Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Zamasu55]

I must say, it is amusing watching you all try to make sense of this lol.

It makes no sense indeed.

[ekrolo2]

To be clear, Present Zamasu fought Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

I know, but the dialogue called it Super Saiyan so I'm not entirely sure what Toei intended during that scene. I don't think it particularly matters either way.

They always called it as just ''Super Saiyan''. The only person I can recall calling it ''Super Saiyan 2'' is the person who named it himself - Goku.

Wasn't this well before the term Super Saiyan 2 was even coined? Gohan also calls it his "new SUPER-Super Saiyan form!" just before activating it for Kibito.

[GodVegetto91]

To answer the question one of you had..

Base Vegito>SSJB Goku & Vegeta aswell as Trunks. (PRE Genki Dama Asspull ofcourse)

So Base Vegito>any non fused character.

[Zamasu55]

To answer the question one of you had..

Base Vegito>SSJB Goku & Vegeta aswell as Trunks. (PRE Genki Dama Asspull ofcourse)

So Base Vegito>any non fused character.

Based on what?

[Helios518]

To answer the question one of you had..

Base Vegito>SSJB Goku & Vegeta aswell as Trunks. (PRE Genki Dama Asspull ofcourse)

So Base Vegito>any non fused character.

How do you jump to that conclusion?

[Khin]

Wasn't this well before the term Super Saiyan 2 was even coined? Gohan also calls it his "new SUPER-Super Saiyan form!" just before activating it for Kibito.

Yes, but prior to Goku naming it Super Saiyan 2, it was called a ''Super Saiyan that surpasses the Super Saiyan'' or something like that. Here, Gohan just called the form as simply ''Super Saiyan'' - which continued later on with Kibito, Kaioshin, Black, and Whis. Only guy who called it Super Saiyan 2 was Goku.

[MagmonKai]

I have a question. I see a lot of people saying lets throw out the "6, 10, 15" comment that Toriyama made 3 years ago regarding power levels so that they can make sure Goku and Vegeta stay lower than Beerus. So, why do we still have Whis at least 50% stronger than Beerus? If we throw out one portion we should just throw out all of it. Make it so that Whis is only 1% stronger than Beerus or maybe they are actually equals... Beerus isn't exactly afraid of Whis and he's threaten to erase him before. Just because he caught Beerus by surprise doesn't mean he's leagues stronger, if they are the same level or slightly above...I mean Goku could one-shot a powered down Vegeta. I still see a lot of comparisons that have Whis way above Beerus, but if everything's changed it's also a good bet that Beerus could be a 14 and Whis is 15. Goku and Vegeta are still 7-8 range. What are you guys thoughts on this?

[Bullza]

Ep 57 - He drops his guard all the time, which has been stated by Trunks and Goku all the time.

I think you're putting too much emphasis on that. It's quite clear when he lets his guard down, like a couple episodes ago when Black ripped the sky and Zamasu is looking up at it giving some speech and Goku just punches him in the face. Against Trunks his guard was up, he was dodging all of Trunks sword attacks until he finally ran him through, it's not as though he just randomly let his guard down in the middle of Trunks swings, he was just caught and he would have died if he wasn't immortal.

Ep 61 - Raged boost surpassed Black until he power up. So this isn't the same Goku from Ep 57.

Yeah it was the powered up Goku but after he snapped he blitzed past Zamasu without him even noticing. Black was at least able to defend himself and fight back.

Ep 62 - The only thing that proves is that Super Trunks with a rage boost is stronger than Zamasu, who was only little weaker than Black at the time.

It shows that Zamasu is much weaker than Black and Zamasu really can't stand up to this level which almost all of the others were at except for him.

Ep 63 - He was still Super Trunks. I am not sure you keep saying he wasn't. If he was only as Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku would have blocked all his attacks with his fingers.

Watching the fight all the way through from when it started he was completely different fighting Black to when he fought Zamasu. For Black the spiky hair was there and the blue aura was there for when he did the Galick Gun. Against Zamasu straight afterwards, Trunks said he'd used up most of his stamina and only had one attack left in him that's probably why he went out of the Super Trunks form because his hair went back to what it was before he transformed and there was no blue aura.

Between this and Episode 57 it appears as though Trunks' ordinary form is enough to fight against Zamasu but against Black he needs the Super Trunks form.

Ep 64 - Black was more than certain that Zamasu would kill Future Trunks. So Black thought that Zamasu was within the same league of Trunks' super form.

But then Trunks also commented that he could deal with Zamasu if it were just him alone.

Again, if he was only as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, Goku should have finger blocked him at his max power. And power and speed tend to go hand-and-hand unless stated otherwise.

Not necessarily because we don't know how strong SSJ2 Trunks after training is in comparison to Goku. If Zamasu is about as strong as SSJ3 Goku then we don't know how much inferior that is, it might not be inferior enough to just finger block. When Trunks fought Vegeta even though he was much weaker he wasn't particularly slower at all, Trunks only made a mention of Vegeta's strength.

You could probably count the amount of hits that Zamasu gets in on everyone on just your two hands and he never really does any worthwhile damage with any of them. He delivers the odd glancing blow when he hits Goku in mid air after Black hits him first and hits Vegeta when he's focused on Black. He's not weak but I wouldn't put him in the same crop of characters as any of the Saiyans. At best he's probably as strong as Hit without the timeskip but otherwise if that Zamasu without immortality fought the ordinary post training SSJ2 Trunks he'd lose.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I have a question. I see a lot of people saying lets throw out the "6, 10, 15" comment that Toriyama made 3 years ago regarding power levels so that they can make sure Goku and Vegeta stay lower than Beerus. So, why do we still have Whis at least 50% stronger than Beerus? If we throw out one portion we should just throw out all of it. Make it so that Whis is only 1% stronger than Beerus or maybe they are actually equals... Beerus isn't exactly afraid of Whis and he's threaten to erase him before. Just because he caught Beerus by surprise doesn't mean he's leagues stronger, if they are the same level or slightly above...I mean Goku could one-shot a powered down Vegeta. I still see a lot of comparisons that have Whis way above Beerus, but if everything's changed it's also a good bet that Beerus could be a 14 and Whis is 15. Goku and Vegeta are still 7-8 range. What are you guys thoughts on this?

I think Beerus is a joke to Whis and the gap between them is much larger than 6-10-15 would suggest.

[ekrolo2]

Since we're going to see Black fight the main cast of the Future Trunks arc for the manga, I've decided to make a quasi-hypothetical list for the fight, taking into account that Black's SSRose gives him an x50 boost.

Goku - 28 (Base)
- 1,400 (Super Saiyan)
- 2,800 (Super Saiyan 2)
- 11,200 (Super Saiyan 3)
-2,800,000 (Super Saiyan God, 2.8 on the God Scale, x100,00 Base)
-5,600,000 (Super Saiyan Blue, 5.6 on the God Scale, x2 SSGod)

Vegeta - 27,8 (Base)
- 13,90 (Super Saiyan)
- 27,80 (Super Saiyan 2)
- 5,560,00 (Super Saiyan Blue)

Future Trunks - 28.2 mil (Base)
- 14,10 bill (Super Saiyan)
- 28,20 bill (Super Saiyan 2)
- 9,870 bill (Full-Power Super Saiyan 2, x3.5 SS2)

Goku Black - 130,000 (Base)
- 6,500,000 (SSRose, x50 Base)

[GodVegetto91]

To answer the question one of you had..

Base Vegito>SSJB Goku & Vegeta aswell as Trunks. (PRE Genki Dama Asspull ofcourse)

So Base Vegito>any non fused character.

How do you jump to that conclusion?

Come on guys.... Really!? Fusion>Non Fusion. Their SSJ Blue Forms only provide a small power increase over their Base Forms, as proven all throughout of Super.
This should be a no brainer. Base Vegetto is a Potara Fused Powerhouse. And no mere individual ants like Goku and Vegeta can touch that in their Super Saiyan forms. It's based on everything that you can no.
reason and logic.

[Marlowe89]

But then Trunks also commented that he could deal with Zamasu if it were just him alone.

Trunks wasn't somehow excluding his Super form when he said that though, just as Black's Super Saiyan Rose form isn't magically excluded whenever Black is said to be superior to Future Zamasu. If Trunks could deal with Zamasu without his Super form, he wouldn't have instantly transformed into it the moment Zamasu came to the scene in that very same episode. While you're correct that Future Zamasu doesn't stand up to the other Saiyans, assuming that their strongest forms somehow aren't in the equation whenever this is established is employing all sorts of extra assumptions that aren't needed at all.

I really don't know how much more clear-cut it can get. Super Saiyan 2 Goku made quick work of Present Zamasu, Present Zamasu said Goku's strength was multiplied dozens of times over after transforming, Beerus said he was "child's play" or a "piece of cake" compared to that Goku (depending on your preferred subtitles) then in later episodes we see Future Zamasu fighting nearly on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku because he's able to keep up with him and even land some blows. On top of that, in the vast majority of instances where Zamasu is overpowered he's either implied to let his guard down or it's suggested that he was trying to accentuate his immortality to the Saiyans.

Future Zamasu was never one of the top players but it's obvious that there's a pretty significant gap between himself and Present Zamasu.

[GodVegetto91]

To answer the question one of you had..

Base Vegito>SSJB Goku & Vegeta aswell as Trunks. (PRE Genki Dama Asspull ofcourse)

So Base Vegito>any non fused character.

Based on what?

It's based on everything that you can know. The Potara multiplier is easily in the hundreds of times. (If not thousands) SSJ Blue provides no significant power increase if we look at the feats in Super. BASE Goku was giving Hit a tough fight, while earlier SSJ Blue Vegeta got decimated. (Just to name 1 already)

Super follows the anime(Kai) as noted from all the flashbacks.. And guess what Kai had.. BASE Vegito>Buuhan! Anyways, i can't believe i even have to explain it. This should be self-evident to an honest, rational person.

[Bullza]

I really don't know how much more clear-cut it can get. Super Saiyan 2 Goku made quick work of Present Zamasu, Present Zamasu said Goku's strength was multiplied dozens of times over after transforming, Beerus said he was "child's play" or a "piece of cake" compared to that Goku (depending on your preferred subtitles) then in later episodes we see Future Zamasu fighting nearly on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku because he's able to keep up with him and even land some blows. On top of that, in the vast majority of instances where Zamasu is overpowered he's either implied to let his guard down or it's suggested that he was trying to accentuate his immortality to the Saiyans.

The Present Zamasu said he was distracted though and he obviously was and could have done better so you can't place that much importance on that fight or what was said about it without knowing how he would have performed if they had fought again without him being distracted, for all we know he may have put up as decent of a fight as what the Future Zamasu did who wasn't distracted. It's not like Beerus would be that familiar with what he's capable of either because he'd never even met him until that episode.

He let his guard down a few times and he let himself get hit a few times. He did neither against Trunks that first time though, his guard was up, he was dodging the sword and when he thrust it at him he was surprised and he was stabbed. Then it turned out he was immortal but he didn't let himself get stabbed just like how afterward he didn't let his attack get stopped by Trunks, let himself get punched several times by Trunks or let his own attack be dodged by Trunks.

[Helios518]

To answer the question one of you had..

Base Vegito>SSJB Goku & Vegeta aswell as Trunks. (PRE Genki Dama Asspull ofcourse)

So Base Vegito>any non fused character.

Based on what?

It's based on everything that you can know. The Potara multiplier is easily in the hundreds of times. (If not thousands) SSJ Blue provides no significant power increase if we look at the feats in Super. BASE Goku was giving Hit a tough fight, while earlier SSJ Blue Vegeta got decimated. (Just to name 1 already)

Super follows the anime(Kai) as noted from all the flashbacks.. And guess what Kai had.. BASE Vegito>Buuhan! Anyways, i can't believe i even have to explain it. This should be self-evident to an honest, rational person.

You and I will have to disagree on this as I feel differently about the subject.

[GodVegetto91]

Based on what?

It's based on everything that you can know. The Potara multiplier is easily in the hundreds of times. (If not thousands) SSJ Blue provides no significant power increase if we look at the feats in Super. BASE Goku was giving Hit a tough fight, while earlier SSJ Blue Vegeta got decimated. (Just to name 1 already)

Super follows the anime(Kai) as noted from all the flashbacks.. And guess what Kai had.. BASE Vegito>Buuhan! Anyways, i can't believe i even have to explain it. This should be self-evident to an honest, rational person.

You and I will have to disagree on this as I feel differently about the subject.

Care to elaborate on that?

[Marlowe89]

The Present Zamasu said he was distracted though and he obviously was and could have done better so you can't place that much importance on that fight or what was said about it without knowing how he would have performed if they had fought again without him being distracted, for all we know he may have put up as decent of a fight as what the Future Zamasu did who wasn't distracted. It's not like Beerus would be that familiar with what he's capable of either because he'd never even met him until that episode.

Whether Zamasu was distracted and could maybe have performed a little better doesn't really change Beerus' statement or the anime's script. You're suggesting that viewers should ignore actual dialogue in the show, which again is just a really overly complicated way of trying to get around what Toei was clearly portraying. In fact, Goku's performance against Zamasu was one of the biggest things to convince Zamasu that he needed Goku's power to carry out his plans to begin with.

Mind athletics just aren't necessary for this. Beerus was very clear and unambiguous about what he said and there's no reason to just start calling it an outlier that needs to be ignored by the target audience.

He let his guard down a few times and he let himself get hit a few times. He did neither against Trunks that first time though, his guard was up, he was dodging the sword and when he thrust it at him he was surprised and he was stabbed. Then it turned out he was immortal but he didn't let himself get stabbed just like how afterward he didn't let his attack get stopped by Trunks, let himself get punched several times by Trunks or let his own attack be dodged by Trunks.

The fact that there are instances where we know Zamasu let his guard down and yet he still expressed surprise as well as clumsiness during those exact same situations should tell you that his initial skirmish against Trunks wasn't necessarily an exception to his stated weakness. Future Zamasu isn't weak, he's just not a disciplined fighter anymore because of his immortality. That's all there is to it.

[HeroR]

The Present Zamasu said he was distracted though and he obviously was and could have done better so you can't place that much importance on that fight or what was said about it without knowing how he would have performed if they had fought again without him being distracted, for all we know he may have put up as decent of a fight as what the Future Zamasu did who wasn't distracted. It's not like Beerus would be that familiar with what he's capable of either because he'd never even met him until that episode.

Whether Zamasu was distracted and could maybe have performed a little better doesn't really change Beerus' statement or the anime's script. You're suggesting that viewers should ignore actual dialogue in the show, which again is just a really overly complicated way of trying to get around what Toei was clearly portraying. In fact, Goku's performance against Zamasu was one of the biggest things to convince Zamasu that he needed Goku's power to carry out his plans to begin with.

Mind athletics just aren't necessary for this. Beerus was very clear and unambiguous about what he said and there's no reason to just start calling it an outlier that needs to be ignored by the target audience.

He let his guard down a few times and he let himself get hit a few times. He did neither against Trunks that first time though, his guard was up, he was dodging the sword and when he thrust it at him he was surprised and he was stabbed. Then it turned out he was immortal but he didn't let himself get stabbed just like how afterward he didn't let his attack get stopped by Trunks, let himself get punched several times by Trunks or let his own attack be dodged by Trunks.

The fact that there are instances where we know Zamasu let his guard down and yet he still expressed surprise as well as clumsiness during those exact same situations should tell you that his initial skirmish against Trunks wasn't necessarily an exception to his stated weakness. Future Zamasu isn't weak, he's just not a disciplined fighter anymore because of his immortality. Really, that's all there is to it.

Which was the primary reason Black didn't want immortality. He knew the moment he got it he would become like Future Zamasu. Strong, but careless. Immortality became Future Zamasu's crutched and he got soft despite being powerful.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Now that the arc is almost over, Future Trunks is officially the King of the BS Power-ups:

• After over 10 years of training, came close to Post-SSG/Whis' training/RoSaT Goku's level, and achieved Super Saiyan 2.
• After training with Vegeta for a day, and/or after getting angry, he came close to SSB level in his SS2 form.
• After getting even more angry, he achieved a new transformation that brought him to SSB level.
• With his power of hope, he took the energy from all over the planet, and managed to surpass Merged Zamasu.

I'm really curious how the manga will treat him up until the end.

[Helios518]

You and I will have to disagree on this as I feel differently about the subject.

Care to elaborate on that?

Kai was supposed to be an edit of DBZ to look cleaner and be closer to the manga otherwise they could've just reran DBZ again. The Kai Boo Arc left large amounts of filler in it because Toei did it themselves instead of Q-TEC (like they did for Saiyan - Cell saga) but that goes against the original purpose for the new series. Which is why I believe that even if Super Anime follows Kai it largely forgets the filler unless directly referenced/shown. That's my opinion on this.