Fanmanga - Dragon Ball New Age

[dbzfan7]

Yeah and it was an ass pull for Krillin. Trunks has just shown incredible power.
For Goku, Kuririn, Dende, Spopovitch, Yamu, and Vegeta?...

Lets see here. Goku who is extremely talented as a kid gets a little boost. S & Y just have some extreme durability that Vegeta never got for some reason. Vegeta only gets a little power up to match Goku, and what does Krillin and Gohan get. A little power up that says "Fuck you logic" and out of nowhere starts bringing out more an more power out of nowhere after it's done. Not even the Elder Kaioshin's ritual could do that.

Sure, who knows?

I'll put that next to Cold can transform but didn't and Freeza's mom was a hooker.

Oozaru was symbolizing Goku's hidden power in the manga/anime. Super Saiyan Full Power draws the hidden power of the Saiyan to their limits. Gohan transforms into a Super Saiyan 2 by triggering his hidden powers through his rage. Super Saiyan 3 & Super Saiyan 4 draw the hidden power of the Saiyan to its utmost limits.

The Oozaru was a symbol of power. You can't have SSFP draw hidden power to the limits and SSJ3 and SSJ4 do the same. Gohan always had rage boosts so for him it makes sense. SSJ3 doesn't do that or else it can't have a multiplier. Gohan would always be stronger than Goku without training in SSJ3 then as his hidden power is greater. The SEG gave it a multiplier and got rid of the hidden power crap.

No, Goku & Vegeta were born with extremely low battle power compared to Trunks, or even Gohan.

Vegeta was born with a higher power than Gohan. Trunks is part of the tailes generation which is a different kind of potential than what Gohan got.

It always gives huge gains, but not over x400 increases. Especially when Goku is at the level he was.

Goku trained with the equivalent of Kid Boo. It's not that hard to see that if Piccolo could do something just as silly.

Piccolo, who had possibly more room to get stronger, merged with Nail, who also had possibly more room to get stronger. So this new Piccolo should have much more room than old Piccolo & Nail combined, proven by his gains in the Artificial Humans arc.

He was weaker than Goku's base, and then vastly surpassed it while training with the same guy. If Piccolo can do that, Goku sure as hell can with an even stronger opponent.

And what about Goku, Kuririn, Dende, Spopovitch, Yamu, and Vegeta? If they didn't have their hidden powers drawn out, we wouldn't know anything about them. Trunks can't draw hidden power through his rage, but he does have hidden power, like everyone.

Except for the fact that if it worked like that then everyone would just get the same treatment Gohan got from the Elder Kaioshin. Goku wouldn't bother with SSJ3 as it's a terrible form. Vegeta especially after his bullshit boost would do the same thing. Yet nobody goes to this guy because....Nobody thinks "This guy boosts powers beyond the need for transformations, but I won't use it for no reason."

[TheGmGoken]

I thought one of the Daizenshuu said the Saiyans with tails(Half Saiyans) had hidden power while SSaiyans(Half) without tails are born much stronger.

[Malik_DBNA]

[goku the krump dancer]

Oh cool, Gohan knows IT..

[TheGmGoken]

Bout time someone besides Goku(that's a Hero fighter) used SHukodan Ido

[Malik_DBNA]

Bout time someone besides Goku(that's a Hero fighter) used SHukodan Ido

I thought it made sense for at least Gohan to know how (unlike Absalon Pan, who learns it out of nowhere)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Lets see here. Goku who is extremely talented as a kid gets a little boost. S & Y just have some extreme durability that Vegeta never got for some reason. Vegeta only gets a little power up to match Goku, and what does Krillin and Gohan get. A little power up that says "Fuck you logic" and out of nowhere starts bringing out more an more power out of nowhere after it's done. Not even the Elder Kaioshin's ritual could do that.

Spopovitch was originally weaker than Mr. Satan, but surpassed Videl once he got the power-up. Vegeta's power-up, small or not, is a power-up.

I'll put that next to Cold can transform but didn't and Freeza's mom was a hooker.

Cold transforming is a contradiction, so no. And as for Freeza's mom being a hooker, it's too ridiculous, but not impossible.

The Oozaru was a symbol of power. You can't have SSFP draw hidden power to the limits and SSJ3 and SSJ4 do the same. Gohan always had rage boosts so for him it makes sense. SSJ3 doesn't do that or else it can't have a multiplier. Gohan would always be stronger than Goku without training in SSJ3 then as his hidden power is greater.

Or, there are multiple limits/sets of hidden powers. For example, a part of Gohan's hidden power is used for training gains, another for his special rage boost, another part is used for Super Saiyan, etc.

The SEG gave it a multiplier and got rid of the hidden power crap.

It just didn't mention it, because the multipliers are all that it gave to us for the Super Saiyan forms.

Vegeta was born with a higher power than Gohan.

Source? Because when Vegeta heard that Gohan had a BP over 1.000, he came up with the theory that Saiyans & Earthlings make super-Saiyans (not Super Saiyans), which implies that no normal Saiyan was ever born with such power.

Trunks is part of the tailes generation which is a different kind of potential than what Gohan got.

Which is a great reason to assume that Trunks has more dormant power than Gohan (but I don't believe so).

Goku trained with the equivalent of Kid Boo. It's not that hard to see that if Piccolo could do something just as silly.

He was weaker than Goku's base, and then vastly surpassed it while training with the same guy. If Piccolo can do that, Goku sure as hell can with an even stronger opponent.

Well, I disagree.

Except for the fact that if it worked like that then everyone would just get the same treatment Gohan got from the Elder Kaioshin. Goku wouldn't bother with SSJ3 as it's a terrible form. Vegeta especially after his bullshit boost would do the same thing. Yet nobody goes to this guy because....Nobody thinks "This guy boosts powers beyond the need for transformations, but I won't use it for no reason."

Rou Kaioshin drew Gohan's hidden powers because he freed him from the Z-Sword. He doesn't have any reason to do it for anyone else.

[Malik_DBNA]

Except for the fact that if it worked like that then everyone would just get the same treatment Gohan got from the Elder Kaioshin. Goku wouldn't bother with SSJ3 as it's a terrible form. Vegeta especially after his bullshit boost would do the same thing. Yet nobody goes to this guy because....Nobody thinks "This guy boosts powers beyond the need for transformations, but I won't use it for no reason."

I disagree that EVERYONE would do it, especially Goku and Vegeta. Goku and Vegeta like to gain their power on their own, so they definitely wouldn't do it. Goku disliked having to rely on everyone just to turn into a SSJG, and neither of them were too keen on fusing against Kid Boo, even stating that they like to rely on themselves. Vegeta even stated later that he hated that he stooped so low as to allow Babidi to release his dormant strength and close the gap between him and Goku. Trunks and Goten likely wouldn't do it because they, quite frankly, don't really care about being lifelong warriors at the time. Piccolo wouldn't for reasons similar to Goku and Vegeta (he's even said before fusing with both Nail and Kami that he disliked the idea). Oob seems to be able to draw out his strength himself, so their would be little need after training with Goku.

Anytime these ridiculous boosts happen, it's been in response to something, being a sort of last resort. The Elder Kai's Unlock on Gohan was a last resort should Gotenks fail to destroy Boo and because Goku was no longer there to protect Earth. Fusing into Vegetto was a last resort (hell, the Potara fusion at all is a last resort). SSJG was done because it was frankly the only way to defeat Bills. Each time Piccolo fused with another Namekian, it was in response to a powerful villain. The same can be said of the Elder Namekian's latent power unlock.

Simply because it CAN be done, doesn't mean everyone would do it. I know I can go skydiving, but I don't plan on doing it (I'll be darned if you get me on a plane).

[dbzfan7]

Spopovitch was originally weaker than Mr. Satan, but surpassed Videl once he got the power-up. Vegeta's power-up, small or not, is a power-up

Both were minuscule.

Cold transforming is a contradiction, so no. And as for Freeza's mom being a hooker, it's too ridiculous, but not impossible.

You wouldn't believe how many times I tried to say the first one isn't true and yet people still think it is

Or, there are multiple limits/sets of hidden powers. For example, a part of Gohan's hidden power is used for training gains, another for his special rage boost, another part is used for Super Saiyan, etc.

Or maybe there aren't and they got rid of that idea as it wouldn't make sense. Gohan would always be stronger than Goku if SSJ3 brought hidden power to it's limits.

It just didn't mention it, because the multipliers are all that it gave to us for the Super Saiyan forms.

Or it got rid of that stupid idea as like I said before Gohan would be stronger than Goku as an SSJ3 forever as his hidden power is greater.

Source? Because when Vegeta heard that Gohan had a BP over 1.000, he came up with the theory that Saiyans & Earthlings make super-Saiyans (not Super Saiyans), which implies that no normal Saiyan was ever born with such power.

Vegeta was born from the King of All Saiyans who was the strongest before the planet blew up. Chances are Vegeta had a bigger power level because of it. Vegeta isn't a normal Saiyan. He's a Saiyan Elite. Hell in the special he mops the floor with all the Saibamen effortlessly.

Which is a great reason to assume that Trunks has more dormant power than Gohan (but I don't believe so)..

The Tailes Generation are called super prodigies. This is because they got a ridiculous amount of power at their young age without training too hard. They are more like Super versions of Goku and Vegeta. They don't really have massive dormant power as they already make quicker gains than full bloods and started off at a much higher level. This was basically the trade off.

Rou Kaioshin drew Gohan's hidden powers because he freed him from the Z-Sword. He doesn't have any reason to do it for anyone else.

How about so they have the power to protect the universe from big threats. Hell anyone can get him to do it if they promise him something dirty. So there is no excuse why no one else wouldn't get themselves a massive power boost like that if they could.

Except for the fact that if it worked like that then everyone would just get the same treatment Gohan got from the Elder Kaioshin. Goku wouldn't bother with SSJ3 as it's a terrible form. Vegeta especially after his bullshit boost would do the same thing. Yet nobody goes to this guy because....Nobody thinks "This guy boosts powers beyond the need for transformations, but I won't use it for no reason.

I disagree that EVERYONE would do it, especially Goku and Vegeta. Goku and Vegeta like to gain their power on their own, so they definitely wouldn't do it. Goku disliked having to rely on everyone just to turn into a SSJG, and neither of them were too keen on fusing against Kid Boo, even stating that they like to rely on themselves. Vegeta even stated later that he hated that he stooped so low as to allow Babidi to release his dormant strength and close the gap between him and Goku. Trunks and Goten likely wouldn't do it because they, quite frankly, don't really care about being lifelong warriors at the time. Piccolo wouldn't for reasons similar to Goku and Vegeta (he's even said before fusing with both Nail and Kami that he disliked the idea). Oob seems to be able to draw out his strength himself, so their would be little need after training with Goku.

Anytime these ridiculous boosts happen, it's been in response to something, being a sort of last resort. The Elder Kai's Unlock on Gohan was a last resort should Gotenks fail to destroy Boo and because Goku was no longer there to protect Earth. Fusing into Vegetto was a last resort (hell, the Potara fusion at all is a last resort). SSJG was done because it was frankly the only way to defeat Bills. Each time Piccolo fused with another Namekian, it was in response to a powerful villain. The same can be said of the Elder Namekian's latent power unlock.

Simply because it CAN be done, doesn't mean everyone would do it. I know I can go skydiving, but I don't plan on doing it (I'll be darned if you get me on a plane).

Except for the fact that Goku already has done something like this before. He wouldn't have a problem with it as it's his own power being let loose and not everyone helping him. Vegeta wanted to be SSJ God and I don't see why he wouldn't take the route that draws out his power. Especially since the bullshit boost made him stronger than Goku. The only thing stopping them is the Elder Kaioshins perverted requests in return.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Both were minuscule.

Because Spopovitch was a weakling, and Vegeta had already gained immense power through his extreme training after years. Even Babidi said that he drew Vegeta's dormant power beyond its limits.

Or maybe there aren't and they got rid of that idea as it wouldn't make sense. Gohan would always be stronger than Goku if SSJ3 brought hidden power to it's limits.

Like I said, multiple limits. The Super Sacred Water was supposed to bring out all of Goku's dormant power, yet it didn't.

Or it got rid of that stupid idea as like I said before Gohan would be stronger than Goku as an SSJ3 forever as his hidden power is greater.

You can disagree if you want with that, and disregard it if you want, but don't say that the guides disregarded it because it wasn't mentioned. It wasn't mentioned in SEG, because there wasn't any place to mention it at all. We don't have a paragraph about Super Saiyan 3 like in D7, we only have a sentence. Combining the D7 & SEG statements, Super Saiyan 3 brings out the dormant power of the Saiyan to its utmost limits, which is 400 times greater than his base power. It also implies that the dormant power of the warrior develops as he trains.

And no, SS3 Gohan wouldn't always be stronger than Goku, since he wasn't always stronger than Goku when he was angry.

Vegeta was born from the King of All Saiyans who was the strongest before the planet blew up. Chances are Vegeta had a bigger power level because of it. Vegeta isn't a normal Saiyan. He's a Saiyan Elite. Hell in the special he mops the floor with all the Saibamen effortlessly.

Goku is considered a Low-Class, Nappa an Elite, Vegeta a Super Elite, and Gohan a super-Saiyan. Gohan sounds more special.

The Tailes Generation are called super prodigies. This is because they got a ridiculous amount of power at their young age without training too hard. They are more like Super versions of Goku and Vegeta. They don't really have massive dormant power as they already make quicker gains than full bloods and started off at a much higher level. This was basically the trade off.

That's your opinion.

How about so they have the power to protect the universe from big threats. Hell anyone can get him to do it if they promise him something dirty. So there is no excuse why no one else wouldn't get themselves a massive power boost like that if they could.

Because Goku & Vegeta wouldn't want such a massive boost from such a cheap way. Goku & Vegeta used the Super Sacred Water & Babidi to power them up because it was an emergency for both (Goku had to kill Daimao, and Vegeta wouldn't meet Goku again). Same for Super Saiyan God. Plus, what Malik said.

Vegeta wanted to be SSJ God

Because he was jealous that Goku tried it and he didn't. Do you really expect Vegeta crying from joy once he kicks SS3 Goku's ass in Super Saiyan God or through the Ultimate power-up? Same for Goku.


I think that the reason we disagree is because we have different interpretations of dormant/hidden power/potential. Here is mine:

Dormant power is a power that everyone has. Through training, the fighter gains more & more power from his dormant power, but his dormant power also increases through ki training, along with his battle power. So, without ki training, the dormant power will eventually run out.
Most Earthlings don't have very big dormant power (like Chaozu & Muten Roshi), while some of them have extraordinary big amounts (like Kuririn, Tenshinhan, and Yamcha).
Namekian Warriors have more dormant power than the Earthlings, with their dormant power increasing by many times if they merge with someone else, which grants them extraordinary gains through training.
Saiyans have even more dormant power (described by Freeza & Beers as bottomless), with Earthling/Saiyan Halflings having even more dormant power, especially Gohan, who has even more amounts available to use through his rage. The Saiyans have some extra amounts of dormant power, usable only through their transformations (Oozaru, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Golden Oozaru, and Super Saiyan 4), and their near-death power-ups (the transformation dormant power grows with the base battle power, while the near-death power-up dormant power is limited). The more transformations they have achieved, and the stronger they are, the more power they will gain through magical sources that draw out dormant power (so, Ultimate Gohan would be stronger if he could turn Super Saiyan 3, and even stronger if he could turn Super Saiyan 4).

[Malik_DBNA]

Dormant power is a power that everyone has. Through training, the fighter gains more & more power from his dormant power, but his dormant power also increases through ki training, along with his battle power. So, without ki training, the dormant power will eventually run out.
Most Earthlings don't have very big dormant power (like Chaozu & Muten Roshi), while some of them have extraordinary big amounts (like Kuririn, Tenshinhan, and Yamcha).
Namekian Warriors have more dormant power than the Earthlings, with their dormant power increasing by many times if they merge with someone else, which grants them extraordinary gains through training.
Saiyans have even more dormant power (described by Freeza & Beers as bottomless), with Earthling/Saiyan Halflings having even more dormant power, especially Gohan, who has even more amounts available to use through his rage. The Saiyans have some extra amounts of dormant power, usable only through their transformations (Oozaru, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Golden Oozaru, and Super Saiyan 4), and their near-death power-ups (the transformation dormant power grows with the base battle power, while the near-death power-up dormant power is limited). The more transformations they have achieved, and the stronger they are, the more power they will gain through magical sources that draw out dormant power (so, Ultimate Gohan would be stronger if he could turn Super Saiyan 3, and even stronger if he could turn Super Saiyan 4).

This is pretty much my take on the dormant strength of DB Characters, especially the part where both Bills and Freeza state that saiyans have bottomless wells of strength.

[dbzfan7]

Because Spopovitch was a weakling, and Vegeta had already gained immense power through his extreme training after years. Even Babidi said that he drew Vegeta's dormant power beyond its limits.

Which if that were true it would he would reach a higher SSJ level. But apparently Vegeta's potential power isn't that big, which gets fucked over in the recent movie.

Like I said, multiple limits. The Super Sacred Water was supposed to bring out all of Goku's dormant power, yet it didn't.

You can't have something like that by the end of the series. SSFP can't be considered a form that brings hidden power to the limit if the higher up forms apparently do that

You can disagree if you want with that, and disregard it if you want, but don't say that the guides disregarded it because it wasn't mentioned. It wasn't mentioned in SEG, because there wasn't any place to mention it at all. We don't have a paragraph about Super Saiyan 3 like in D7, we only have a sentence. Combining the D7 & SEG statements, Super Saiyan 3 brings out the dormant power of the Saiyan to its utmost limits, which is 400 times greater than his base power. It also implies that the dormant power of the warrior develops as he trains.

And no, SS3 Gohan wouldn't always be stronger than Goku, since he wasn't always stronger than Goku when he was angry.

First off you can't have both as not everyone can possibly have 400x base as maximum hidden potential. Secondly yes Gohan would always be stronger as if SSJ3 brought hidden power out to it's limit then he would be always stronger as it would bring out his hidden power which is greater than Goku's power

Goku is considered a Low-Class, Nappa an Elite, Vegeta a Super Elite, and Gohan a super-Saiyan. Gohan sounds more special.

Goku was trained by gods, if he wasn't he would be a nobody. Gohan would also be a nobody if he didn't train with Piccolo or Goku. Vegeta was born a super elite and was already powerful. Gohan even after being dedicated to his training in the future couldn't even surpass Yardrat Goku. So on his own he's nothing.

Because Goku & Vegeta wouldn't want such a massive boost from such a cheap way. Goku & Vegeta used the Super Sacred Water & Babidi to power them up because it was an emergency for both (Goku had to kill Daimao, and Vegeta wouldn't meet Goku again). Same for Super Saiyan God. Plus, what Malik said.

Goku still didn't care or complain about using the Super God Water. Nowhere was it said he was disappointed that he had to rely on it. Vegeta also didn't care about being powered up by SSJ God

Because he was jealous that Goku tried it and he didn't. Do you really expect Vegeta crying from joy once he kicks SS3 Goku's ass in Super Saiyan God or through the Ultimate power-up? Same for Goku.

SSJ God is temporary and Vegeta didn't have any problem with wanting to be one. He was jealous because Goku gets the ultimate power.

I think that the reason we disagree is because we have different interpretations of dormant/hidden power/potential. Here is mine:

Dormant power is a power that everyone has. Through training, the fighter gains more & more power from his dormant power, but his dormant power also increases through ki training, along with his battle power. So, without ki training, the dormant power will eventually run out.
Most Earthlings don't have very big dormant power (like Chaozu & Muten Roshi), while some of them have extraordinary big amounts (like Kuririn, Tenshinhan, and Yamcha).
Namekian Warriors have more dormant power than the Earthlings, with their dormant power increasing by many times if they merge with someone else, which grants them extraordinary gains through training.
Saiyans have even more dormant power (described by Freeza & Beers as bottomless), with Earthling/Saiyan Halflings having even more dormant power, especially Gohan, who has even more amounts available to use through his rage. The Saiyans have some extra amounts of dormant power, usable only through their transformations (Oozaru, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Golden Oozaru, and Super Saiyan 4), and their near-death power-ups (the transformation dormant power grows with the base battle power, while the near-death power-up dormant power is limited). The more transformations they have achieved, and the stronger they are, the more power they will gain through magical sources that draw out dormant power (so, Ultimate Gohan would be stronger if he could turn Super Saiyan 3, and even stronger if he could turn Super Saiyan 4).

Or the fact that Toriyama wrote on the seat of his pants so any previous term for transformations pretty much gets scrapped. The reason why these potential boosts and shit kept coming back was because Toriyama didn't plan things out. Hell the Potara earrings and the ROSAT are the definition of ass pull.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Which if that were true it would he would reach a higher SSJ level. But apparently Vegeta's potential power isn't that big, which gets fucked over in the recent movie.

The rage boost that Vegeta gets has nothing at all to do with dormant power. That's a fact, not an opinion. That's what happened:

But if you push yourself to become that strong, you'll collapse after! [referring to Vegeta's rage boost].

Vegeta just used all his power at once, which amplified his power, but drained all of his power at once.

Goku was trained by gods, if he wasn't he would be a nobody. Gohan would also be a nobody if he didn't train with Piccolo or Goku. Vegeta was born a super elite and was already powerful. Gohan even after being dedicated to his training in the future couldn't even surpass Yardrat Goku. So on his own he's nothing.

Not really, Gohan was stronger than Goku & Piccolo combined without any training. Goku & Piccolo just taught him how to use his already incredible power, and how to develop it. Vegeta was also most likely trained by King Vegeta or some other Saiyan(s), since he was a soldier. It is also stated that Vegeta's power is so high because he was constantly fighting & getting near-death power-ups.

BTW, Vegeta's statement for Gohan makes it very clear that Gohan isn't normal.

Chapter: 204 (DBZ 10), P12.1-2
Vegeta: “At any rate, the battle power of Kakarot’s son is unusually high, even by the standards of Saiyan children.”
Nappa: “Maybe his reading was wrong.”
Vegeta: “No, it wasn’t wrong. Raditz really took a large amount of damage from that brat’s attack. It seems that mixing Saiyan and Earthling blood begets a powerful hybrid.”

Goku still didn't care or complain about using the Super God Water. Nowhere was it said he was disappointed that he had to rely on it.

Goku was different at that point, but the current Goku wouldn't be happy about it.

Vegeta also didn't care about being powered up by SSJ God

Because it wasn't permanent.

[dbzfan7]

The rage boost that Vegeta gets has nothing at all to do with dormant power. That's a fact, not an opinion. That's what happened

But if you push yourself to become that strong, you'll collapse after! [referring to Vegeta's rage boost].

Vegeta just used all his power at once, which amplified his power, but drained all of his power at once.

How is having your SSJ2 or SSJ form being stronger than SSJ3 Goku not hidden power. Where did that quote come from. Secondly you can't become over 5x stronger by pushing yourself, that's bullshit.

Not really, Gohan was stronger than Goku & Piccolo combined without any training. Goku & Piccolo just taught him how to use his already incredible power, and how to develop it. Vegeta was also most likely trained by King Vegeta or some other Saiyan(s), since he was a soldier. It is also stated that Vegeta's power is so high because he was constantly fighting & getting near-death power-ups.

BTW, Vegeta's statement for Gohan makes it very clear that Gohan isn't normal.

Vegeta is a Super Elite so it's pretty logical for him to be born with a a higher than normal battle power. Gohan being a half breed also was born with a higher power. We have no way to confirm who was born with a higher power. Gohan at 5 was around 1000, Vegeta around that time effortlessly demolishes Saibamen. Of course Gohan isn't normal, but being born with a higher power level than what Vegeta had when he was born from the strongest Saiyan makes me say otherwise.

Because it wasn't permanent.

Super God water is permanent and Goku didn't complain at all about it. Secondly the power the Elder Kaioshin would release would be Goku's power and not power that comes out of nowhere. You say transformations bring out hidden power, so what's wrong with Goku having access to that power in a better way? All the power the Elder Kaioshin brings out is Goku's power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Where did that quote come from.

The final scene of the movie, when Goku was teasing Vegeta.

Secondly you can't become over 5x stronger by pushing yourself, that's bullshit.

Same way Kamehameha is over x2 stronger, Makankosappo is over 3 times stronger, Kaio-ken from x2 to x20, etc. It's like a technique, but instead of a ki blast, the amplification happens in his body. Call it bullshit, but it happened, so apparently, you can do that.

Vegeta is a Super Elite so it's pretty logical for him to be born with a a higher than normal battle power.

Opinion.

Gohan at 5 was around 1000, Vegeta around that time effortlessly demolishes Saibamen.

Vegeta was trained, while Gohan wasn't.

Super God water is permanent and Goku didn't complain at all about it.

I was talking about Super Saiyan God, and like I said in my previous post, Goku was different at that point, but the current Goku wouldn't be happy about it.

Secondly the power the Elder Kaioshin would release would be Goku's power and not power that comes out of nowhere. You say transformations bring out hidden power, so what's wrong with Goku having access to that power in a better way? All the power the Elder Kaioshin brings out is Goku's power.

Rou Kaioshin's power grants power far, far, faa~aar beyond its limits, so it would make Ultimate Goku stronger than SS3 Goku. Which means extra, cheap power-up, which Goku doesn't like.

[dbzfan7]

Same way Kamehameha is over x2 stronger, Makankosappo is over 3 times stronger, Kaio-ken from x2 to x20, etc. It's like a technique, but instead of a ki blast, the amplification happens in his body. Call it bullshit, but it happened, so apparently, you can do that.

It is bullshit as he just magically increases his power for no fucking reason. Kaioken is a technique. This was just random bullshit that even Watanabe called silly. Just like Goku being perfectly fine with Omega Shenron attacking him and he somehow takes no damage. You can't push yourself beyond the power of another transformation. It's random and makes no sense. If that were true then he should have incinerated SPC no problem.

Vegeta was trained, while Gohan wasn't.

There is also no way to prove Gohan was born with a higher power when Vegeta is born from the highest order.

I was talking about Super Saiyan God, and like I said in my previous post, Goku was different at that point, but the current Goku wouldn't be happy about it.

The Elder Kaioshin ritual is just bringing out his own power. SSJ God is different from that. There is no reason to turn it down when it's basically the same as fucking transforming as you put it.

Rou Kaioshin's power grants power far, far, faa~aar beyond its limits, so it would make Ultimate Goku stronger than SS3 Goku. Which means extra, cheap power-up, which Goku doesn't like.

It's his own power being brought out. So it's not unreasonable. Goku had no problem with it before. It's not a cheap power up. It's your own power being released. Elder Kaioshin even says Gohan had the power in him the whole time. How is SSJ any different then. He's using a temporary form that brings out power he can't reach on his own.


I'm also tired of arguing this. I still think the fusion idea is bad, I think Trunks>SSJ3 Gotenks is in the same category as Base Goku>SSJ3. And nothing will change that.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It is bullshit as he just magically increases his power for no fucking reason. Kaioken is a technique.

That's a technique as well.

It's random and makes no sense. If that were true then he should have incinerated SPC no problem.

He just didn't manage to do that back against Cell.

There is also no way to prove Gohan was born with a higher power when Vegeta is born from the highest order.

Yes, there is:

Chapter: 204 (DBZ 10), P12.1-2
Vegeta: “At any rate, the battle power of Kakarot’s son is unusually high, even by the standards of Saiyan children.”
Nappa: “Maybe his reading was wrong.”
Vegeta: “No, it wasn’t wrong. Raditz really took a large amount of damage from that brat’s attack. It seems that mixing Saiyan and Earthling blood begets a powerful hybrid.”

If Vegeta was born with higher power, he wouldn't say that Gohan was that strong because he is a hybrid.

It's his own power being brought out. So it's not unreasonable. Goku had no problem with it before. It's not a cheap power up. It's your own power being released. Elder Kaioshin even says Gohan had the power in him the whole time. How is SSJ any different then. He's using a temporary form that brings out power he can't reach on his own.

Rou Kaioshin himself said that he brings out more power than there is in him. Far, far, faa~aar beyond its limits. At this point of the story, Goku doesn't like exterior power-ups, like Fusion or Super Saiyan God. Ultimate is an unnatural state, unlike the Super Saiyan forms.

[dbzfan7]

That's a technique as well.

It's not a technique. He just got angry and magically got stronger. This is GT level bullshit. It seems to be dismissed as it's not part of GT so who cares.

He just didn't manage to do that back against Cell.

Probably because Toriyama thought "Man it would be stupid for Vegeta to harm a SSJ2 level being" Years later it's somehow okay because an openly admitted Vegeta fanboy put it in.

Yes, there is:

Chapter: 204 (DBZ 10), P12.1-2
Vegeta: “At any rate, the battle power of Kakarot’s son is unusually high, even by the standards of Saiyan children.”
Nappa: “Maybe his reading was wrong.”
Vegeta: “No, it wasn’t wrong. Raditz really took a large amount of damage from that brat’s attack. It seems that mixing Saiyan and Earthling blood begets a powerful hybrid.”

If Vegeta was born with higher power, he wouldn't say that Gohan was that strong because he is a hybrid.

No there isn't. Vegeta is not the standard Saiyan he's a higher breed. So it doesn't apply to him. Gohan is born from a low class so it's unusual for a low class to be born with Gohan's level of power. Vegeta is above the standard as he was born from THE STRONGEST SAIYAN AT THE TIME.

Rou Kaioshin himself said that he brings out more power than there is in him. Far, far, faa~aar beyond its limits. At this point of the story, Goku doesn't like exterior power-ups, like Fusion or Super Saiyan God. Ultimate is an unnatural state, unlike the Super Saiyan forms.

Super Saiyan forms are not a natural state at all. They drain your energy and can strain your body. They also greatly alter the user's emotions. That's not natural. Goku had no problem with the SGW and he never complained about fusion when they needed to use it. The Elder Kaioshin said after he was done the ritual that Gohan had the power in him all along. Goku would be getting his power brought out without the need for straining himself. The Elder Kaioshin even says transformations aren't the right way of doing things so they aren't natural. The extra power Gohan got was still his own power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's not a technique. He just got angry and magically got stronger. This is GT level bullshit. It seems to be dismissed as it's not part of GT so who cares.

He consumes ki to amplify his power, how is that not a technique?

No there isn't. Vegeta is not the standard Saiyan he's a higher breed. So it doesn't apply to him. Gohan is born from a low class so it's unusual for a low class to be born with Gohan's level of power. Vegeta is above the standard as he was born from THE STRONGEST SAIYAN AT THE TIME.

Super Saiyan forms are not a natural state at all. They drain your energy and can strain your body. They also greatly alter the user's emotions. That's not natural.

The Saiyans can naturally transform from Oozaru to Super Saiyan 3. They are natural, biological transformations.

Goku had no problem with the SGW

Are you ignoring what I say?

he never complained about fusion when they needed to use it.

Goku doesn't want to use Fusion against non-merged opponents (like Pure Boo), because he finds it unfair.

The Elder Kaioshin said after he was done the ritual that Gohan had the power in him all along. Goku would be getting his power brought out without the need for straining himself. The Elder Kaioshin even says transformations aren't the right way of doing things so they aren't natural. The extra power Gohan got was still his own power.

The extra power that Gohan got wasn't his own, it was from Kaioshin's ability. It's like I'm saying to you "I'll fill your bottle with 5 waters worth of water, plus more".

[dbzfan7]

He consumes ki to amplify his power, how is that not a technique?

No. He just rages against Birus and that's it. That's not a technique. He shouldn't be able to amplify his power more than an SSJ3 transformation. If it were that simple then it would have been used in the series. Yet it never is. Unless the technique is called lol bullshit no jutsu, it's just a typical shonen bullshit.

Are you ignoring what I say?

Are you going to stick with selective bullshit and ignore other stuff because you don't like it.

Goku doesn't want to use Fusion against non-merged opponents (like Pure Boo), because he finds it unfair.

Goku also says he wouldn't need it. He would fuse if they needed to.

The extra power that Gohan got wasn't his own, it was from Kaioshin's ability. It's like I'm saying to you "I'll fill your bottle with 5 waters worth of water, plus more".

Yes it was. The Elder Kaioshin pulled out all the potential Gohan had and what he can achieve at the time. He pulled out everything Gohan's body could possibly handle. The same would be for Goku. And seeing how beyond limits Vegeta wasn't that much stronger, neither would Goku.