"Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minus")

[Kid Buu]

Yeah it's kind of hard to buy into the idea of Saiyan Class rankings when Zenkai boosts are random so they can go from any power level if they manage to survive a brutal battle.

[Gaffer Tape]

Haha, funnily enough, I was JUST thinking about how Bardock's battle power in the special annoys me! And someone earlier in the thread mentioned the seeming continuity error of Goku being happy when Gohan picks him up at the end. And I can agree that's a problem too. The thing is, plot holes are easier to tolerate if the story is good enough to justify them. If done well, they're basically the story saying, "I'm sorry about that, but I promise the payoff is worth it." For the happy Goku thing, I feel it makes tonal sense to end the special on a hopeful note, so I can overlook the fact that Goku doesn't seem to be in character in that one small moment. But when plotholes abound in a work that isn't really good enough to justify them? Eh, that's more of a problem, and considering that DB Minus is already very poorly written, structured, and paced, AND significantly alters or contradicts important pieces of the story, it's hard for me to give it credit.

But I will close this out by mentioning something I really liked about it: I thought Gine's skirted armor was funny and cute, and I want one.

[Kid Buu]

Then again, maybe Toriyama has been shitting all over that aspect all along. While it's true the basis of Goku/Vegeta's rivalry is low class surpassing high class, he sure as hell made sure that humans don't surpass aliens. Not to mention Gohan was born special with that potential!

[RandomGuy96]

There IS that stuff about Goku having "immeasurable latent power" in BOG, which he supervised, and that stuff about Bardock and by extension Goku being special, which he apparently liked. Also, Gohan; to be fair, he did have to train and work for his power, but the power he gained from doing the same work dwarfed everyone else's largely because he was just born strong. Then he pretty much completely abandons that whole idea by introducing Goten and Trunks, who are stronger than Piccolo, and then giving them fusion, making them stronger than Goku and Vegeta, despite them never doing a day of serious training in their lives.

Ironically, the most frequent violator of "hard work > laziness and birth right" is Goku himself. Yamcha and Krillin train their entire lives along with Goku? Doesn't matter, Goku is a saiyan, so they always get beaten up by foes he one-shots. Roshi spent 50 years mastering the Kamehameha? Goku can use it immediately. Tenshinhan, who literally trains every day of his life, actually gets on par with Goku? Too bad, Goku drank some magic water, so now Ten is eternally worthless.

[Kid Buu]

Doesn't Goku also abuse the Zenkai via self-harm despite Vegeta saying that wouldn't work with him?

[TheGmGoken]

Doesn't Goku also abuse the Zenkai via self-harm despite Vegeta saying that wouldn't work with him?

I don't think Goku kicked his own ass on purpose. It just happen

[Kamiccolo9]

Doesn't Goku also abuse the Zenkai via self-harm despite Vegeta saying that wouldn't work with him?

I don't think Goku kicked his own ass on purpose. It just happen

He shot Kamehamehas at himself. That doesn't just "happen."

[TheGmGoken]

Doesn't Goku also abuse the Zenkai via self-harm despite Vegeta saying that wouldn't work with him?

I don't think Goku kicked his own ass on purpose. It just happen

He shot Kamehamehas at himself. That doesn't just "happen."

Wasn't he trying to dodge them though?

[Kamiccolo9]

Wasn't he trying to dodge them though?

When he got hit, he was in the same place he was when he fired them. And why would that matter anyway? He's still shooting Kamehamehas at himself. What else would he expect to happen if he got hit?

[TheGmGoken]

Wasn't he trying to dodge them though?

When he got hit, he was in the same place he was when he fired them. And why would that matter anyway? He's still shooting Kamehamehas at himself. What else would he expect to happen if he got hit?

Is that in the manga? Watching anime atm and seems like Goku couldn't dodge. It matters cause it not abuse

[Kamiccolo9]

Wasn't he trying to dodge them though?

When he got hit, he was in the same place he was when he fired them. And why would that matter anyway? He's still shooting Kamehamehas at himself. What else would he expect to happen if he got hit?

Is that in the manga? Watching anime atm and seems like Goku couldn't dodge. It matters cause it not abuse

It's in the manga. And what do you mean "it's not abuse?" He's training himself by hitting himself with his own attacks.

[TheGmGoken]

I meant he might be training his reaction time and speed.

[Mewzard]

Haha, funnily enough, I was JUST thinking about how Bardock's battle power in the special annoys me! And someone earlier in the thread mentioned the seeming continuity error of Goku being happy when Gohan picks him up at the end. And I can agree that's a problem too. The thing is, plot holes are easier to tolerate if the story is good enough to justify them. If done well, they're basically the story saying, "I'm sorry about that, but I promise the payoff is worth it." For the happy Goku thing, I feel it makes tonal sense to end the special on a hopeful note, so I can overlook the fact that Goku doesn't seem to be in character in that one small moment. But when plotholes abound in a work that isn't really good enough to justify them? Eh, that's more of a problem, and considering that DB Minus is already very poorly written, structured, and paced, AND significantly alters or contradicts important pieces of the story, it's hard for me to give it credit.

But I will close this out by mentioning something I really liked about it: I thought Gine's skirted armor was funny and cute, and I want one.

The contradictions of Bardock being the low class warrior that is somehow strong enough to warrant Freeza to move to ending the Saiyan race, and gets to be the one special Saiyan with the psychic ability to see the future? Goku's a happy child despite being a little wild bastard until he hits his head? I'd say there were more problems with the original Special than Minus when it comes to plot issues (and the psychic thing is just ridiculous...at least Bardock trusting his instincts in a suspicious circumstances makes more sense than spinal stabs letting you see the future).

I much prefer that Freeza's fear of the legends of the Saiyan people leads him to actually planning ahead, and making sure to give the Saiyans ample time to return to the planet than Freeza doing it on a last-minute whim. What would the odds even be that of a race of space-fairing, planet conquering warriors that all but four people (well, five counting Tarble) would be on planet? Gathering them together makes far more sense.

Also, even through brief glances, I feel we got to see more of Saiyan society in the special. We see a job where non-combatants can work in such a society, we see how Saiyan Babies are treated through their most helpless stage, that they have things like festivals, and even how their planet looks like in places, and what their housing looks like.

Obviously, it also works well in continuity with Jaco, and most of DB itself as well with fewer issues than the TV Special did.

It's also nice to see Raditz wasn't forgotten about, and both him knowing of Goku's arrival on Earth (albeit, not why) and how it spread of the planet being destroyed by a meteor.

It was short, but I feel for the length it was, Toriyama did a good amount with it (Trunks' Origin story in the manga was also a little on the short side compared to a TV Special). I wouldn't say it was bad, though I can understand feeling it was too short/too rushed.

[Kamiccolo9]

I meant he might be training his reaction time and speed.

Why does it matter what he was intending to train? The result is what is important.

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P8.3-4
Context: Narrator commenting on Goku’s increasing strength.
Narrator: “Goku had continued this insane pattern of pushing his body and ki to the brink of death, then refreshing himself again by eating a senzu. The 7 senzu he received from Lord Karin have already fallen to only 3…However, though this training is outrageous, perhaps Goku has somehow realized the Saiyan characteristic of their strength increasing when they overcome death

This is said directly after Goku heals himself from being hurt by his Kamehameha. It's pretty obvious that Goku realizes what's going on. Otherwise, why even bother mentioning it?

[TheGmGoken]

I meant he might be training his reaction time and speed.

Why does it matter what he was intending to train? The result is what is important.

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P8.3-4
Context: Narrator commenting on Goku’s increasing strength.
Narrator: “Goku had continued this insane pattern of pushing his body and ki to the brink of death, then refreshing himself again by eating a senzu. The 7 senzu he received from Lord Karin have already fallen to only 3…However, though this training is outrageous, perhaps Goku has somehow realized the Saiyan characteristic of their strength increasing when they overcome death

This is said directly after Goku heals himself from being hurt by his Kamehameha. It's pretty obvious that Goku realizes what's going on. Otherwise, why even bother mentioning it?

As i said. I didn't know if scene was in manga

[JeffJarrett]

The contradictions of Bardock being the low class warrior that is somehow strong enough to warrant Freeza to move to ending the Saiyan race, and gets to be the one special Saiyan with the psychic ability to see the future? Goku's a happy child despite being a little wild bastard until he hits his head? I'd say there were more problems with the original Special than Minus when it comes to plot issues (and the psychic thing is just ridiculous...at least Bardock trusting his instincts in a suspicious circumstances makes more sense than spinal stabs letting you see the future).

I much prefer that Freeza's fear of the legends of the Saiyan people leads him to actually planning ahead, and making sure to give the Saiyans ample time to return to the planet than Freeza doing it on a last-minute whim. What would the odds even be that of a race of space-fairing, planet conquering warriors that all but four people (well, five counting Tarble) would be on planet? Gathering them together makes far more sense.

Too much time passed, Toriyama forgot important elements from his original manga. Goku being a low class Saiyan, the one considered a trash as a baby who, thanks to great efforts and training, is now able to surpass the Prince of his planet and defeat the most powerful beings in the universe, and most of all avenge his race from Frieza. Bardock being cursed and untrusted when trying to save his race is way more intersting than being the only one of a thousand Saiyans who find it strange Frieza gathered them all on the planet in emergency and they stayed there for one month waiting he kills them without wondering anything. The TV special implies Bardock wasn't the only Saiyan strong enough to warrant Freeza to move to ending the Saiyan race, he was one among many other. But what made him special like his son was that, despite being alone and having no chance to defeat Frieza, he was couragrous enough to try. It is now told that Goku wasn't considered a trash on his planet, and his parents loved him. He isn't special anymore. He isn't that weakling who became the strongest thanks to his courage and efforts. He is just a regular Saiyan who was spared from Frieza's genocide thanks to his parents.

[Mewzard]

Well, first Goku was a parallel of Sun Wukong from Journey to the West, then he became a Superman-lite with his origin change to baby sent off of his planet just before its destruction, but this doesn't change Goku being a low class Saiyan. He was pretty low level compared to all the other Saiyans despite being trained by the Earth's best and gaining some skills. Honestly, things were too easy for Goku compared to most of the other characters, but none of his "hard work" was removed by this.

Random psychic powers just in time to see the impending destruction of his planet is an asspull of the highest order. At least Toriyama makes Bardock have a more reasonable solution (one that makes him come off as a little more clever than the rest, but at the same time, not extremely kind, as he never bothered telling any other parents of his feelings...); and maybe others did figure it out. Perhaps Freeza simply killed those who could be tracked with a scouter as leaving (hence not going with Goku), or those who tried to face him. We don't know exactly what happened in that month. Just because Bardock was the first, doesn't mean he would be the last to figure it out.

Goku's birth isn't what makes Goku special. What made Goku special was what happened after he hit his head. Goku doesn't remember a damn thing of his parents, and wouldn't think them as being any better or worse than the rest of the planet.

Goku was considered trash by the old surviving Saiyans, and I doubt a single Saiyan outside of Bardock and Gine cared about him, so it doesn't change a lot in that regard.

There's nothing wrong with Goku having parents who cared (if anything that still makes him special *given the Saiyan race*, just in a different way).

Bardock being influenced by his unconventional mate and softening a little in regards to his family isn't a bad thing. It's far more interesting when a tougher character has some soft spot on them than just being the "Tough Badass" 24/7. Even Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star would shed a manly tear or two after killing someone close to him from his past or who was driven to being the villain they were due to a tragedy.

[Saiga]

While I dislike Bardock being so powerful in the special, I never got the problem with the psychic powers. I think it makes perfect sense for a race out there in the universe to have such abilities, even granting them to other people. And they were a bad thing. They didn't make Bardock special, they cursed him. He was given the ability to see his races destruction not so he could save it but because there was nothing he could do about it. I do like that Minus has him simply be suspicious of Freeza because it's nice to do something different but I just don't see anything wrong with the psychic abilities from the original.

But I agree with most of what GafferTape has said in regards to Minus. In addition, I also had no problem with it not following the original special, and would prefer it to do its own thing... but it didn't really do either. It didn't have enough substance to be its own thing, something that lacking probably only could have worked if it was meant to be an addition to the special, as in "here's what you didn't see from the original special". So it makes me feel that Minus has some dependence on the original special despite not being consistent with it.

[Chuquita]

Anyone else curious as to what saiyajin festivals are like? Bardock mentions them in passing after greeting Gine.

[garnetjester]

IIRC it's a translation thing, in the original version Bardock just tells Gine that the town is bustling because everyone was ordered to return by Freeza. I guess saiyan festivals would just be fighting tournaments and lots of food and drink