could make Goku a trillion times stronger than they did and it would still be nothing in comparison to Superman's strength.

GS7X7 · Post by **GS7X7** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:52 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyl97TG8jbA

28:59

Part of the problem with the measurement is that it relies solely on Goku's base strength at the time he was with South Kai. At that point they put him at 40 tons. I know the whole "baby comparison strength" with Supes, but I'm still curious for a more exact number on Goku.

GS7X7 · Post by **GS7X7** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:44 pm

I don't know the exact time of the 28:47 manga panel, but I think it's after the Cell Games. Again, I'm going to use Kaboom's power levels. (aside from his fusion formula)

1. Goku's base is 19,650,000. Although Screwattack gave it 40 tons, I'll X10 that for the "Shadowboxing factor." Thus that should be 1,600,000 by this formula. But make it about 100X stronger for Vegeta's added power, fusion and....

2. And that becomes about 160,000,000 for Gogeta. Give a 1.325X powerup for Goku + vegeta's progress and that becomes...

212,000,000

However...

Gogeta lift:
212,000,000
Superman lift:
>6,600,000,000,000,000,000 tons
"Thats like comparing the strength of a baby to the combined strength of all ~7,000,000,000 people on Earth. (seriously)"

Alright, so....

Superman is now 31,132,075.4716981 X superior in terms of punching ability. (or at least sheer lifting power) A better example would now be one athletic human compared to the entire human race, but that's hardly an improvement over a baby taking on the whole human race.

Good God, Superman is ridiculously powerful!

I give up calculating, this is all too speculative and the only thing Gogeta has on Supes from even the least generous calculations seems to be better speed.

So, from my estimates I figured out...

1. Usage of Kaboom's list as a fan guide for estimates. My own estimates for Vegeta is about 75%-80% as strong as Goku in base, and a usage of "combined strength of 20 multiplied by 50" for the fusion formula. Again, this is pure speculation, but estimates of fans don't seem to go higher than a multiplication of 100.

2. Dividing power level by 18000 to get "earth destroying ki power for Gallic Gun."

3. SSJ4 Gogeta can outrun Supes, yay.

4. Gogeta's punching level is ridiculously less than Goku's, Goku and Vegeta would need to be maybe 16-20 million X tougher to punch Supes unconscious.

5. Here we go! So Gogeta wants a punching match? Well, assuming 16 million X is all he needs....

8,679,000,000,000,000,000
So about 8,700,000 million BILLIONS worth of power level!

6. But as ki attacks are stronger, if he wanted to hurt Supes with a Gallic Gun....

8,100,000,000,000,013
8,100 BILLIONS is all that's needed for power level.

7. There's no point in Gogeta trying to outpunch him. I don't recall the exact formula for durability, but Gogeta should be about 1/2000th as durable.

In conclusion, to sum up all my posts.......

1. Gogeta is faster than Supes.

2. SSJ4 Gogeta = 542,437,500,000 The more generous estimates would double my fusion formula, and make that... 1,084,875,000,000, or about 1.1 trillion Power Level. I'm going with the lower estimate, but with the higher estimate just make everything 2 X easier for Gogeta.

3. After training about 2000X for durability, Gogeta is roughly equal to Supes. However, his speed is so RIDICULOUSLY high at this point, Supes shouldn't even be able to touch him.

4. After training about 14932.5959211891 X for ki attacks, Gogeta's ki attacks should damage Supes with a Gallic Gun. At this stage the Dragon Fist may be more than enough. Also, Supes should not even be able to see Gogeta at this point.

Further training for Gogeta beyond this level is largely unnecessary- a barrage of ki attacks, and speed, should eventually wear down Supes.

5. So, Goku and Vegeta just need to become about 7,500 X as powerful each in the Afterlife before Gogeta can kick Supes's ass using ki attacks. If the more generous fusion formula is applied, that number becomes a "mere" 3250.

6. As it is, Gogeta... could still (possibly) win by exploiting his likely superior speed (and teleporting)

7. However, if Goku wants to win one on one, no fusion and no fancy tricks, he needs to become roughly 1.5 MILLION times as powerful!

My estimates are all based on speculations, formulas and some guesswork, but regardless, Superman has a LOT of power and Goku as he is at the end of GT is still nowhere near close.

I'm no MIT math wizard and, although I'm fairly confident in the power levels I gave Goku and Vegeta (based on my GT powerup to Kaboom's forula) and my fusion formulas, I'm not sure of an exact manner in which to apply durability, punch power and speed based on Power Levels.

I'm sure somebody can probably come up with a better formula to apply and probably will at some point.

(the ki formula's the easiest to calculate since we know Vegeta's exact PL at that time, and it's the lowest known level needed to blow up the earth)

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:19 am

GS7X7 wrote:1. Shadowboxing with 40 tons is way harder than just lifting/pressing 40 tons.

That's probably irrelevant, since Goku said he wouldn't be able to move when weighed down by 40 tons.

2. Keep in mind that they are on a kai planet were the gravity could have been

That's incorrect. They were on planet Heaven. And even if Heaven, for some reason, had enormous gravity, 40 tons of weight is 40 tons of weight, regardless of gravity. I seriously doubt Toriyama would be so obtuse as to say it was 40 tons of mass and that Goku and the kids reading were supposed to work out how much weight that would be after taking higher gravity into account.

@CaBrPi: I feel like you have a couple of things backwards. In most continuities, being exposed to red star radiation does indeed strip Supes of his powers; the way it's often described is that it replaces the yellow star energy he's stored up. As for (green) Kryptonite, in most continuities it doesn't exactly stop his powers at all--the radiation just kills/hurts him. I mean, he loses strength as a result of, you know, slowly dying, but it doesn't technically strip him of his powers. Gold Kryptonite does, though.

CaBrPi · Post by **CaBrPi** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:50 am

Bussani wrote:@CaBrPi: I feel like you have a couple of things backwards. In most continuities, being exposed to red star radiation does indeed strip Supes of his powers; the way it's often described is that it replaces the yellow star energy he's stored up. As for (green) Kryptonite, in most continuities it doesn't exactly stop his powers at all--the radiation just kills/hurts him. I mean, he loses strength as a result of, you know, slowly dying, but it doesn't technically strip him of his powers. Gold Kryptonite does, though.

That's probable. I'm more familiar with Batman, but I'm not a huge comics fan in general.

dario03 · Post by **dario03** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:02 am

-They change how much stuff affects Superman all the time, at times red sunlight depowers and even hurts him while doing it but the pain stops once hes depowered (think thats how the animated series was) and at other times he still has powers while near it (heck 1 Superman and Superboy Prime flew through the red giant of Krypton and survived). Kryptonite is kind of the same way, sometimes it just causes extreme pain and other times it actually weakens him (like how in the animated series I believe it weakened him but in the movie from a few years back it caused him pain but he still lifted that island into space while being surrounded by the stuff). But he usually recovers pretty fast when he gets away from either thing.

-I don't think there should be a "shadow boxing" multiplier. He wasn't shadow boxing when he was at base and his SS4 multiplier is 4000 which is how they come up with 160,000 tons. Now you could say he should be able to lift more because he should of became stronger through training but 160,000 tons is about half the weight of a very large sky scrapper (empire state ~385,000tons) and that building was big but it didn't look really big.

-I'm also not convinced Gogeta would be for sure faster. Superman did travel 25 light years in what appears to be minutes before. Like I said before I don't think they used that because we're not sure of how much time passed but since nothing really changed while waiting I think 5 minutes is a decent guess which would put Superman at ~2,600,000x the speed of light. And Superman is usually depicted as being close to the Flash in speed and the Flash evacuated a city in .00001 microseconds which would of required him to go well over 8,000,000,000,000x the speed of light (more likely well into ##,000,000,000,000x).

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:27 am

I'll second the Superman animated series recommendation. I'm not even that big of a Supes fan, especially when that show was new. But I was surprised how much I liked it. I'm sure my general exposure to and appreciation of Clancy Brown, Tim Daley, and Dana Delaney growing up helped. It was the first DC animated series I bought, actually. Justice League is also really good.

TheMightyOzaru · Post by **TheMightyOzaru** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:59 am

I tried watching the animated series and it was ok but I only got like 10 episodes in before I just moved on to something else. I just wish there was a series where Superman learned how to use his powers over a period of time. At least then he would struggle physically to a degree. Superman also needs better villains. Darkseid just looks incredibly stupid, no offence to any Darkseid fans.

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:18 am

TheMightyOzaru wrote:I just wish there was a series where Superman learned how to use his powers over a period of time.

Err... yeah.

dario03 · Post by **dario03** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:41 am

I wish they had made a movie or mini series out of the DC Universe Online cinematic. Could of been quite a bit different than the usual way that DC portrays itself in animation and I like the actual computer animation. I would of made it as a movie but then broke it up into a mini series and played it on TV right before the game came out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Nf-m6WGl4

Mewzard · Post by **Mewzard** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:45 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:I tried watching the animated series and it was ok but I only got like 10 episodes in before I just moved on to something else. I just wish there was a series where Superman learned how to use his powers over a period of time. At least then he would struggle physically to a degree. Superman also needs better villains. Darkseid just looks incredibly stupid, no offence to any Darkseid fans.

You just mean one of the best characters created by Jack Kirby (one of the most legendary comic creators of all time) in his Magnum Opus (Jack Kirby's Fourth World). Offense? >_>

Written/drawn as he was by Jack Kirby, he was a great villain. Cunning, scheming, yet he could wreck anyone who faced him by himself with the Omega Effect (which he could control with pinpoint accuracy, and even phase through solid matter in pursuit of his foe, which he could move across space, through time, erase from existence, bring them back, or even alter their form at his whim). Being the leader of a planet of Evil Gods does have that advantage. There's a foe Goku could face instead of ol' Bilsy the Cat.

Yeah, too many writers have misused him to make Superman look good. But when he's done right, he's my favorite comic villain (and is generally considered one of the best ever created by many).

Superman: TAS does get better as time goes on, but if you'd prefer to see him in a setting where there's more threats for him to deal with that he can't always beat by himself, Justice League is always a good option (I enjoyed the show personally, it had a good variety of characters).

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:30 pm

I think the problem with Darkseid (at least as he was portrayed in Superman: The Animated Series, Justice League, and Justice League: Unlimited) is that the few times he would get his hands dirty the fights weren't particularly good. At all. This is something the dramaticization of the Dragon Ball cartoons got right, giving the villains weight both in the story and in the culminization of the story through well done battles. All of Darkseid's battles with Superman were awfully storyboard, directed, and animated. All that build up--three times, even--and nothing but duds.

Kanzenshuu

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