Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

I didn't think he was supposed to be extra durable for his power level. Goku also seemed like he was going to survive the explosion of Namek based on some of the comments made.

I thought it was perhaps more to do with how he could survive being chopped in half as opposed to others perhaps because his organs were placed differently.

[HeroR]

I didn't think he was supposed to be extra durable for his power level. Goku also seemed like he was going to survive the explosion of Namek based on some of the comments made.

I thought it was perhaps more to do with how he could survive being chopped in half as opposed to others perhaps because his organs were placed differently.

But Goku wasn't half dead either. Freeza has extreme survivable, which also goes hand with durability, otherwise he would have never survived being chopped in half.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Can someone explain to me how Hit's time skip works?

I rewatched the fight and something stood out to me. When Goku first uses the Kaioken he can move even when Hit stops time and explains he's at a level beyond that. I initially thought he'd just become so fast he could travel through stopped time.

However by the next episode Hit says he'd extended his time skip even further and now he can stop Goku again.

Stopped time is just stopped time. Why does him just stopping time a tad longer suddenly make it so Goku can no longer travel through it?

The other thing that's odd is that it's implied Hit can't increase his strenght but just the limit of his time skip but after Hit extended it and knocked Goku down, Goku said "Hit's powered up attack really hurt. I can only take a couple more of em at best".

So does he get stronger when his time skip extends or what? Afterall he wasn't instantly beaten after Goku used Kaioken and he could power up in the manga.

I have hit getting proportionally stronger as his time skip extends, ie: 2x at 0.2x. 5x at 0.5s.

This is supported by the anime as Hit's attacks also do more damage, initially he's about even with or even slightly below SSBlue Goku but once he goes to 0.2s he wrecks him easily, then he starts getting demolished by Kaioken x10 Goku but is once again able to put up a fight once his timeskip extends to 0.5s, especially when Goku's energy starts burning out.

Just saying he does improve again after the 0.5s but doesn't state the time, So if you're going with that then he has improved more than 5x than his initial number.

Yeah, I rate their powers like so:
Goku: Base: 10 SSBlue: 15 Kaioken x10: 150 Ki draining: 100 and dropping
Hit: Initial: 15 0.2s: 30 0.5s: 75 Final: 90

[buutenks]

Well whatever it is, Freeza's 'special' durability didnt help him survive against Trunks or survive Goku's kameha.

Plus i think you r confusing surviving while cut in half with surviving a planetary explosion.

Freeza survived being cut in half, not due to durability, but because of his anatomy. And he survived the planet explosion because Goku gave him some ki and most likely Goku held back on that blast. So Freeza had plenty of ki left to survive Namek's explosion.

Point is, Freeza doesnt have special durability. If android 18 fires a ki blast at him, he will get vaporized, if android 18 fires a ki blast at Super Vegeta, at best it will annoy Vegeta.

Also, never was it once stated that the explosion will kill Goku. Freeza kept babling on and on about how the planet will go boom and Goku will die due to lack of oxygen. Freeza while cut in half even laughed that he(Freeza), the loser will survive, while Goku, the winner will die due to not being able to survive in space.

[HeroR]

Freeza having a special anatomy is more head canon, and Freeza was still alive even after Trunks cut him to bits. What killed him was being vaporize, which kills almost anyone. This was the same person who was revived in pieces, a state that would have killed anyone else. He even tried to put himself back together.

And Goku isn't a good comparison since Goku wasn't sliced into quarters, blasted, and then have the planet explode. Goku would still have most of his ki to save him vs. Freeza who was half-dead.

[ekrolo2]

With this Yamamuro poster, BoG is definitively worthless and Goku & Vegeta should give the fuck up if not even their best fusion can beat Beerus.

[LightBing]

With this Yamamuro poster, BoG is definitively worthless and Goku & Vegeta should give the fuck up if not even their best fusion can beat Beerus.

I wonder if the manga will give us any power comparisons. Or if this is just the anime people taking Mr.Toriyama's: "Not planing Beerus to be surpassed any time soon", way to literally.
Because this just makes the whole premise of BoG void. God Goku certainly wasn't a worthy opponent for Beerus, not even entertaining.

[ekrolo2]

With this Yamamuro poster, BoG is definitively worthless and Goku & Vegeta should give the fuck up if not even their best fusion can beat Beerus.

I wonder if the manga will give us any power comparisons. Or if this is just the anime people taking Mr.Toriyama's: "Not planing Beerus to be surpassed any time soon", way to literally.
Because this just makes the whole premise of BoG void. God Goku certainly wasn't a worthy opponent for Beerus, not even entertaining.

It also retroactively makes the already infamous Rageta 10% comment that much worse. Unless the fusion is a far lesser power increase than we ever thought, barely x10 at absolute best, SSGod Goku is even more inferior to Vegeta during his fit of rage against Beerus than before!

[HeroR]

With this Yamamuro poster, BoG is definitively worthless and Goku & Vegeta should give the fuck up if not even their best fusion can beat Beerus.

I wonder if the manga will give us any power comparisons. Or if this is just the anime people taking Mr.Toriyama's: "Not planing Beerus to be surpassed any time soon", way to literally.
Because this just makes the whole premise of BoG void. God Goku certainly wasn't a worthy opponent for Beerus, not even entertaining.

According to the manga, Goku and Vegeta are nowhere near Beerus in power even after the events of the Champa Saga. So them fusion can still be weaker than Beerus.

Also, I wouldn't say Goku and Vegeta should 'hang it up' since they surpassed Vegetto once already. It's just that Vegetto isn't the most powerful thing in existence that fans wanked him to be.

It also retroactively makes the already infamous Rageta 10% comment that much worse. Unless the fusion is a far lesser power increase than we ever thought, barely x10 at absolute best, SSGod Goku is even more inferior to Vegeta during his fit of rage against Beerus than before!

Rageta didn't do anything to Beerus, especially compared to the movie, and Beerus never once said he needed to used 10% of his power to put Vegeta down, just like Freeza didn't need 50% to smash Goku into the ground. He didn't even need 25%.

[ekrolo2]

[According to the manga, Goku and Vegeta are nowhere near Beerus in power even after the events of the Champa Saga. So them fusion can still be weaker than Beerus.
Also, I wouldn't say Goku and Vegeta should 'hang it up' since they surpassed Vegetto once already. It's just that Vegetto isn't the most powerful thing in existence that fans wanked him to be.

The manga doesn't excuse the anime being stupid. Unless fusion has been massively nerfed to an absurd degree, this makes SSGod Goku retroactively even more inferior to even Rageta, never mind Beerus.Also, there are several named and unnamed characters already stronger than Beerus. I think Vegetto temporarily existing and being stronger than him isn't wanking too much. I don't even care for Vegetto as a character much at all but when his nearfing makes previous problems more glaring, it warrants addressing.

[HeroR]

[According to the manga, Goku and Vegeta are nowhere near Beerus in power even after the events of the Champa Saga. So them fusion can still be weaker than Beerus.
Also, I wouldn't say Goku and Vegeta should 'hang it up' since they surpassed Vegetto once already. It's just that Vegetto isn't the most powerful thing in existence that fans wanked him to be.

The manga doesn't excuse the anime being stupid. Unless fusion has been massively nerfed to an absurd degree, this makes SSGod Goku retroactively even more inferior to even Rageta, never mind Beerus.Also, there are several named and unnamed characters already stronger than Beerus. I think Vegetto temporarily existing and being stronger than him isn't wanking too much.

I doubt it was nerf. It's more the case that was never as powerful as some fans kept harping on since Vegetto beat up Super Buu after he absorbed several people. And Rageta didn't do anything to Beerus and got slapped out of Super Saiyan form, while Super Saiyan God Goku took several hits and actually smacked Beerus. Never once did Beerus say he needed 10% to beat Vegeta, just that he used 10%.

It is wanking since fans thought Vegetto was ultimate based on one fight with an opponent who as inferior to him, also led by the fact that Buu after absorbing Gohan was wank to high heaven.

[ekrolo2]

I doubt it was nerf. It's more the case that was never as powerful as some fans kept harping on since Vegetto beat up Super Buu after he absorbed several people. And Rageta didn't do anything to Beerus and got slapped out of Super Saiyan form, while Super Saiyan God Goku took several hits and actually smacked Beerus. Never once did Beerus say he needed 10% to beat Vegeta, just that he used 10%.

It is wanking since fans thought Vegetto was ultimate based on one fight with an opponent who as inferior to him, also led by the fact that Buu after absorbing Gohan was wank to high heaven.

Considering the fact Goku and Vegeta are far inferior to Gotenks, Gohan, Super Boo and Boo's various absorption forms, I'd say Vegetto being a hefty increase isn't wanking. Sure, putting him above Bootenks IS wanking that needs to fuck off back to Z anime hell, but upgrading Goku & Vegeta's Base states from being inferior to Namek Freeza to probably SS3 Goku & SS Gotenks tier, at least, requires a substantial increase.

Also, the fact Beerus used 10% to take on Vegeta implies his rage boost put him in the lower percentile of Beerus' power, there would be absolutely no reason at all for Beerus to use that much if Vegeta wasn't worth it. He's, at least, 5% of Beerus' power and as high as 7-8%. If SSGod Goku was higher, about 20%, then how the fuck does this work at all with Kaio-ken, SSBlue being introduced, Goku & Vegeta getting stronger and then Vegetto + Blue.

All of these factors can only work if you seriously nerf God Goku or boost Beerus up to being millions upon millions of times stronger than SSGod, thus defeating the entire point of BoG since that was supposed to be the enemy to give Beerus a good, hard fight. Something that increasingly becomes less and less likely with each passing arc.

[HeroR]

Considering the fact Goku and Vegeta are far inferior to Gotenks, Gohan, Super Boo and Boo's various absorption forms, I'd say Vegetto being a hefty increase isn't wanking. Sure, putting him above Bootenks IS wanking that needs to fuck off back to Z anime hell, but upgrading Goku & Vegeta's Base states from being inferior to Namek Freeza to probably SS3 Goku & SS Gotenks tier, at least, requires a substantial increase.

Also, the fact Beerus used 10% to take on Vegeta implies his rage boost put him in the lower percentile of Beerus' power, there would be absolutely no reason at all for Beerus to use that much if Vegeta wasn't worth it. He's, at least, 5% of Beerus' power and as high as 7-8%. If SSGod Goku was higher, about 20%, then how the fuck does this work at all with Kaio-ken, SSBlue being introduced, Goku & Vegeta getting stronger and then Vegetto + Blue.

All of these factors can only work if you seriously nerf God Goku or boost Beerus up to being millions upon millions of times stronger than SSGod, thus defeating the entire point of BoG since that was supposed to be the enemy to give Beerus a good, hard fight. Something that increasingly becomes less and less likely with each passing arc.

Let me stop you there. Goku and Vegeta may have been inferior to Gotenks, Gohan, Super Boo, but it was never said it was a big power gap, especially since Vegeta's biggest failing was not having Super Saiyan 3. We have seen several times that it doesn't take a big number to mean the different between evenly match, to curb stomp. And Freeza used 50% of his power to smash Goku when Goku was a mere 3 million to Freeza's 120 million. He could have killed Goku with 15% and gotten almost the same results.

Finally, the point of Battle of Gods was to show Goku that as powerful as he was, there were still people out there much better than him, and there were people better than Beerus. Which is basically the theme of Dragon Ball. Beerus was the one looking for a good challenged and even in the movie, he admitted that Super Saiyan God Goku wasn't much a challenged.

[apex_pretador]

Beerus can destroy universe.

Godku, Vegeta, Vegetto, zamasu, black, all combined were unable to cause any direct threat to even earth (plot armor but still) and DEFINITELY universe.

[ekrolo2]

Let me stop you there. Goku and Vegeta may have been inferior to Gotenks, Gohan, Super Boo, but it was never said it was a big power gap, especially since Vegeta's biggest failing was not having Super Saiyan 3. We have seen several times that it doesn't take a big number to mean the different between evenly match, to curb stomp. And Freeza used 50% of his power to smash Goku when Goku was a mere 3 million to Freeza's 120 million. He could have killed Goku with 15% and gotten almost the same results.

Finally, the point of Battle of Gods was to show Goku that as powerful as he was, there were still people out there much better than him, and there were people better than Beerus. Which is basically the theme of Dragon Ball. Beerus was the one looking for a good challenged and even in the movie, he admitted that Super Saiyan God Goku wasn't much a challenged.

The whole 150 & 120 million thing is a Daizenshuu only number, the actual fight implies that Goku & Freeza are either not operating at maximum capacity (Goku even comments on how Freeza didn't go all out since his damaged body couldn't take it) or they're closer in strength with Freeza's stamina bringing him down. As for Freeza not killing Goku, as shown by every battle up until that point, Freeza relishes in toying with his enemies. Meaning that even if he's letting them feel his current strength level, he's intentionally holding back to prolong their terror. Third Form Freeza could've just blown Piccolo's head off but he doesn't to torture him for a long time by shredding his body.

SS Gotenks was also being setup as stronger than SS3 Goku without even going into the ROSAT. Once he went in there, Piccolo noticed a great increase of power there which, coupled with SS2 and SS3, creates a pretty wide gap between Gotenks at his best, and by extension Gohan and the various forms of Super Boo, against Goku & Vegeta. Vegetto has to give them a hefty boost to be able to take guys of this tier on.

We also know that all it takes is a tiny gap in power for one character to stomp another when all bets are off and fucking around is done, just look at how insignificant of a difference there is between Vegeta & Zarbon and Dodoria but Vegeta still stomped them because he was 100% committed to killing them no bullshiting allowed.

In the movie, Goku makes him use 70% of his power, the first guy to do that in a long time as commented on by Whis. I'd say that's a fairly impressive feat for Goku's first battle as a SSGod and the F film, before Toriyama decided to make Beerus billions of times stronger, stated that if Goku & Vegeta teamed up, they'd defeat Beerus, once again reinforcing the pre-Super idea of Goku & Vegeta closing the gap between themselves and Beerus fairly quickly.

Super's version is a mess, you can't make SSGod Goku worth any significant amount of Beerus' strength since Kaio-ken and especially Vegetto's fusion boost + Blue would make Beerus look weaker. But at the same time, the whole 10% comment about Rageta implies that everyone we've seen up until this point is to varying degrees weaker than a pissed off Vegeta. This doesn't work, at all, on any level.

[Helios518]

Beerus can destroy universe.

Godku, Vegeta, Vegetto, zamasu, black, all combined were unable to cause any direct threat to even earth (plot armor but still) and DEFINITELY universe.

Not damaging the planet you're on is not a good argument for a power difference.

[HeroR]

Beerus can destroy universe.

Godku, Vegeta, Vegetto, zamasu, black, all combined were unable to cause any direct threat to even earth (plot armor but still) and DEFINITELY universe.

Super Saiyan God Goku nearly destroyed the universe by accidentally along with Beerus. And using the Earth lack of damage is really dumb since in that case, Freeza is the most powerful character next to Beerus.

[HeroR]

Let me stop you there. Goku and Vegeta may have been inferior to Gotenks, Gohan, Super Boo, but it was never said it was a big power gap, especially since Vegeta's biggest failing was not having Super Saiyan 3. We have seen several times that it doesn't take a big number to mean the different between evenly match, to curb stomp. And Freeza used 50% of his power to smash Goku when Goku was a mere 3 million to Freeza's 120 million. He could have killed Goku with 15% and gotten almost the same results.

Finally, the point of Battle of Gods was to show Goku that as powerful as he was, there were still people out there much better than him, and there were people better than Beerus. Which is basically the theme of Dragon Ball. Beerus was the one looking for a good challenged and even in the movie, he admitted that Super Saiyan God Goku wasn't much a challenged.

The whole 150 & 120 million thing is a Daizenshuu only number, the actual fight implies that Goku & Freeza are either not operating at maximum capacity (Goku even comments on how Freeza didn't go all out since his damaged body couldn't take it) or they're closer in strength with Freeza's stamina bringing him down. As for Freeza not killing Goku, as shown by every battle up until that point, Freeza relishes in toying with his enemies. Meaning that even if he's letting them feel his current strength level, he's intentionally holding back to prolong their terror. Third Form Freeza could've just blown Piccolo's head off but he doesn't to torture him for a long time by shredding his body.

SS Gotenks was also being setup as stronger than SS3 Goku without even going into the ROSAT. Once he went in there, Piccolo noticed a great increase of power there which, coupled with SS2 and SS3, creates a pretty wide gap between Gotenks at his best, and by extension Gohan and the various forms of Super Boo, against Goku & Vegeta. Vegetto has to give them a hefty boost to be able to take guys of this tier on.

We also know that all it takes is a tiny gap in power for one character to stomp another when all bets are off and fucking around is done, just look at how insignificant of a difference there is between Vegeta & Zarbon and Dodoria but Vegeta still stomped them because he was 100% committed to killing them no bullshiting allowed.

In the movie, Goku makes him use 70% of his power, the first guy to do that in a long time as commented on by Whis. I'd say that's a fairly impressive feat for Goku's first battle as a SSGod and the F film, before Toriyama decided to make Beerus billions of times stronger, stated that if Goku & Vegeta teamed up, they'd defeat Beerus, once again reinforcing the pre-Super idea of Goku & Vegeta closing the gap between themselves and Beerus fairly quickly.

Super's version is a mess, you can't make SSGod Goku worth any significant amount of Beerus' strength since Kaio-ken and especially Vegetto's fusion boost + Blue would make Beerus look weaker. But at the same time, the whole 10% comment about Rageta implies that everyone we've seen up until this point is to varying degrees weaker than a pissed off Vegeta. This doesn't work, at all, on any level.

Even if we ignore the Daizenshuu, Freeza claimed he was curb stomping Goku with only a third of his power, so 50% was overkill. He also blocked a 20x Kaioken with his hand and only got some burn marks. You are also ignoring that Goku said that about full power Freeza. So Freeza didn't need to use half of his power to beat up Goku, and Beerus didn't need 10% to beat up Vegeta since Vegeta didn't hurt Beerus in Super.

Setup to be stronger, doesn't mean vastly stronger. The vast part being part of the fandom head canon for over twenty years.

Beerus called Goku no challenged after everything was said and done. He probably could have beating Goku with less than 70% since Goku never had the advantage once during the battle. And Whis said they may have a chance against Beerus, not that they would actually win. Big different.

You're the one who thinks that Beerus needed 10% to beat up Vegeta when he was raging, when nothing of the sort was seen since Vegeta performed worse in Super compared to his movie counterpart who made Beerus bleed.

[TheUltimateNinja]

There's some unverified spoilers about Vegetto having a weakness that did not exist in the original fusion, so maybe that's why he ends up weaker than Beerus.

[HeroR]

It should also be noted that the magazine specifically says that Merged Zamasu is the strongest character in the series, but weaker than Beerus. How much is not said. As far as we know, it could be the different between a 9.5 to 10. It also seems to hint that Vegetto is inferior to Merged Zamasu.