Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Trunks performance in episode 57 was thanks to a rage boost, episode 61 already confirmed this.

When was this confirmed?

When was it stated that Future Zamasu was weaker than base Black?

Black said that obtaining Goku's body gave him even greater power. If he was weaker than Future Zamasu, it would look like a stupid decision to drop his body, and he had Goku's body for years. Besides, Black is supposed to be the powerful one, while Zamasu is the immortal one. And don't forget that Black had only recently achieved Super Saiyan Rose, after his fight with SS2 Goku.

[Speedster]

OK here is my take on all this power-scaling non-sense of Super. Rage boosts are not temporary anymore. They are permanent or at least they can become permanent easily. It is like they unlock a further potential and then the characters can routinely tap into that potential without "anger".

It makes no sense for Vegeta to get any power-up from his 5 months in RoSaT through pure training given that he spent 3 YEARS with Goku there (and sparring is supposed to be much more effective) and didn't receive much of a power up (he even said before entering that he expected to have diminishing returns). Black was correct. Vegeta’s power up is just an unlocked rage boost. In his 5 months in RoSaT he just kept getting angrier thinking of Black, he received rage boosts and then he learned how to tap into that potential and become permanently more powerful.

Also pretty sure that the rage boost that Goku had against Black and Zamasu (when he learned about Black killing his family) became permanent too. Then he somehow further ass-pulled some further power-up after he healed up (presumably a call-back to Zenkais) and he got on par with Vegeta. Similarly Trunks’ “rage-boosted Super Saiyan” form (which is not a transformation) is also permanent. And Rageta was also permanent. Remember Whis telling Vegeta in episode 16 that he was "now more powerful than ever was but still not in Beerus level"? What was that 2 months after BoGs? How can Vegeta be more powerful than ever then if he couldn't tap into Rageta mode power? So Rageta was simply permanent. Which also explains how Vegeta caught up with post-BoGs Goku in just 6-7 months.

That is how things work in Super now. You become stronger by becoming angrier. Convert anger into power was the title of an episode. That is exactly what happens.

[ZombieVito]

Trunks performance in episode 57 was thanks to a rage boost, episode 61 already confirmed this.

When was this confirmed?

When was it stated that Future Zamasu was weaker than base Black?

Black said that obtaining Goku's body gave him even greater power. If he was weaker than Future Zamasu, it would look like a stupid decision to drop his body, and he had Goku's body for years. Besides, Black is supposed to be the powerful one, while Zamasu is the immortal one. And don't forget that Black had only recently achieved Super Saiyan Rose, after his fight with SS2 Goku.

The moment Trunks couldn't touch Black and Vegeta could in episode 61. Also you can't ignore his aura growing three times it's size. We can even theorize it was a precursor to his Super Trunks transformation.

Future Zamasu is more powerful simply because he's older and trained more, even Goku implies this when they begin to fight in episode 57. While Black ended up weaker than him initially, it was not a stupid decision since he grew way stronger than his future self thanks to Goku's body.

[HeroR]

There is no consistency among the Super Saiyan forms anymore in the anime.

On one hand:

• Enraged SS2 Vegeta forced Beerus to use 10% of his power.
• SSG Goku forced Beerus to use most of his power, but not his full power.
• SS Goku became as strong as SSG by absorbing its power, and then he surpassed SSG through his fight with Beerus.
• After BoG, Base Goku & Vegeta can sense god ki because they have reached the required level to do so, and they are stronger than SS3 Gotenks & Ultimate Gohan.

On the other hand:

• SS & SS2 are dozens of times stronger than base.
• SS3 is significantly stronger than SS2, since SS3 Goku easily one-shoted SS2 Trunks.
• SSB is significantly stronger than SS3. Base Black was initially as SS3 level, and then became even stronger, and after turning into SSR, which is his version of regular SS, he came to SSB level.
• Kaio-ken x10 SSB is still weaker than Beerus.

Also there is SS2 Trunks, who gets one-shot by base Black & SS3 Goku, but can fight against Future Zamasu (who can give some trouble to a SSB) & SSR Black (who is at SSB level) for some reason. Also, Trunks is on the same level as Goku & Vegeta when in the same form (he can use base, SS, and SS2, and his Super form is on par with SSB), if not stronger, but he can't sense god ki even in his SS2 form, while Goku & Vegeta can do that in base because they are strong enough to do so. He is also stronger than SS kid Trunks in his base form. He also has SS hair in his SS2 form, what the fuck?!

And let's not forget that Future Zamasu is supposed to give trouble to SSB level fighters even without his immortality, but he is weaker than base Black was even at his first appearance.

Toei has screwed up. Not even the 2 base theory saves it now.

Vegeta didn't force Beerus to used 10% of his power. Beerus just said he used 10%, which was more than enough to slap Vegeta out of his rage form. He never once implied he needed to used that much power to beat Vegeta.

Beerus said to Whis that he was lying to Goku about how much of his power he was using to push Goku. So everything Beerus said about his power to Goku isn't exactly reliable, especially since he claimed at one point to be using his full power.

Trunks got shots on Zamasu because he keeps dropping his guard because he's an immortal. Both Goku and Trunks have stated this and we saw from Reserrection 'F' that lowering your guard can get you killed even by a weak attack. And when was it said Trunks' power was equal to Goku or Vegeta in the same form? Super Saiyan 2 Goku only blocked Trunks' attacks and easily caught his fists. We also never even saw the fight between kid Trunks and Trunks, so how can you reach any conclusions from that? I

[Hugo Boss]

OK here is my take on all this power-scaling non-sense of Super. Rage boosts are not temporary anymore. They are permanent or at least they can become permanent easily. It is like they unlock a further potential and then the characters can routinely tap into that potential without "anger".

It makes no sense for Vegeta to get any power-up from his 5 months in RoSaT through pure training given that he spent 3 YEARS with Goku there (and sparring is supposed to be much more effective) and didn't receive much of a power up (he even said before entering that he expected to have diminishing returns). Black was correct. Vegeta’s power up is just an unlocked rage boost. In his 5 months in RoSaT he just kept getting angrier thinking of Black, he received rage boosts and then he learned how to tap into that potential and become permanently more powerful.

Also pretty sure that the rage boost that Goku had against Black and Zamasu (when he learned about Black killing his family) became permanent too. Then he somehow further ass-pulled some further power-up after he healed up (presumably a call-back to Zenkais) and he got on par with Vegeta. Similarly Trunks’ “rage-boosted Super Saiyan” form (which is not a transformation) is also permanent. And Rageta was also permanent. Remember Whis telling Vegeta in episode 16 that he was "now more powerful than ever was but still not in Beerus level"? What was that 2 months after BoGs? How can Vegeta be more powerful than ever then if he couldn't tap into Rageta mode power? So Rageta was simply permanent. Which also explains how Vegeta caught up with post-BoGs Goku in just 6-7 months.

That is how things work in Super now. You become stronger by becoming angrier. Convert anger into power was the title of an episode. That is exactly what happens.

I agree with everything but the underlined text. It seems Super Saiyan Trunks has two forms, implying there should be a transformation between them.

[TheUltimateNinja]

What's all this talk of Rageta being 10% of Beerus? It's total nonsese. He got wrecked instantly so even if Beerus was actually using 10%, Rageta would only be like 5% or something. Plus, we know Beerus was mostly bullshitting about his power during that entire arc so his statements there hold minimal value. Plus this would put Rageta above SSG Goku and even SSBlue Goku.

[Alruneia]

What's all this talk of Rageta being 10% of Beerus? It's total nonsese. He got wrecked instantly so even if Beerus was actually using 10%, Rageta would only be like 5% or something. Plus, we know Beerus was mostly bullshitting about his power during that entire arc so his statements there hold minimal value. Plus this would put Rageta above SSG Goku and even SSBlue Goku.

Beerus used 10 % of his power to completely tank "MY BULMA" Vegeta's attacks, yes. Vegeta in that form isn't necessarily stronger than 2 % -3 % Beerus.
...Of Beerus' BoG power, that is, since apparently his full power is much higher than what he used then.

[TheUltimateNinja]

What's all this talk of Rageta being 10% of Beerus? It's total nonsese. He got wrecked instantly so even if Beerus was actually using 10%, Rageta would only be like 5% or something. Plus, we know Beerus was mostly bullshitting about his power during that entire arc so his statements there hold minimal value. Plus this would put Rageta above SSG Goku and even SSBlue Goku.

Beerus used 10 % of his power to completely tank "MY BULMA" Vegeta's attacks, yes. Vegeta in that form isn't necessarily stronger than 2 % -3 % Beerus.
...Of Beerus' BoG power, that is, since apparently his full power is much higher than what he used then.

Even that seems too high. SSG was superior to fusion at that time and unless fusion got majorly nerfed, Vegeta shouldn't be even 0.1% of Beerus.

[ekrolo2]

What's all this talk of Rageta being 10% of Beerus? It's total nonsese. He got wrecked instantly so even if Beerus was actually using 10%, Rageta would only be like 5% or something. Plus, we know Beerus was mostly bullshitting about his power during that entire arc so his statements there hold minimal value. Plus this would put Rageta above SSG Goku and even SSBlue Goku.

Beerus used 10 % of his power to completely tank "MY BULMA" Vegeta's attacks, yes. Vegeta in that form isn't necessarily stronger than 2 % -3 % Beerus.
...Of Beerus' BoG power, that is, since apparently his full power is much higher than what he used then.

Even that seems too high. SSG was superior to fusion at that time and unless fusion got majorly nerfed, Vegeta shouldn't be even 0.1% of Beerus.

Hence the problems with this line. If Beerus said it was 1% like some fansubbers mistranslated it into back in the early days of Super, we'd have no real issues here. But with that line and KK, it looks as though Rageta is still vastly superior to even SSBlue Goku & Vegeta which is completely ridiculous but that's where things are pointing to unfortunately.

[Smilodon]

Goku has to below 1/10th of Beerus as Beerus is stronger than Kaioken x10 Goku.

I prefer to think that Kaioken x10 isn't 10 x power anymore....If it was true, Goku could use a 10x Kaioken and defeat Black easily, instead get almost dead twice (even when he listened that Zamasu killed Goten and Chi Chi)...Maybe the x10 Kaioken only increase 10% in his god power now.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Beerus used 10 % of his power to completely tank "MY BULMA" Vegeta's attacks, yes. Vegeta in that form isn't necessarily stronger than 2 % -3 % Beerus.
...Of Beerus' BoG power, that is, since apparently his full power is much higher than what he used then.

Even that seems too high. SSG was superior to fusion at that time and unless fusion got majorly nerfed, Vegeta shouldn't be even 0.1% of Beerus.

Hence the problems with this line. If Beerus said it was 1% like some fansubbers mistranslated it into back in the early days of Super, we'd have no real issues here. But with that line and KK, it looks as though Rageta is still vastly superior to even SSBlue Goku & Vegeta which is completely ridiculous but that's where things are pointing to unfortunately.

Maybe in the manga where Kaioken isn't a thing, but in the anime even 1% isn't acceptable.

[Legion]

Beerus use 10 % of his power against Vegeta it can be toei bullshit. The manga did not say anything about it.

[apex_pretador]

What's all this talk of Rageta being 10% of Beerus? It's total nonsese. He got wrecked instantly so even if Beerus was actually using 10%, Rageta would only be like 5% or something. Plus, we know Beerus was mostly bullshitting about his power during that entire arc so his statements there hold minimal value. Plus this would put Rageta above SSG Goku and even SSBlue Goku.

Agreed

Hell, beerus never even said that he was using 10%, or needed to use 10%.

He just said that he hasn't used 10% power in a long time.

[Saturnine]

Yeah, as of right now it's pretty obvious that pissed Vegeta cannot be anywhere remotely near 10% of Beerus.

If only for the fact that KKx10 Blue Goku was supposedly still below Beerus. Even if he weren't, you still have to count in the abyss between Vegeta's power then and SSj Blue. There is just no way.

They were probably designing that statement with 6-10-15 still in mind, so the decision to make Goku and Vegeta not surpass Beerus anytime soon might have come afterwards. A sudden change of direction for the show if you will. That's the only way to explain it.

[ssbgoku]

Too be honest, there is no full issue with this beerus's 10% line and ssb kaioken. I mean the fact alone that beerus used 10% of his power to easily effortessly one shot enraged mutated ss2 vegeta could be leggit, as beerus could overdo it as vegeta would be even 1% of beerus only. However the problem is with beerus getting more excited and visibly power up at least few times after he already was 10%. Which could easily be at least 12%, then we know ssb > ssg and multiply ten times make him > beerus.

For me kaioken was wrong move especially stacked up on ssb, maybe there is weakness about it as ki leaking and goku getting constantly weaker/dropping in power while using it, so it could be multiplying your power ten times, and rapidly getting weaker from ki leaking and body getting damaged so in short time goku would drop so much that beerus would be supperior again... It just doesn't make sense for beerus to be > ssb x10 kaioken with 10% line against Vegeta.

Also this:

OK here is my take on all this power-scaling non-sense of Super. Rage boosts are not temporary anymore. They are permanent or at least they can become permanent easily. It is like they unlock a further potential and then the characters can routinely tap into that potential without "anger".

It makes no sense for Vegeta to get any power-up from his 5 months in RoSaT through pure training given that he spent 3 YEARS with Goku there (and sparring is supposed to be much more effective) and didn't receive much of a power up (he even said before entering that he expected to have diminishing returns). Black was correct. Vegeta’s power up is just an unlocked rage boost. In his 5 months in RoSaT he just kept getting angrier thinking of Black, he received rage boosts and then he learned how to tap into that potential and become permanently more powerful.

Also pretty sure that the rage boost that Goku had against Black and Zamasu (when he learned about Black killing his family) became permanent too. Then he somehow further ass-pulled some further power-up after he healed up (presumably a call-back to Zenkais) and he got on par with Vegeta. Similarly Trunks’ “rage-boosted Super Saiyan” form (which is not a transformation) is also permanent. And Rageta was also permanent. Remember Whis telling Vegeta in episode 16 that he was "now more powerful than ever was but still not in Beerus level"? What was that 2 months after BoGs? How can Vegeta be more powerful than ever then if he couldn't tap into Rageta mode power? So Rageta was simply permanent. Which also explains how Vegeta caught up with post-BoGs Goku in just 6-7 months.

That is how things work in Super now. You become stronger by becoming angrier. Convert anger into power was the title of an episode. That is exactly what happens.

[HeroR]

Goku has to below 1/10th of Beerus as Beerus is stronger than Kaioken x10 Goku.

I prefer to think that Kaioken x10 isn't 10 x power anymore....If it was true, Goku could use a 10x Kaioken and defeat Black easily, instead get almost dead twice (even when he listened that Zamasu killed Goten and Chi Chi)...Maybe the x10 Kaioken only increase 10% in his god power now.

The anime went into detail why Goku can't just used the Kaioken any time he wants.

[Bullza]

New episode.

At first I was thought surely Zamasu has to be stronger than Beerus because he beat them both like they were nothing. Beerus didn't beat SSJG Goku nearly as easily, holding back or not.

However then Future Trunks and SSJB Vegeta overpowered his blast which I suppose wouldn't make Merged Zamasu so much as twice as strong and SSJB Goku was holding in there too.

But then there was the preview and it does look as though SSJB Vegito is going to be a thing and it doesn't look like he's going to making a joke of Zamasu like he did Janemba, Buu and Omega Shenron. I'll have to look again but did we see another form of Zamasu? I'm sure he was purple.

If they're not above Beerus then I don't know what's going on.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The moment Trunks couldn't touch Black and Vegeta could in episode 61. Also you can't ignore his aura growing three times it's size. We can even theorize it was a precursor to his Super Trunks transformation.

Rage boosts last for a moment. Trunks' fight in episode 57 didn't last for a moment. And what moment in episode 61 are you talking about? You have to be more specific.

Future Zamasu is more powerful simply because he's older and trained more, even Goku implies this when they begin to fight in episode 57. While Black ended up weaker than him initially, it was not a stupid decision since he grew way stronger than his future self thanks to Goku's body.

I don't disagree with you that Future Zamasu is stronger than Present Zamasu, but you believe that Black surpassed Future Zamasu when he achieved Super Saiyan Rose and was weaker than Future Zamasu all these years?

Vegeta didn't force Beerus to used 10% of his power. Beerus just said he used 10%, which was more than enough to slap Vegeta out of his rage form. He never once implied he needed to used that much power to beat Vegeta.

Vegeta's rage boost was gone when Beerus slapped him. He forced Beerus to use 10% of his power, or else he would have taken damage from Vegeta's attacks.

Beerus said to Whis that he was lying to Goku about how much of his power he was using to push Goku. So everything Beerus said about his power to Goku isn't exactly reliable, especially since he claimed at one point to be using his full power.

Beerus was lying to Goku, but this had nothing to do with his fight with Vegeta fight. Not only that, but it is heavily implied that Beerus was using most of his power against SSG Goku. He was surprised that Whis noticed he wasn't using his full power, and he considers Goku a fighter strong enough to fight him. He was holding back, but can't be below 10% against SSG Goku.

Trunks got shots on Zamasu because he keeps dropping his guard because he's an immortal. Both Goku and Trunks have stated this and we saw from Reserrection 'F' that lowering your guard can get you killed even by a weak attack.

Trunks was repeatedly catching Zamasu's hits in the air, this has nothing to do with him dropping his guard.

And when was it said Trunks' power was equal to Goku or Vegeta in the same form? Super Saiyan 2 Goku only blocked Trunks' attacks and easily caught his fists.

Trunks wasn't using his full power though, so at full power they should be at around the same level. SS2 Goku wasn't miles ahead of SS2 Trunks, or he wouldn't have to use SS3.

We also never even saw the fight between kid Trunks and Trunks, so how can you reach any conclusions from that? I

We saw that Future Trunks never transformed, while SS Trunks was tired.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The fuck? Why is Merged Zamasu so weak?

[Bullza]

The fuck? Why is Merged Zamasu so weak?

Going by the preview for the next episode it doesn't look like he is because he's giving SSJB Vegito a real good go of it. So either he wasn't giving it everything he had against the three (you'd still think he'd stomp effortlessly) or SSJB Vegito isn't as big of a boost as it seemed to be back in the Buu saga.

Or Merged Zamasu is less than twice as strong as each of them but this purple monster form of his makes him even more powerful still and that's what allows him to fight Vegito.