Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DanielSSJ]

See, I'm one of the people who thinks that swinging around the Z Sword for a day or two didn't do much for Gohan except improve his arm strength.

There was that but now we see that Trunks did similar training and about two years later and as a Super Saiyan 2 he's as strong as Goku as a Super Saiyan 3 even though Goku

- Has had more years to train. Even more with the three years in the ROSAT.

- He trained on King Kai's planet. Vegeta had the Gravity Machine.

- Goku and Vegeta have each other as training partners.

- They both trained with Whis on Beerus' planet.

All things that Trunks did not have so you'd have to think that training with the Z Sword was probably a really effective way of boosting ones strength. Trunks did say if it wasn't for that training he'd never have been able to improve as much as he had. Super Saiyan Trunks should be stronger than Buu saga Super Saiyan Goku but he's still weaker than Dabura.

All that just goes to show you how powerful Saiyan/Earthling hybrids can be if they put their mind to it. Also, Trunks' Super Saiyan 2 form seems to be a special case in that he can bring out more power from it than a normal Super Saiyan 2. Maybe it's like the "mutation" that Vegeta underwent in his fight with Beerus on a smaller scale.

[DBZ Macky]

Enough of Super, I want to discuss about the OG Dragon Ball. Specifically, the power scaling of the first few arcs.

Kid Chichi was able to outrun a dinosaur whose real life counterpart would be faster than Goku and Kuririn's sprinting speed. I think it's fair to assume Chichi is stronger than Goku. There's nothing contradicting that, is there?

[DanielSSJ]

Enough of Super, I want to discuss about the OG Dragon Ball. Specifically, the power scaling of the first few arcs.

Kid Chichi was able to outrun a dinosaur whose real life counterpart would be faster than Goku and Kuririn's sprinting speed. I think it's fair to assume Chichi is stronger than Goku. There's nothing contradicting that, is there?

I dunno. I would chalk that up to an adrenaline rush due to the fear of being chased by a hungry dinosaur. After all fear can be an excellent motivator to surpass your limits, as we see when Kuririn gets chased by Lunch's violent form. Besides, Yamcha knocks out Chichi pretty easily in their confrontation, whereas Goku with a full stomach was a bit too much for him.
Then again, not everything was about power levels back then, so all of the youngsters during that time period could've had similar power levels, it was their physical attributes that set them apart.

[LightBing]

Enough of Super, I want to discuss about the OG Dragon Ball. Specifically, the power scaling of the first few arcs.

Kid Chichi was able to outrun a dinosaur whose real life counterpart would be faster than Goku and Kuririn's sprinting speed. I think it's fair to assume Chichi is stronger than Goku. There's nothing contradicting that, is there?

I dunno. I would chalk that up to an adrenaline rush due to the fear of being chased by a hungry dinosaur. After all fear can be an excellent motivator to surpass your limits, as we see when Kuririn gets chased by Lunch's violent form. Besides, Yamcha knocks out Chichi pretty easily in their confrontation, whereas Goku with a full stomach was a bit too much for him.
Then again, not everything was about power levels back then, so all of the youngsters during that time period could've had similar power levels, it was their physical attributes that set them apart.

I agree with the bold part. Which is why when I see people using surviving a bullet as measurement stick, it irks me. Just because Goku did it, doesn't mean everyone would do it. He was supposed to be a tank and "inhuman"(not talking about his Saiyan body since that was a story point then).

Because of Super's manga last chapter I have to talk about zenkais:
[spoiler]Based on new information it seems training is the factor for diminishing zenkais.[/spoiler] This goes somewhat against my previous theory that it was an evolutionary response to reach SSJ faster. Does this mean Goten and Trunks are in for some sweet power ups? What does everyone think?

[DanielSSJ]

I agree with the bold part. Which is why when I see people using surviving a bullet as measurement stick, it irks me. Just because Goku did it, doesn't mean everyone would do it. He was supposed to be a tank and "inhuman"(not talking about his Saiyan body since that was a story point then).

Even the guide book that lists Goku's battle power of 10 also describes his durability as a separate thing.

He already has twice the power of an ordinary person. What’s more, his body is tough enough to repel a gun bullet.

Because of Super's manga last chapter I have to talk about zenkais:
[spoiler]Based on new information it seems training is the factor for diminishing zenkais.[/spoiler] This goes somewhat against my previous theory that it was an evolutionary response to reach SSJ faster. Does this mean Goten and Trunks are in for some sweet power ups? What does everyone think?

I always figured that healing boosts, like nearly every power-up method in Dragon Ball, would have diminishing returns. After all the shit that happened during the Freeza arc, Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta are all pretty tapped out in that regard. And it also makes sense why Cell got one, since he had Freeza's DNA and was probably nowhere near his full potential.
So maybe Goten and Trunks will be getting some sweet increases. Though given their apparent lack of presence in the Universe Survival Arc, I'm not gonna hold my breath.

[DBZ Macky]

I somewhat agree with you, DanielSSJ, it could definitely be an adrenaline rush. But I don't think fear increases your performance dramatically since apparently, loss of courage makes your battle power go down, since Yuuki is a component of Ki.

Which is why when I see people using surviving a bullet as measurement stick, it irks me. Just because Goku did it, doesn't mean everyone would do it. He was supposed to be a tank and "inhuman"(not talking about his Saiyan body since that was a story point then).

Shouldn't irk you if you just tell them that the "surviving bullets" stuff was only because of his different anatomy. He does say his head is pretty hard. Even as a harmless (not really) baby, he was able to survive a blow to the head which would definitely have killed a Human.

The Daizenshuu 7 even comments on Goku's ability to survive bullets seperately from his battle power.

He already has twice the power of an ordinary person. What’s more, his body is tough enough to repel a gun bullet.

And also my first post was (kind of) a mistake. Goku's and Kuririn's sprinting speed is actually more than your average T-Rex.
Might as well leave some numbers as fun facts I guess?

Goku's speed (calculated from 100m dash)= 11.76 m/s
Kuririn's speed (same as above)= 9.61 m/s
T-Rex= 8 m/s

Now obviously it was a gag scene, but I'm compelled to put Evil Lunch as stronger than Chi-Chi, since she was able to run about as fast as Kuririn.

Another thing I noticed was that Anime filler depicts Mr. Satan vanishing before he gets shot. Wouldn't this mean he's faster than Goku and Kuririn?

[DanielSSJ]

<snip>

This is why you shouldn't use feats like these as strength comparisons in Dragon Ball. They're never consistent.

[dragonball0900]

Alright guys. Here are my power levels of the Namek arc, as well as the reasons of why they are the way they are:

Weighted Krillin - 1500
Though he could be suppressed, but it was said by Zarbon about Gohan and Krillin's power levels, they were both around 1500.

Krillin - 1850
He was with weighted clothing when there was a 1500 reading. Goku jumped from 334 to 416 after removing his weighted clothing on the Raditz arc. That's a X1.25. Therefore the same would happen to Krillin too. It's also higher than his Saiyan saga power level of 1770.

Gohan - 1500
Remember that Gohan was weaker than Krillin in the Saiyan saga without any enraged boost, although the difference between him and Krillin is much smaller, and their powers were about 1500.

Enraged Gohan - More than 3000
I don't think his anger surpassed the 4000 tier, but the 3000 tie it's possible.

Banan and Sui - Around 1000
They were defeated by Gohan and Krillin. They could even be less than 1000, but I wouldn't put them that weak considering that I found them surpassing the 1000 number.

Cui - 18000
He is equal to how Vegeta was on earth, which is 18000, like Dodoria said.

Vegeta - 24000
As stated by Dodoria in the manga. He was surprised at how Vegeta got to 24000 when he was before 18000.

Goku (after recovering from senzu bean) - 13000
Just a random number for Goku after being on hospital and recovering from the senzu bean. Could be lower, who knows?

The Elder Namekians - 600
Just a random number. Agree with it or not, it's not stated anywhere.

Moori - 900
As the last one, a random number. Strangely, it was said his power is 5000, but I obviously won't agree with it since he HAS to be weaker than the soldiers and namekians.

The Namekian Warriors - 1000 (suppressed) - 3000 (full power)
As said in the manga, it was 1000 when they were suppressed, but after powering up they are 3000 and were able to defeat Frieza's soldiers.

Frieza's soldiers - Above 1000.
Appule - 2000
Personally, they should be between 1000-2000. I found Appule to be the strongest of the soldiers, since he was able to survive the battle.

Dodoria - 22000
As mentioned in the Daizenshuu 7, as well as the fact of how they were more surprised on the 24000 than the 22000 reading of Vegeta against Cui.

Zarbon - 23000
As mentioned in the Daizenshuu 7, as well as the fact of how they were more surprised on the 24000 than the 22000 reading of Vegeta against Cui.

Monster Zarbon - 30000
Some people put him 27000 or 28000, but I don't think that's the case since he was fighting evenly with Vegeta and the only reason he lost is because he was conceited, and Vegeta also needed to make a trick of landing dirt to Zarbon's eyes to be able to attack him from behind.

Vegeta (post Zarbon) - 32000
I think the zenkai Vegeta received from Zarbon is the same amount of zenkai he received from earth, so it would give him a 32000 level of power. Also Jeice said he got over 30000, although Vegeta could still power up a bit more, all we know is that he was no match for Recoome (who I get to that later), and that he got over the 30000 mark. Although the Daizenshuu 7 mentioned 30000, I could be wrong then, but for now I'll stick with this since they're not that far apart to be honest.

Krillin (post Guru) - 13000
As mentioned in the Daizenshuu 7, as well as the manga about being "over 10000", it makes sense for Krillin to be this number, specially since the Guru boost make him 7 times stronger his old strenght, it's a strange coincidence, isn't it?

Gohan (post Guru) - 14000
As mentioned in the Daizenshuu 7, as well as the manga about being "over 10000", it makes sense for Gohan to be this number. The Guru boost also made his base state (I mean not enraged) being stronger than Krillin, because obviously since he's a half saiyan, he has to increase his potential more.

Guldo - 8000
Many people put him below that, around a 6000 number, I don't think it's wrong, but I personally put him 8000 since Gohan and Krillin needed to power up to fight him. If Guldo was less than half of their strenght, they wouldn't power up as much as they could.

Recoome - 40000
It was stated that none of the Ginyu Force, except for Captain Ginyu, could stand a chance against a 60000 number of power. So all 3 should be around the 40-50 mark. I'd personally put Recoome the weakest of the 3 though.

Burter - 42500
It was stated that none of the Ginyu Force, except for Captain Ginyu, could stand a chance against a 60000 number of power. So all 3 should be around the 40-50 mark. I have Burter the next one in power.

Jeice - 45000
It was stated that none of the Ginyu Force, except for Captain Ginyu, could stand a chance against a 60000 number of power. So all 3 should be around the 40-50 mark. I would say Jeice is the stronger of the 3, based on how he's supposedly the second in command, as well as his big ki blasts. But on a battle against Burter, he would loose due to Burter's superior speed.

Captain Ginyu - 120000
As stated in the manga, his level at maximum is 120000.

Goku - 90000
Kaioken X2 - 180000
Kaioken X10 - 900000
As stated in the Daizenshuu 7, as well as how Ginyu estimated Goku's maximum power. Goku is clearly 90000 also because of the Kaioken X2 being up to 180000. A Kaioken X10 would surpass Frieza's First Form, and Goku told to Ginyu that the 180000 number wasn't all of his strenght at all.

Ginyu (in Goku's Body) - 23000
As said in the manga, Ginyu is clearly 23000 here.

Goku (in Ginyu's Body) - 17000
I have Goku not accostumed to Ginyu's body in the same way Ginyu was, as well as the same porcentage.

Krillin (post Recoome) - 23400
Now, the reason I put this number is because 13000 X1.8 is 23400, then 23400 X1.8 and again X.18 is 75000 (which I get to that later). Anyway, it makes sense since Krillin is able to fight equally with Ginyu in the manga.

Gohan (post Recoome) - 30000
In the case of Gohan, however, since he's a half saiyan, he would get not only the potential, but also the zenkai. He probably more than doubled his 14000 from before. 30000 seems a fine number, since he can't be above Jeice. The reason they didn't defat Ginyu in Goku's body is because they didn't want to hurt Goku's body, Vegeta even said that.

Vegeta (post Recoome) - 160000
Just like Krillin, here's another sequence of multilpiers which I'll get later when I do the Frieza saga power levels. But I have Vegeta this number because I also have him a boost after having his nap, making him closer to Frieza. All I will say is that he managed to multiply his old power level by 5. It doesn't contradict that he's able to defeat Jeice easily, as well as Captain Ginyu in the anime.

Nail - 42000
As stated in the manga on Frieza's scouter. Nail is easily Ginyu Force tier.

First Form Frieza - 530000
Obviously, as stated in the manga.


Do you agree with my list? Give all your thoughts here. Frieza arc is next.

[DanielSSJ]

<snip>

Your numbers are a little hard to read. I would try breaking them out with commas. Instead of writing 120000, write 120,000.

[ZombieVito]

[spoiler]Alright guys. Here are my power levels of the Namek arc, as well as the reasons of why they are the way they are:

Weighted Krillin - 1500
Though he could be suppressed, but it was said by Zarbon about Gohan and Krillin's power levels, they were both around 1500.

Krillin - 1850
He was with weighted clothing when there was a 1500 reading. Goku jumped from 334 to 416 after removing his weighted clothing on the Raditz arc. That's a X1.25. Therefore the same would happen to Krillin too. It's also higher than his Saiyan saga power level of 1770.

Gohan - 1500
Remember that Gohan was weaker than Krillin in the Saiyan saga without any enraged boost, although the difference between him and Krillin is much smaller, and their powers were about 1500.

Enraged Gohan - More than 3000
I don't think his anger surpassed the 4000 tier, but the 3000 tie it's possible.

Banan and Sui - Around 1000
They were defeated by Gohan and Krillin. They could even be less than 1000, but I wouldn't put them that weak considering that I found them surpassing the 1000 number.

Cui - 18000
He is equal to how Vegeta was on earth, which is 18000, like Dodoria said.

Vegeta - 24000
As stated by Dodoria in the manga. He was surprised at how Vegeta got to 24000 when he was before 18000.

Goku (after recovering from senzu bean) - 13000
Just a random number for Goku after being on hospital and recovering from the senzu bean. Could be lower, who knows?

The Elder Namekians - 600
Just a random number. Agree with it or not, it's not stated anywhere.

Moori - 900
As the last one, a random number. Strangely, it was said his power is 5000, but I obviously won't agree with it since he HAS to be weaker than the soldiers and namekians.

The Namekian Warriors - 1000 (suppressed) - 3000 (full power)
As said in the manga, it was 1000 when they were suppressed, but after powering up they are 3000 and were able to defeat Frieza's soldiers.

Frieza's soldiers - Above 1000.
Appule - 2000
Personally, they should be between 1000-2000. I found Appule to be the strongest of the soldiers, since he was able to survive the battle.

Dodoria - 22000
As mentioned in the Daizenshuu 7, as well as the fact of how they were more surprised on the 24000 than the 22000 reading of Vegeta against Cui.

Zarbon - 23000
As mentioned in the Daizenshuu 7, as well as the fact of how they were more surprised on the 24000 than the 22000 reading of Vegeta against Cui.

Monster Zarbon - 30000
Some people put him 27000 or 28000, but I don't think that's the case since he was fighting evenly with Vegeta and the only reason he lost is because he was conceited, and Vegeta also needed to make a trick of landing dirt to Zarbon's eyes to be able to attack him from behind.

Vegeta (post Zarbon) - 32000
I think the zenkai Vegeta received from Zarbon is the same amount of zenkai he received from earth, so it would give him a 32000 level of power. Also Jeice said he got over 30000, although Vegeta could still power up a bit more, all we know is that he was no match for Recoome (who I get to that later), and that he got over the 30000 mark. Although the Daizenshuu 7 mentioned 30000, I could be wrong then, but for now I'll stick with this since they're not that far apart to be honest.

Krillin (post Guru) - 13000
As mentioned in the Daizenshuu 7, as well as the manga about being "over 10000", it makes sense for Krillin to be this number, specially since the Guru boost make him 7 times stronger his old strenght, it's a strange coincidence, isn't it?

Gohan (post Guru) - 14000
As mentioned in the Daizenshuu 7, as well as the manga about being "over 10000", it makes sense for Gohan to be this number. The Guru boost also made his base state (I mean not enraged) being stronger than Krillin, because obviously since he's a half saiyan, he has to increase his potential more.

Guldo - 8000
Many people put him below that, around a 6000 number, I don't think it's wrong, but I personally put him 8000 since Gohan and Krillin needed to power up to fight him. If Guldo was less than half of their strenght, they wouldn't power up as much as they could.

Recoome - 40000
It was stated that none of the Ginyu Force, except for Captain Ginyu, could stand a chance against a 60000 number of power. So all 3 should be around the 40-50 mark. I'd personally put Recoome the weakest of the 3 though.

Burter - 42500
It was stated that none of the Ginyu Force, except for Captain Ginyu, could stand a chance against a 60000 number of power. So all 3 should be around the 40-50 mark. I have Burter the next one in power.

Jeice - 45000
It was stated that none of the Ginyu Force, except for Captain Ginyu, could stand a chance against a 60000 number of power. So all 3 should be around the 40-50 mark. I would say Jeice is the stronger of the 3, based on how he's supposedly the second in command, as well as his big ki blasts. But on a battle against Burter, he would loose due to Burter's superior speed.

Captain Ginyu - 120000
As stated in the manga, his level at maximum is 120000.

Goku - 90000
Kaioken X2 - 180000
Kaioken X10 - 900000
As stated in the Daizenshuu 7, as well as how Ginyu estimated Goku's maximum power. Goku is clearly 90000 also because of the Kaioken X2 being up to 180000. A Kaioken X10 would surpass Frieza's First Form, and Goku told to Ginyu that the 180000 number wasn't all of his strenght at all.

Ginyu (in Goku's Body) - 23000
As said in the manga, Ginyu is clearly 23000 here.

Goku (in Ginyu's Body) - 17000
I have Goku not accostumed to Ginyu's body in the same way Ginyu was, as well as the same porcentage.

Krillin (post Recoome) - 23400
Now, the reason I put this number is because 13000 X1.8 is 23400, then 23400 X1.8 and again X.18 is 75000 (which I get to that later). Anyway, it makes sense since Krillin is able to fight equally with Ginyu in the manga.

Gohan (post Recoome) - 30000
In the case of Gohan, however, since he's a half saiyan, he would get not only the potential, but also the zenkai. He probably more than doubled his 14000 from before. 30000 seems a fine number, since he can't be above Jeice. The reason they didn't defat Ginyu in Goku's body is because they didn't want to hurt Goku's body, Vegeta even said that.

Vegeta (post Recoome) - 160000
Just like Krillin, here's another sequence of multilpiers which I'll get later when I do the Frieza saga power levels. But I have Vegeta this number because I also have him a boost after having his nap, making him closer to Frieza. All I will say is that he managed to multiply his old power level by 5. It doesn't contradict that he's able to defeat Jeice easily, as well as Captain Ginyu in the anime.

Nail - 42000
As stated in the manga on Frieza's scouter. Nail is easily Ginyu Force tier.

First Form Frieza - 530000
Obviously, as stated in the manga.


Do you agree with my list? Give all your thoughts here. Frieza arc is next.[/spoiler]

Everything seems fine except I would make the 3 Ginyu's closer in power and also Jeice said Vegeta was near 30,000. Not over it.

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta needs to be close to Freeza for their power struugle to make sense. 450k is the BARE minimum I'd put him after Recoome.

[DBZ Macky]

Vegeta needs to be close to Freeza for their power struugle to make sense. 450k is the BARE minimum I'd put him after Recoome.

Nappa at 4k puts up a good fight against Goku at 8k.
No wonder Vegeta at 250k could do the same with a little bit of help from his new alien bald midget friend and the son of his new best buddy.

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta needs to be close to Freeza for their power struugle to make sense. 450k is the BARE minimum I'd put him after Recoome.

Nappa at 4k puts up a good fight against Goku at 8k.
No wonder Vegeta at 250k could do the same with a little bit of help from his new alien bald midget friend and the son of his new best buddy.

I don't buy Nappa at 4k either. They should both be getting smashed.

[Gog]

Vegeta needs to be close to Freeza for their power struugle to make sense. 450k is the BARE minimum I'd put him after Recoome.

Nappa at 4k puts up a good fight against Goku at 8k.
No wonder Vegeta at 250k could do the same with a little bit of help from his new alien bald midget friend and the son of his new best buddy.

Nappa put up a good fight? Are we remembering the same manga? He got crushed pathetically by Goku from what I remembered. Vegeta would have gotten crushed with a single pinkie by Freeza

[DBZ Macky]

Nappa put up a good fight? Are we remembering the same manga? He got crushed pathetically by Goku from what I remembered. Vegeta would have gotten crushed with a single pinkie by Freeza

Goku says Nappa is "pretty tough" and that it might "take forever" for Goku to win. Also, Goku says Nappa's attack would've been trouble if he didn't counter it with his own Kamehameha.

Yeah, pretty sure we're remembering different portions of the fight. Nappa does fair poorly, but only when he loses his cool.

[Gog]

Nappa put up a good fight? Are we remembering the same manga? He got crushed pathetically by Goku from what I remembered. Vegeta would have gotten crushed with a single pinkie by Freeza

Goku says Nappa is "pretty tough" and that it might "take forever" for Goku to win. Also, Goku says Nappa's attack would've been trouble if he didn't counter it with his own Kamehameha.

Yeah, pretty sure we're remembering different portions of the fight. Nappa does fair poorly, but only when he loses his cool.

Are we sure that Nappa's powerlevel is 4K? He would not be able to do that with such a low powerlevel compared to Goku

[dragonball0900]

Vegeta needs to be close to Freeza for their power struugle to make sense. 450k is the BARE minimum I'd put him after Recoome.

If you read on my list, I will be making Vegeta increasing his power after his nap he made on the ship.

<snip>

Your numbers are a little hard to read. I would try breaking them out with commas. Instead of writing 120000, write 120,000.

I wish I could edit my post to do that. I don't know why I can't. On my next list I will take it into account.

As for Nappa, I don't think he's 4000 against Goku, against the other Z fighters yes, but against Goku is too low. Nappa should be at least 6000 to 7500 to give Goku a better fight.

[DanielSSJ]

As for Nappa, I don't think he's 4000 against Goku, against the other Z fighters yes, but against Goku is too low. Nappa should be at least 6000 to 7500 to give Goku a better fight.

A battle power of 7,500 seems excessive for someone who didn't even land a single blow against an opponent with an 8,000 battle power.

[DanielSSJ]

Rather than disregarding Vegeta's official battle power, I'd rather take a different approach. What about questioning Freeza's battle power instead?
I know how everyone feels about battle powers from the Manga and how they are "more official" than all the other official battle powers, but please, bear with me.

What if Freeza didn't have a battle power of 530,000 when he was fighting Vegeta. Maybe he only attains that battle power after he shatters his battle suit. Or, maybe the 530k figure is his absolute max, as in, he only gets that strong when he fires off his ultimate "Supernova" attack?

Just my 2 cents, but I think it's completely viable since Freeza can alter his battle power.
My numbers:

Freeza
Vs. Nail- 85,000
Vs. Vegeta- 265,000
Full Power- 530,000

I actually really like this idea, and I might use it in my next battle power list.

[dragonball0900]

As for Nappa, I don't think he's 4000 against Goku, against the other Z fighters yes, but against Goku is too low. Nappa should be at least 6000 to 7500 to give Goku a better fight.

A battle power of 7,500 seems excessive for someone who didn't even land a single blow against an opponent with an 8,000 battle power.

Actually, Nappa was fighting equally with Goku when calming down. Without calming down, he was nothing. After, his power increased, even Goku admitted that Nappa improved as well as how Goku said the battle would take forever.