Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

If Beerus used 10% of his power against pissed Vegeta SSJ2, and Vegeta at that point was about the strength of Goku SSJ4, is it safe to say Goku SSJG is 10x stronger than Goku SSJ4?

That means Gogeta SSJ4 > Beerus...

Not quite, Vegetas rage boost could've surpassed SSJ4 Goku by a lot. The other thing is Vegeta isn't equal to 10% of Beerus since he couldn't even scratch him in the slightest.

If this is a hypothetical BoG era Goku getting 4, then you're probably right but there's no way in hell Rageta surpassed a Goku' whos SSJ3 base strength got amplified by a boost anywhere between 500 to 5000 plus a potential unlock which SSJ4 entails.

Going purely by feats I guess Saiyan Saga Vegeta one shots SSJ3 Goku since his planet shaking power up is far more impressive than the latter's

I'm not saying using feats is stupid, I'm just saying using feats as the sole example of why one guy is stronger than another is dumb.

This isn't quite right. Gokus SSJ3 transformation did actually shake the planet as stated by Ten, but for Vegetas saiyan arc power up Goku just said it's 'like' the planet is trembling. Vegetas power up did effect the area he and Goku were in more than the SSJ3 transformation effected the area Goku and Boo were in.[/quote]

And yet the less powerful fighter affected his area a lot more than the stronger one! That means he must be stronger than SSJ3 Goku! Nah I'm just kidding, my point is that using just feats completely ignores multipliers and other factors for "This guy can blow more shit up, ergo he must be stronger!".

[Sora Saiyan]

Ekrolo2 I think Vegeta surpassed Vegetto by a good amount, so in my head he did surpass SSJ4 Goku (baby arc). It was just a ridiculous boost and makes no sense. I like DBZGTKOSDH explanation, which is that Vegeta might've tapped into some god power since it's something he has inside him since he is now pure of heart. He reached 2-3% Beerus IMO going by the showing, and Vegeta tapping into a fraction of God power would fit perfectly for a jump like that IMO.

[ekrolo2]

Ekrolo2 I think Vegeta surpassed Vegetto by a good amount, so in my head he did surpass SSJ4 Goku (baby arc). It was just a ridiculous boost and makes no sense. I like DBZGTKOSDH explanation, which is that Vegeta might've tapped into some god power since it's something he has inside him since he is now pure of heart. He reached 2-3% Beerus IMO going by the showing, and Vegeta tapping into a fraction of God power would fit perfectly for a jump like that IMO.

It's a good explanation and I think it would work if Beerus simply said Vegeta forced him to use "a good chunk of power". But once they threw out the 10% line I just can't buy him being close to Vegetto or anywhere near the GT level characters. At best I'd rank him as an equal to GT Kid Goku SSJ1 but even then I feel like I'm being too generous. I know I'm conflicting the GT Perfect Files by holding SSJ4 above him but the Perfect Files themselves don't mesh well with what's presented in the show and I honestly think nerfed Super Beerus would go down to a Vegetto of SSJ2 or 3 caliber.

[Sora Saiyan]

Why don't you think he's above Vegetto? The logical conclusion IMO is that Vegeta had to go beyond Vegetto since Goku ruled merging out after Beerus wrecked him, and at that point Beerus probably hadn't shown next to nothing of his power. We know that Goku doesn't think anything like his god form could exist which puts it above Vegetto SSJ3 IMO. Also, Goku with the tiniest fraction of his God power in Super was far too amazed by it for Vegetto to be above it IMO, he was acting like there was nothing above it at all, and I can't see Goku acting like that if Vegetto was stronger than it, especially when he had merging in mind earlier. Judging from everything that I've seen, and what's been said I don't see how Beerus is nerfed, if anything he's been buffed along with Vegetas rage boost.

[ekrolo2]

Why don't you think he's above Vegetto? The logical conclusion IMO is that Vegeta had to go beyond Vegetto since Goku ruled merging out after Beerus wrecked him, and at that point Beerus probably hadn't shown next to nothing of his power. We know that Goku doesn't think anything like his god form could exist which puts it above Vegetto SSJ3 IMO. Also, Goku with the tiniest fraction of his God power in Super was far too amazed by it for Vegetto to be above it IMO, he was acting like there was nothing above it at all, and I can't see Goku acting like that if Vegetto was stronger than it, especially when he had merging in mind earlier. Judging from everything that I've seen, and what's been said I don't see how Beerus is nerfed, if anything he's been buffed along with Vegetas rage boost.

Because I simply refuse to believe anything short of a massive ass pull could ever conceivably put Z era Vegeta short of him getting a Super Saiyan 4 level increase would put him close to the level of Vegetto, let alone completely over all the available forms Vegetto would have at his disposal. Even the explanation about how Vegeta tapped into some God mode is very fishy to me since it brings up the question of why didn't anyone insanely above his power tap into it in the Buu Saga? Gohan, Goku, and Gotenks aren't anything more than marginally stronger in BoG & Super so why didn't they tap into any latent God Ki too? I also doubt Beerus or Whis would miss out to comment on Vegeta attaining some shred of God Ki, especially since Beerus apparently commented that Goku still kept his "inner flame" going after losing SSG.

In both the movie and Super Goku does say he doubts fusion will work, however, the movie wisely keeps strength levels vague so even if Vegeta got a boost, it can still be inferred as one only somewhat above the SSJ3 multiplier for skeptics. There's also the fact Goku's basing his whole fusion not working argument before he even has a shred of an idea of what Beerus' strength is and even if he learned that Vegetto could work against Beerus, it still fits into his later comments. Goku says that he'd never attain this kind power by himself and fusion would require him to rely on Vegeta so it fits with what he's saying, and he knows Vegeta won't agree to the Potara again for obvious reasons so Vegetto is out of the picture even if God Goku admits that he'd work against Beerus.

Me grasping at straws? Probably, I'm usually not the kind of guy who just ignores what the shows saying & doing because I disagree with it, but this is the big exception I'm making. Vegeta being anywhere near even regular Vegetto is completely impossible for me and shows that Toei still loves its random GT style power increases out of nowhere for no reason.

[DragonHermit]

Well Goku in GT in base form was like Goku SSJ3 in Z, so you can imagine how strong Goku SSJ4 was

And then Gogeta SSJ4 was ridiculously O.P. I think if Gogeta SSJ4 was fighting seriously he could tear 2-3 universes apart

[The Monkey King]

I'd like for them to show Beerus seal someone in something, like how Beerus sealed the Old Kai in the Z-Sword

[Bullza]

Well Goku in GT in base form was like Goku SSJ3 in Z, so you can imagine how strong Goku SSJ4 was

Wasn't there mention of it being weaker than Super Vegito in some guide? That would contradict what was said in the show though where one of the Kai's said Baby had the greatest power he'd ever felt.

[ekrolo2]

Well Goku in GT in base form was like Goku SSJ3 in Z, so you can imagine how strong Goku SSJ4 was

Wasn't there mention of it being weaker than Super Vegito in some guide? That would contradict what was said in the show though where one of the Kai's said Baby had the greatest power he'd ever felt.

The Perfect Files also said Gohan trained which really isn't supported by the show. Like with any of the guides, take them as fact unless something in the story itself completely goes against it and sticks to that change.

[Bullza]

The comment in the guide was made after the comment in the show. If it were the other way around I'd be fine with dismissing it.

[Draconic]

I am going to interrupt the discussion a little and say that ultimately, Rageta was not 10% of Beerus. He was unharmed by what was thrown at him and for that to happen, it means Vegeta could probably hurt him and give him a fight at around 5% or 6%. It must mean that SSJ3 Goku was somewhere at 2% or maybe 3%, and Beerus fought him at 6% to 7%. That leaves room for Vegito to be able to hold up to 10% Beerus, but be utterly destroyed once Beerus goes up to 13%.

What I am trying to say is that Beerus must have used 10% of his power to defend against Vegeta's attacks, so he would escape unharmed. If Vegeta was 10% of Beerus, he would have at least scratched him. So it must mean that Beerus just didn't take any chances and Vegeta was probably much lower than that. We know that having roughly the same power level would cause harm, even minor, like when Freeza was blasted with the 20x Kamehameha. He was mostly alright, with a minor injury to his hand. Beerus had nothing at all.

This way, it leaves room for Vegeta to be stronger than Goku, while still weaker that Vegito and even if they fused they wouldn't come close to Beerus' half power, not to mention full power. So let's say SSJ Vegito is 80% of the full power of Beerus. That still 20% to be filled. In this case, SSJ4 Goku (who is said to be in the ballpark of Super Vegito) is 85%, Bebi as 75-80%, Super 17 after being charged by Goku at 90%, with Omega Shenron then closing in anywhere from 95 to 100%. This leaves SSJ4 Gogeta as stronger than Beerus by quite a lot, closing in on Whis, who is 50% stronger than Beerus.

And again, this is assuming that Super Vegito is 80% of Beerus, which is not likely, as Goku would have probably taken the chance if that was the case. If we are talking about SSJ3 Vegito being 80%, however, things don't go so well for the GT characters, but I don't count that since he is hypothetical and never took Goku to refer to him when he said fusion won't work.

[ekrolo2]

I am going to interrupt the discussion a little and say that ultimately, Rageta was not 10% of Beerus. He was unharmed by what was thrown at him and for that to happen, it means Vegeta could probably hurt him and give him a fight at around 5% or 6%. It must mean that SSJ3 Goku was somewhere at 2% or maybe 3%, and Beerus fought him at 6% to 7%. That leaves room for Vegito to be able to hold up to 10% Beerus, but be utterly destroyed once Beerus goes up to 13%.

What I am trying to say is that Beerus must have used 10% of his power to defend against Vegeta's attacks, so he would escape unharmed. If Vegeta was 10% of Beerus, he would have at least scratched him. So it must mean that Beerus just didn't take any chances and Vegeta was probably much lower than that. We know that having roughly the same power level would cause harm, even minor, like when Freeza was blasted with the 20x Kamehameha. He was mostly alright, with a minor injury to his hand. Beerus had nothing at all.

This way, it leaves room for Vegeta to be stronger than Goku, while still weaker that Vegito and even if they fused they wouldn't come close to Beerus' half power, not to mention full power. So let's say SSJ Vegito is 80% of the full power of Beerus. That still 20% to be filled. In this case, SSJ4 Goku (who is said to be in the ballpark of Super Vegito) is 85%, Bebi as 75-80%, Super 17 after being charged by Goku at 90%, with Omega Shenron then closing in anywhere from 95 to 100%. This leaves SSJ4 Gogeta as stronger than Beerus by quite a lot, closing in on Whis, who is 50% stronger than Beerus.

And again, this is assuming that Super Vegito is 80% of Beerus, which is not likely, as Goku would have probably taken the chance if that was the case. If we are talking about SSJ3 Vegito being 80%, however, things don't go so well for the GT characters, but I don't count that since he is hypothetical and never took Goku to refer to him when he said fusion won't work.

You gotta remember one thing though, Goku only doubts the fusion after getting beaten by Beerus at which point he has no idea what his power is really like. By the time he attains God we don't know what his stance on the it is once he can feel out Beerus' strength. At which point he feels comfortable enough to continue progressing on his own since the Potara means he'd stay fused with Vegeta forever so even if he came to the conclusion Vegetto would in-fact work, he doesn't need him anymore.

[Draconic]

I don't see how that is a point in favour of Beerus being weaker. When Goku says that fusion wouldn't work he barely saw anything of Beerus' power, so Vegito might not be as far above him, as a suppressed Beerus appears to be. We know characters don't even have to be 10% more powerful to dominate another, so if anything, the only thing contradicted are speculations made by fans regarding the power scaling of the Buu Saga.

He doesn't even have to know the power of Beerus anyway, he just has to know were Vegito stands compared to his SSJ3 form and then compare that to his own standing against Beerus (and judging by his reaction to the God power in Super, his expectations were far exceeded and then some) to be able to come up with a general idea. He didn't have to sense Beerus. Hell, we can't sense either of them, but can still grasp where they might fall based on previous events, so I am sure Goku could too.

Then, when you look at it from an out-of-universe perspective, I don't think we would get a line of dialogue thrown in there just because, especially since it appears that facts support it. I can take some guides getting some things wrong, even though they are official, but just writing stuff only to have it be untrue doesn't help with anything. And it's not even a Perfect-Cell-Solar-System case, where you could say that the character speaking the line might have been over-hyping his power, but quite the opposite, with Goku somewhat underestimating what Beerus is capable of.

[Sora Saiyan]

Ekrolo2 In Super, Goku is far too amazed with himself and his power when he has only just become a SSJG and not even started using hardly any of its real power. He was far too amazed with the power for Vegetto to be better, especially when he had Vegetto in mind earlier. Goku acted like there was nothing better than that power and at this point he was only using a fraction of its power, for Goku to think he stood a chance with Beerus who was using way more power than he was on Kaios is more than enough proof to place SSJG (first appearance) above Vegetto. All the signs point to Vegeta enraged being stronger than Vegetto in Super IMO since I don't believe Godku was much above 10% Beerus, if at all, when he was first formed, but looks like it's an agree to disagree situation.

[LightBing]

I see it as Goku acknowledging Beerus to be stronger than what he displayed against him. Goku did the same thing with regards to Cell and didn't even fought him. Plus Super is based on BoG and there, if we take the 10% line off, nobody thought Vegeta to be stronger than Vegetto. Toei just gave us a bone by giving us a number to realize Beerus difference in power. That said Vegetto is weaker than initial SSJG Goku.

Something like:
Beerus - 10
Initial SSJG Goku - 4,5
Vegetto(Version Goku was thinking) - 3,5
Beerus 10% - 1
Mutated Vegeta - 0,7

[Doctor.]

I personally have it like this in regards to Super/GT battle powers

Vegeta: 3%
-- Galick Gun: 6%

SS Vegetto: 0.5%
-- SS2: 1%
-- SS3: 4%

SS4 Goku: 3%
-- Surpassed limits: 6%

Yi Xing Long: 4%
-- Super Yi Xing Long: 40%

SSG Goku: 20%
-- Post power-up: 40%
-- Full power: 60%

Beerus: 100%

[Lord Beerus]

I'd like for them to show Beerus seal someone in something, like how Beerus sealed the Old Kai in the Z-Sword

Now that is something I desperately want to see and I'm kinda shocked hasn't happened yet. Even in the manga.

[singsing]

I'd like for them to show Beerus seal someone in something, like how Beerus sealed the Old Kai in the Z-Sword

Now that is something I desperately want to see and I'm kinda shocked hasn't happened yet. Even in the manga.

Yea, it'd be cool for DBZ to get more than just punching and kicking and throwing really big balls of energy.

[LightBing]

They already changed thing a bit with Beerus flashy energy attack and the contained beam struggle. Goku just spamming kamehamehas is getting boring, get some new attacks dude!

[Neon Z]

Well Goku in GT in base form was like Goku SSJ3 in Z, so you can imagine how strong Goku SSJ4 was

Wasn't there mention of it being weaker than Super Vegito in some guide? That would contradict what was said in the show though where one of the Kai's said Baby had the greatest power he'd ever felt.

The Perfect Files also said Gohan trained which really isn't supported by the show. Like with any of the guides, take them as fact unless something in the story itself completely goes against it and sticks to that change.

There's that comment from Piccolo about how Gohan's Kamehameha had gotten stronger, but I think that's the only sign that he has trained at all.