Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Alruneia]

Has the fandom come up with a name for Trunks' new form yet? Whatever it is, it's superior to his SSJ2, right?

I call it Mondo Trunks.
It surpasses Hella Trunks, which is his FPSSJ2 form that was on par with SSJ3 Goku in the manga.
Which, again, surpasses normal SSJ2 Trunks, which in turn surpasses Ultra Trunks and Super Trunks from the Cell arc.
I came up with the new terms purely to avoid calling the new forms "Super Trunks" again. They're placeholder terms. The instant we get an explanation and/or an official name, I'm dropping those terms. Until then, we're free to call them basically anything we want as long as people understand what we're referring to.

[Bullza]

Both of them struggled with the ball. Goku didn't attempt to punch the ball until he was already in base, mustering up what little strength he had left. Super Saiyan was never specifically said to be stronger than Super Saiyan God.

They both struggled with the ball but Base Goku had the power to destroy it. They didn't specifically say that Super Saiyan was stronger than Super Saiyan God but they made it very clear that he was more powerful fighting Beerus as a Super Saiyan than he had as a Super Saiyan God because he was still unleashing more of his God power.

So if a full power Super Saiyan is on the same level as Super Saiyan God and a depleted Super Saiyan is on the same level as a depleted Base then a full power power Base would be on the same level as Super Saiyan God.

They were referring to his POWER level, as Krillin's statement about Goku never being satisfied with his strength makes clear.

Right. Super Saiyan Blue is a level above what he was at back then as it's the Super Saiyan form of one with the power of a Super Saiyan God. Base Goku just has the power of a Super Saiyan God, he's not on another level.

Future Zamasu IS that much stronger than present Zamasu. Goku said he had the potential to be as powerful as Beerus, and Zamasu had literally years upon years to grow stronger between timeframes. The fact that future Zamasu is capable of fighting on par with a boosted Super Saiyan Blue Goku while present Zamasu couldn't even defeat Super Saiyan 2 Goku confirms that the gap in their strength is significant. Even Beerus said that present Zamasu was child's play compared to Goku.

We can't say that. This is Zamasu a mere 17 years down the line from the present timeline Zamasu. These Supreme Kai's are millions, dozens of millions of years old, 17 years is nothing. Present Zamasu also wasn't as weak as he appeared to be because he said he could have done better and was just distracted. SSJ2 Trunks would have killed Future Zamasu when he ran him through with his sword if wasn't for his immortality.

The episode with Beerus being in Monaka's costume proves absolutely nothing. We already know that he was hindered by the costume regardless of how serious he was during the fight, we know that Goku never transformed, and we know that the earthlings could see them in battle.

He was only hindered by the suit at first when he was trying to keep up the act. After he'd snapped he no longer cared until Whis stepped in, the suit would have hindered him somewhat but it wasn't going to affect him still punching Goku square in the face and him being able to keep going.

Whether it was before the staff (and indeed, whether they'd already obtained Super Saiyan Blue at all) is irrelevant because of what Episode 20 established.

No it's not irrelevant. Beerus fought Goku previously in his Super Saiyan God/Super Saiyan and Base forms. After having trained with Whis for several months Beerus said that he had grown stronger, this was not taking Super Saiyan Blue into account so Base Goku was stronger than when he fought Beerus before. Making sense with why the Earthlings couldn't see him fight Frieza though they could see SSJG Goku fight Beerus or outside of the anime why the form is referred to as Saiyan Beyond God.

[Marlowe89]

They both struggled with the ball but Base Goku had the power to destroy it. They didn't specifically say that Super Saiyan was stronger than Super Saiyan God but they made it very clear that he was more powerful fighting Beerus as a Super Saiyan than he had as a Super Saiyan God because he was still unleashing more of his God power.

I'll repeat myself one more time. Super Saiyan Goku was so depleted against the ball that he couldn't even maintain his Super Saiyan form so obviously he can't be compared with base (even a depleted base) from the outset, and even if he could be compared, he never attempted to punch the ball until he was already in base anyway so we can't even really compare their performance when they're mustering up the rest of their strength.

Also, Super Saiyan Goku unleashing more of his God power doesn't say anything about him surpassing the full extent of Super Saiyan God's strength.

So if a full power Super Saiyan is on the same level as Super Saiyan God and a depleted Super Saiyan is on the same level as a depleted Base then a full power power Base would be on the same level as Super Saiyan God.

Which was already refuted by the anime itself when Super Saiyan was said to be dozens of times stronger than base post-absorption. So not only is there nothing to imply that base Goku is as strong as Super Saiyan God at full strength, there is actually a solid statement that supports the fact that he's only a fraction of it.

Right. Super Saiyan Blue is a level above what he was at back then as it's the Super Saiyan form of one with the power of a Super Saiyan God. Base Goku just has the power of a Super Saiyan God, he's not on another level.

If they were talking about his power level (which they were), they wouldn't have mentioned that Goku was even stronger as a Super Saiyan Blue than he was "back then" if he was already just as strong or stronger in base against Frieza because that's redundant. It wouldn't make any sense for them to refer to his power from that time as some kind of benchmark if it was already obtained and surpassed before transforming.

We can't say that. This is Zamasu a mere 17 years down the line from the present timeline Zamasu. These Supreme Kai's are millions, dozens of millions of years old, 17 years is nothing. Present Zamasu also wasn't as weak as he appeared to be because he said he could have done better and was just distracted. SSJ2 Trunks would have killed Future Zamasu when he ran him through with his sword if wasn't for his immortality.

We can say that for an absolute fact. Future Zamasu said he wanted to show Trunks how powerless he and other mortals were after he was stabbed with the sword, but we know from recent events that he's capable of rivaling a boosted Super Saiyan Blue Goku when at full strength. Meanwhile, Beerus himself flat-out said that present Zamasu was far beneath Goku which is consistent with their sparring match when Super Saiyan 2 Goku was matching his power.

Can you stop? You're arguing with a direct statement in the anime. Almost every time you're presented with evidence that irrevocably challenges your viewpoint, you start grasping for straws ("but they're millions of years old!") in an attempt to keep that viewpoint valid. Nobody wants to have a discussion with someone who chooses to be willfully ignorant.

Either acknowledge that Beerus debunks what you were saying about Zamasu's strength or admit that you disagree with the anime's dialogue because I don't have the time or patience to keep arguing about this.

No it's not irrelevant. After having trained with Whis for several months Beerus said that he had grown stronger, this was not taking Super Saiyan Blue into account so Base Goku was stronger than when he fought Beerus before.

It's ENTIRELY irrelevant. Beerus didn't make the comment about them being much stronger until we already saw them using God ki in base. He doesn't need to take Super Saiyan Blue into account because we already know about the effects of God ki.

Your example with Beerus being in that Monaka outfit still doesn't tell us exactly how much he was putting into the fight, and they couldn't have been using that much of their strength anyway since Goku declares "let's take this up a notch!" and then powers up in base only a moment before Whis stops them. The earthlings could also keep track of them perfectly fine. You can repeat it as much as you want but if it isn't substantial evidence then it doesn't matter, so I'm not going to continue responding to that anymore.

[Hugo Boss]

Characters keep passing each other left and right, it's becoming harder to remember where things stand but I do think that at the moment it goes

Vegeta > Trunks > Black > Goku > Zamasu

How many times has Black powered up now? There was the one from fighting Goku in the present, one from Vegeta pummeling him as SSJB, one from Goku pummeling him as SSJB....I feel like I'm forgetting one.

If he's upgraded to a scythe in the next episode he's probably powered up again from Vegeta's beatdown.

Black seems to have reached a plateau. If I understood Vegeta correctly, Black can't use Goku's true power, which implies the Goku he took the body from is stronger than the current Goku.

[Zamasu55]

So, still arguing about what level anime base Goku is at?

Beyond God Goku one-shots the Z verse.
Base Goku is probably in between Super Buu and Ultimate Gohan, I think.

[SansrivaaL]

Characters keep passing each other left and right, it's becoming harder to remember where things stand but I do think that at the moment it goes

Vegeta > Trunks > Black > Goku > Zamasu

How many times has Black powered up now? There was the one from fighting Goku in the present, one from Vegeta pummeling him as SSJB, one from Goku pummeling him as SSJB....I feel like I'm forgetting one.

If he's upgraded to a scythe in the next episode he's probably powered up again from Vegeta's beatdown.

Black seems to have reached a plateau. If I understood Vegeta correctly, Black can't use Goku's true power, which implies the Goku he took the body from is stronger than the current Goku.

True, Vegeta made it sound like Zamasu wont be able to use Goku's body the way its supposed to be.

[brett wheeler]

so as far as I can tell right now it goes

ssb vegeta>ssjr black=super trunks>ssb goku>zamasu>ssj2 trunks

black has most certianly reached the maximum capability of his power or is very close if he grows any more at all the most I can see him getting is as strong as vegeta and still then he wont win so thats probably why they fuse they know they cant win

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think I figured out how Black killed Zamasu-Goku, why he keeps getting stronger when other Saiyans don't, and why his Super Saiyan form is pink.

The Saiyans are said to have bottomless dormant powers. They get stronger the more they fight & the more damaged they get, especially if they reach near-death, and they have a number of transformations that make them even stronger. However, the ability to get stronger after reaching near-death is limited, they can't get stronger like this forever. Saiyans like Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan have already reached that limit, and they no longer get any stronger through that ability (this can be seen even in this arc of Super, where Black & Zamasu keep filling their bodies with holes and they never got any stronger).

Zamasu was close to SS2 Goku when he first fought Goku. Future Zamasu is even stronger than that, close to SSB Goku. Goku believed that Zamasu has the potential to reach even greater level, even Beerus' level. So Zamasu, who is a prodigy Shin-jin, has a huge amount of dormant powers in him.

As we saw, shortly after his defeat from SS2 Goku, Zamasu used the Super Dragon Balls to change bodies with Goku & became Goku Black, and then he killed Goku, who had Zamasu's body. However, Black couldn't use Goku's transformations, not even regular Super Saiyan (he obtained SSR after his fight with Goku), and his body was at SS2 level, so how was he able to kill Zamasu-Goku in his base form? The reason for this is because even though they changed bodies, they didn't only keep their minds, but their powers as well. So, Goku Black was as strong as Zamasu (near SS2 level), and Goku in Zamasu's body was as strong as base Goku (but since Black's body is that of a mortal, he doesn't have godly ki anymore). Black then became even stronger through his fights up to this point, surpassing SS3 Goku in his base form, and rivaling SSB Goku in his SS form.

Zamasu's power inside Goku's body seems to be why Black's regular Super Saiyan is altered into Super Saiyan Rose, Zamasu's non-Saiyan ki affected the transformation (but he still doesn't have godly ki in that form either). This is also why Black keeps getting stronger & stronger without any end so far, Goku may had reached his limit when it comes to near-death power-ups, but Zamasu hasn't, he still has a lot of potential left.

Goku's Saiyan nature seems to have affected Zamasu's personality (which can be seen from his obsession to get stronger & stronger, something Future Zamasu lacks), but he doesn't have Goku's memories. We've seen that Zamasu wants to become as much like Goku as possible, so apparently he learned Goku's Kamehameha & Shunkan Ido after he stole his body. We saw that he learned ki sensing after one year fighting Trunks on Earth, and he learned Goku's fighting style & how to become Super Saiyan after his fight with Goku in the past.

So, mystery solved! (At least for me.)

[ekrolo2]

Upon checking out some BoG arc stuff, I'm confused as to what Super Saiyan Blue is. In the show, Super Saiyan already has all of the power of Super Saiyan God in it yet in the F arc, Goku talks about how Blue is the SS form to a Saiyan who's tasted SSGod.

In the context of the arc/movie you can infer that Blue is just a modified version of Super Saiyan which is a bit of a stretch but not completely unreasonable to assume.... until regular SS comes back.... So, if regular SS already has Gods power, wtf is Blue? Super Super Saiyan?

[TheUltimateNinja]

So, still arguing about what level anime base Goku is at?

Beyond God Goku one-shots the Z verse.
Base Goku is probably in between Super Buu and Ultimate Gohan, I think.

I agree that Base Goku w/ God power one-shots the Z verse but by my levels regular Goku is still far below the androids, I have him at around ~200 million right now.

Upon checking out some BoG arc stuff, I'm confused as to what Super Saiyan Blue is. In the show, Super Saiyan already has all of the power of Super Saiyan God in it yet in the F arc, Goku talks about how Blue is the SS form to a Saiyan who's tasted SSGod.

In the context of the arc/movie you can infer that Blue is just a modified version of Super Saiyan which is a bit of a stretch but not completely unreasonable to assume.... until regular SS comes back.... So, if regular SS already has Gods power, wtf is Blue? Super Super Saiyan?

It makes a lot more sense if you believe the two base theory which I myself happen to follow.

With their regular base the SSJ states function normally, but when they use God ki their base gives them access to a portion of SSGod's power and their SSJ allows it to bring out its full power, but this becomes obsolete once they gain SSBlue which is basically the same thing but even more powerful.

My power hierarchy goes like this:

SSBlue > SSGod = SSJ (God) > Base (God) > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base.

[ekrolo2]

It makes a lot more sense if you believe the two base theory which I myself happen to follow.
With their regular base the SSJ states function normally, but when they use God ki their base allows them access a portion of SSGod's power and their SSJ allows it to bring out its full power, but this becomes obsolete once they gain SSBlue which is basically the same thing but even more powerful.

My power hierarchy goes like this:

SSBlue > SSGod = SSJ (God) > Base (God) > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base.

Some of the Trunks stuff makes me really dubious about the two base theory, like how he can block hits from Black that're meant to hurt/kill Goku without getting sliced in half himself such as during Episode 57.

As redundant as it may be, making Blue a Super SS feels a lot simpler. If Goku needs SS to gain full access to his SSGod power, then Blue being Gods Super Saiyan would make it essentially Super Super Saiyan, or a 2500 times Base Multiplier.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It makes a lot more sense if you believe the two base theory which I myself happen to follow.
With their regular base the SSJ states function normally, but when they use God ki their base allows them access a portion of SSGod's power and their SSJ allows it to bring out its full power, but this becomes obsolete once they gain SSBlue which is basically the same thing but even more powerful.

My power hierarchy goes like this:

SSBlue > SSGod = SSJ (God) > Base (God) > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base.

Some of the Trunks stuff makes me really dubious about the two base theory, like how he can block hits from Black that're meant to hurt/kill Goku without getting sliced in half himself such as during Episode 57.

As redundant as it may be, making Blue a Super SS feels a lot simpler. If Goku needs SS to gain full access to his SSGod power, then Blue being Gods Super Saiyan would make it essentially Super Super Saiyan, or a 2500 times Base Multiplier.

2,500x is much too low as SSGod gave Goku more power than even fusion and Super Vegetto is definitely more than 2,500x stronger than Base Goku and that's not even counting SSJ2 and SSJ3.

Also, Trunks' powerscaling is extremely bizarre unless you assume he somehow obtained God ki and was using it in that fight, which is supported by the fact that his new form clearly possesses God ki as evidenced by the bits of blue in his aura. It's the only way to explain a guy who's weaker than SSJ2 Goku suddenly going up to SSBlue level in a single day.

[Bullza]

Also, Super Saiyan Goku unleashing more of his God power doesn't say anything about him surpassing the full extent of Super Saiyan God's strength.

I know that. I said that Super Saiyan Goku showed more power than he did as Super Saiyan God. His Super Saiyan even then was as strong as Super Saiyan God so the idea that even the current Super Saiyan 3 Goku is weaker than Super Saiyan God is completely wrong.

Which was already refuted by the anime itself when Super Saiyan was said to be dozens of times stronger than base post-absorption. So not only is there nothing to imply that base Goku is as strong as Super Saiyan God at full strength, there is actually a solid statement that supports the fact that he's only a fraction of it.

My comment has nothing to do with what happened after the fight. We know that after the fight with Beerus that Goku could still get stronger when turning Super Saiyan. Toriyama himself said that back in an old interview where he said he's absorbed the power of a God. That's nothing new.

If they were talking about his power level (which they were), they wouldn't have mentioned that Goku was even stronger as a Super Saiyan Blue than he was "back then" if he was already just as strong or stronger in base against Frieza because that's redundant. It wouldn't make any sense for them to refer to his power from that time as some kind of benchmark if it was already obtained and surpassed before transforming.

It was mentioned in response to when they were referring back to Super Saiyan God when they brought up how that had red hair. They didn't just say it was stronger, they said he was at a level above what he was and he wasn't in his Base form but he is as a Super Saiyan Blue.

We can say that for an absolute fact. Future Zamasu said he wanted to show Trunks how powerless he and other mortals were after he was stabbed with the sword, but we know from recent events that he's capable of rivaling a boosted Super Saiyan Blue Goku when at full strength. Meanwhile, Beerus himself flat-out said that present Zamasu was far beneath Goku which is consistent with their sparring match when Super Saiyan 2 Goku was matching his power.

Again, Zamasu said he was distracted and could have done better when referring to his fight with SSJ2 Goku so that doesn't really count for anything anymore. Beerus never said that Zamasu was far beneath Goku. He told him not to hold back or he'd die and that he wouldn't have a chance against Goku. The Future Zamasu has mainly been getting by because of his immortality, he never let Trunks stab him on purpose or beat him around moments later on purpose. Even in the last episode Trunks (not in his Super form) was shown able to keep up with him and dodge him and grab him.

They also never said this Zamasu was any stronger than the other Zamasu either. He's simply below the others, Trunks included.

It's ENTIRELY irrelevant. Beerus didn't make the comment about them being much stronger until we already saw them using God ki in base. He doesn't need to take Super Saiyan Blue into account because we already know about the effects of God ki.

So the Goku that fought Vegeta infront of Beerus, leading him to say they were much stronger were stronger than the Goku that fought Frieza? This power they'd obtained prior to obtaining Super Saiyan Blue was just not used against anyone else afterward?

There's nothing to suggest they ever had God Ki in their Bases fully and permanently as you suggest. We do however know for a fact that Base Goku was enormously more powerful than before without God Ki and then again when fighting Frieza without God Ki.

[ekrolo2]

2,500x is much too low as SSGod gave Goku more power than even fusion and Super Vegetto is definitely more than 2,500x stronger than Base Goku and that's not even counting SSJ2 and SSJ3.

Also, Trunks' powerscaling is extremely bizarre unless you assume he somehow obtained God ki and was using it in that fight, which is supported by the fact that his new form clearly possesses God ki as evidenced by the bits of blue in his aura. It's the only way to explain a guy who's weaker than SSJ2 Goku suddenly going up to SSBlue level in a single day.

I actually think Blue is x2500 Goku's God boost. I have his Base on par with Super Vegetto, or a x500 000 increase from his previous Base power after absorbing God into SS.

Since God = SS and Blue is God's version of a Super Saiyan, making it x50 SSs x50 boost rounds out to about 2500 times Base power.

When you take all the multiplications together, Goku is 25 million times stronger with Blue than his previous Base power which was inferior to Freeza.

Pre-absorption Goku:
Base - 100
SS - 5000
SS2 - 10,000
SS3 - 40,000

Post-absorption:
Base - 1,000,000
SS/God - 50,000,000 (x500 000 Goku's old Base)
SS2 - 100,000,000
SS3 - 400,000,00
Blue - 2,500,000,000 (x2500 Goku's new Base)

[TheUltimateNinja]

2,500x is much too low as SSGod gave Goku more power than even fusion and Super Vegetto is definitely more than 2,500x stronger than Base Goku and that's not even counting SSJ2 and SSJ3.

Also, Trunks' powerscaling is extremely bizarre unless you assume he somehow obtained God ki and was using it in that fight, which is supported by the fact that his new form clearly possesses God ki as evidenced by the bits of blue in his aura. It's the only way to explain a guy who's weaker than SSJ2 Goku suddenly going up to SSBlue level in a single day.

I actually think Blue is x2500 Goku's God boost. I have his Base on par with Super Vegetto, or a x500 000 increase from his previous Base power after absorbing God into SS.

Since God = SS and Blue is God's version of a Super Saiyan, making it x50 SSs x50 boost rounds out to about 2500 times Base power.

When you take all the multiplications together, Goku is 25 million times stronger with Blue than his previous Base power which was inferior to Freeza.

But then it makes no sense that Trunks does not instantly get one-shotted by Base Goku, Goku's "regular" base must be separate from his God base and not that much stronger than before for Trunks to even stand a chance against SSJ2 Goku.

[ekrolo2]

But then it makes no sense that Trunks does not instantly get one-shotted by Base Goku, Goku's "regular" base must be separate from his God base and not that much stronger than before for Trunks to even stand a chance against SSJ2 Goku.

Of course it makes no sense: its the Super anime we're talking about, it's a convoluted mess of bad continuity and contradictions.

There's nothing at all that implies that Goku can flip God on and off besides fans needing him to so Super doesn't look awful with powers. The manga avoids this by removing this absorption nonsense but the anime makes Trunks absurdly powerful or weak at the drop of a hat.

Given his Ep57 performance, you'd think his Super Trunks mode would stomp Black and Zamasu but it doesn't.

[TheUltimateNinja]

But then it makes no sense that Trunks does not instantly get one-shotted by Base Goku, Goku's "regular" base must be separate from his God base and not that much stronger than before for Trunks to even stand a chance against SSJ2 Goku.

Of course it makes no sense: its the Super anime we're talking about, it's a convoluted mess of bad continuity and contradictions.

There's nothing at all that implies that Goku can flip God on and off besides fans needing him to so Super doesn't look awful with powers. The manga avoids this by removing this absorption nonsense but the anime makes Trunks absurdly powerful or weak at the drop of a hat.

Given his Ep57 performance, you'd think his Super Trunks mode would stomp Black and Zamasu but it doesn't.

The Super Trunks thing actually makes sense, though, if it was like going from SSJ to SSGod/SSBlue which multiplied Goku's power level several hundred-fold Trunks would one-shot both Black and Zamasu easily, the fact that he did not do so suggests he was already harnessing a lot of its power from the start which explains how he was keeping up with 3 God tiers with SSJ2. Now as for how he actually obtained the God ki we have no clue nor will it ever be explained except maybe in some guide several months/years later, but it was probably the same way Vegeta did offscreen but Trunks didn't have nearly as much time so his isn't as refined.

[Bullza]

We'll be lucky if we ever get any explanation for what Super Trunks is.

From the looks of it (and the newest episode makes this easier to see), he turns into his Ultra Super Saiyan form hence the increased strenght and weight but then the God Ki (if that's what it actually is) reigns it in by restricting his muscle mass so he maintains his original size whilst losing none of his speed.

They did recently only just show his USSJ form too when he fought Vegeta.

[Marlowe89]

Zamasu's power inside Goku's body seems to be why Black's regular Super Saiyan is altered into Super Saiyan Rose, Zamasu's non-Saiyan ki affected the transformation (but he still doesn't have godly ki in that form either). This is also why Black keeps getting stronger & stronger without any end so far, Goku may had reached his limit when it comes to near-death power-ups, but Zamasu hasn't, he still has a lot of potential left.

Was it ever said or indicated that Black's Rose form doesn't have God ki? I kind of assumed it did, just judging from the outline of the aura and its overall appearance.

I concur with everything else; it's clear that the color of Super Saiyan Rose is influenced by Zamasu's unique ki. I'd also wager a guess that Black's constantly-rising power is a combination of Goku's Saiyan zenkai and Zamasu's potential - obviously Zamasu's growth is potentially enormous, considering he went from "not standing a chance" (in Beerus' words) against a Super Saiyan 1/2 Goku in the present to being able to tango with a heightened Super Saiyan Blue Goku in Trunks' timeline.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Was it ever said or indicated that Black's Rose form doesn't have God ki? I kind of assumed it did, just judging from the outline of the aura and its overall appearance.

There hasn't been any mention of it having godly ki, and if it did, there is no way in hell that everyone would ignore it when they were gathering evidence to prove that Black is Zamasu (shortly before Black transformed, Trunks used the way Black talks about mortals as evidence that Black is Zamasu), and Black having godly ki would have been a huge piece of evidence. Yet the only thing that Trunks noticed is the different hair color. Super Saiyan Rose is also described as Black's version of regular Super Saiyan, which rivals Super Saiyan Blue. That's all.