"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

Because like Future Zamasu said " This ( big beating and healing) will take you one step closer to your ultimate form, right?”"

How does he know about SSRose, anyway?

[OLKv3]

Because like Future Zamasu said " This ( big beating and healing) will take you one step closer to your ultimate form, right?”"

How does he know about SSRose, anyway?

Black most likely told him about it. He knows about SSB

[TheUltimateNinja]

I'm really disappointed by the direction the manga has taken these last few chapters. I suppose I shouldn't have expected much from the guy who wrote AF.

[Duo]

Because like Future Zamasu said " This ( big beating and healing) will take you one step closer to your ultimate form, right?”"

How does he know about SSRose, anyway?

They're probably assuming he'll be able to go Blue.

I'm really disappointed by the direction the manga has taken these last few chapters. I suppose I shouldn't have expected much from the guy who wrote AF.

I don't know why you would be. It's a much more consistent and coherent version of events compared to the anime. Not sure what AF has to do with this since Toyotaro is following Toriyama's direction...

[TheUltimateNinja]

I'm really disappointed by the direction the manga has taken these last few chapters. I suppose I shouldn't have expected much from the guy who wrote AF.

I don't know why you would be. It's a much more consistent and coherent version of events compared to the anime. Not sure what AF has to do with this since Toyotaro is following Toriyama's direction...

SSJ2 Vegeta was able to destroy SSJ2 Black easily, whereas Base Black is above SSJ3 Goku, and since SSJ = 10% of SSBlue, SSJ3 would be 80%, therefore Black is already SSBlue level in Base.

[HeroR]

Because like Future Zamasu said " This ( big beating and healing) will take you one step closer to your ultimate form, right?”"

How does he know about SSRose, anyway?

They're probably assuming he'll be able to go Blue.

I'm really disappointed by the direction the manga has taken these last few chapters. I suppose I shouldn't have expected much from the guy who wrote AF.

I don't know why you would be. It's a much more consistent and coherent version of events compared to the anime. Not sure what AF has to do with this since Toyotaro is following Toriyama's direction...

It really isn't more consistent and coherent as it's more of an abridge version of events. Things happen more straight forward and simple, which makes sense since this is a monthly publication, so it best to boil the story down to its basic parts.

Power-scaling wise, I disagree:

First, having Goku used Super Saiyan God as a normal transformation goes against Toriyama's statements and the movies he wrote that Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God and doesn't need it anymore.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan having a 90% tanked in power just by transforming twice in the row is really stupid and to me is the most annoying thing the manga has done.

Trunks having a mutated Super Saiyan 2 sounds good on paper, but it raises the question why a fighting genius like Goku who created Master Super Saiyan never achieved this and instead relied on the energy sucking Super Saiyan 3. Especially since Trunks just trained for the form and he didn't do anything uniquely special. What makes this more baffling is that the manga could have just giving Trunks Super Saiyan 3 and just avoided the need to explain a mutated Super Saiyan 2.

Black's base form was hinted to be around Super Saiyan God Goku's level, since Goku became a Super Saiyan God to knock out Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, who power rivaled Super Saiyan 3 Goku. So, even if we assumed that Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 is a super mutated version of Trunks that was created when Beerus slapped Bulma and is as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku, that should only put him on par with base form Black. Any form of Super Saiyan for Black should be stronger than Vegeta outside Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. The only way to explain this is if Vegeta when training Trunks got a huge increase in power or the different between his mutated Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is really small.

[LowRyder2005]

The manga was pretty consistent up to this point. Now we basically have...

SS2 Trunks ~ SS3 Goku < Base Black < SS2 Black < SS2 Vegeta < SS Blue Vegeta

Kind of a big mess, ROSAT or not. I hope there's something in the translation to clarify things. I don't understand why they avoided using Blue from the start.

[Abra kadabra]

Black has to be allowing himself to get beat. It's not even a brief exchange. It's a whole damn chapter. A non-enraged ssj2 Vegeta is wrecking him. Despite what they said, sandbagging is the only thing that makes sense

[LowRyder2005]

Yeah, possibly. Hope they make it clearer the next chapter.

[TheMikado]

The manga was pretty consistent up to this point. Now we basically have...

SS2 Trunks ~ SS3 Goku < Base Black < SS2 Black < SS2 Vegeta < SS Blue Vegeta

Kind of a big mess, ROSAT or not. I hope there's something in the translation to clarify things. I don't understand why they avoided using Blue from the start.

The big hints are Trunks repeatedly saying something's not right and that Black should/is even more powerful now. Basically it's super weird because Trunks, in universe, is saying exactly what we all are thinking. That SSJ2 Vegeta shouldn't be able to really hurt Black like that. Trunks ileven warns Goku that Black is stronger now and to finish his quick. I would say the thing that doesn't look right is the level of beating Black is taking unless he's playing possum hard. My guess is Toriyamas outline called for Black to allow himself to be beaten to obtain their power and this is Toyotaros version of it. If it is I think he dropped the ball on conveying that on Blacks side and relying solely on Trunks to raise suspicions.

[TheUltimateNinja]

He needed Zamasu to come save his life, though, who sandbags so hard that they legitimately get beaten?

[SansrivaaL]

He needed Zamasu to come save his life, though, who sandbags so hard that they legitimately get beaten?

The guy was probably expecting Vegeta's SSJ2 to be his ultimate form seeing as he didnt know which era the Goku and Vegeta that Trunks brought was from (shit probably surprised him after seeing that Vegeta knew SSJB ). He doesnt have access to SSJR yet so despite everything that happened he needed to get his ass handed to him to gain a powerup.

Bottom line is I think Toyotarou knows what he's doing, Trunks' question is basically our question, "Black should be more powerful so what the heck is going on?" kind of thing.

[HeroR]

He needed Zamasu to come save his life, though, who sandbags so hard that they legitimately get beaten?

I could see Anime Black doing it because he actually liked getting hurt and when Vegeta really did beat the crap out of him, he remained relatively calm about it and used it as a learning experience.

Although, Manga Black seems more like a Zarbon vs. Vegeta situation. Vegeta got stronger after Zarbon beat the shit out of him and he was very happy with the results, but Vegeta didn't go in and fight Zarbon expecting to get his shit kicked in, heal, and get stronger.

[TheMikado]

He needed Zamasu to come save his life, though, who sandbags so hard that they legitimately get beaten?

The guy was probably expecting Vegeta's SSJ2 to be his ultimate form seeing as he didnt know which era the Goku and Vegeta that Trunks brought was from (shit probably surprised him after seeing that Vegeta knew SSJB ). He doesnt have access to SSJR yet so despite everything that happened he needed to get his ass handed to him to gain a powerup.

Bottom line is I think Toyotarou knows what he's doing, Trunks' question is basically our question, "Black should be more powerful so what the heck is going on?" kind of thing.

Pretty much what I'm saying. Trunks acknowledging in universe that the power scaling doesn't make sense seems to imply something else is going on. But like I said I do think Toyotaro could have done a better job to convey and foreshadow that.

[SansrivaaL]

He needed Zamasu to come save his life, though, who sandbags so hard that they legitimately get beaten?

The guy was probably expecting Vegeta's SSJ2 to be his ultimate form seeing as he didnt know which era the Goku and Vegeta that Trunks brought was from (shit probably surprised him after seeing that Vegeta knew SSJB ). He doesnt have access to SSJR yet so despite everything that happened he needed to get his ass handed to him to gain a powerup.

Bottom line is I think Toyotarou knows what he's doing, Trunks' question is basically our question, "Black should be more powerful so what the heck is going on?" kind of thing.

Pretty much what I'm saying. Trunks acknowledging in universe that the power scaling doesn't make sense seems to imply something else is going on. But like I said I do think Toyotaro could have done a better job to convey and foreshadow that.

Heck its better than nothing, at least it wasnt as confusing as we thought before the translation came out, I thought Toyotarou fcked up.

[HeroR]

Heck its better than nothing, at least it wasnt as confusing as we thought before the translation came out, I thought Toyotarou fcked up.

Even so, Black should have taking the beating more gracefully if he was planning this or wanted this, which he didn't seem to be the case since he wanted to know what era Vegeta came from. I mean, when Vegeta overpowered Black in the anime, he was more calm about it and he didn't have any plans of letting Vegeta smack him around.

[TheMikado]

Heck its better than nothing, at least it wasnt as confusing as we thought before the translation came out, I thought Toyotarou fcked up.

Even so, Black should have taking the beating more gracefully if he was planning this or wanted this, which he didn't seem to be the case since he wanted to know what era Vegeta came from. I mean, when Vegeta overpowered Black in the anime, he was more calm about it and he didn't have any plans of letting Vegeta smack him around.

I think in terms of him putting it together narratively and using more subtle queues Toyotaro did a poor job and I hope his work isn't suffering if he's doing work on the future arc... but anyway I think the reaction from Black came like this.

1) What are you doing here, you guys should be dead.
2) which Vegeta are you? If he's Cell level he's pretty much useless.
3)You're way stronger than you should be, I was hoping to obtain your power but I underestimated you and you almost killed me. No version of Vegeta I've seen should be this strong.

[Doctor.]

The manga was pretty consistent up to this point. Now we basically have...

SS2 Trunks ~ SS3 Goku < Base Black < SS2 Black < SS2 Vegeta < SS Blue Vegeta

Kind of a big mess, ROSAT or not. I hope there's something in the translation to clarify things. I don't understand why they avoided using Blue from the start.

The big hints are Trunks repeatedly saying something's not right and that Black should/is even more powerful now. Basically it's super weird because Trunks, in universe, is saying exactly what we all are thinking. That SSJ2 Vegeta shouldn't be able to really hurt Black like that. Trunks ileven warns Goku that Black is stronger now and to finish his quick. I would say the thing that doesn't look right is the level of beating Black is taking unless he's playing possum hard. My guess is Toriyamas outline called for Black to allow himself to be beaten to obtain their power and this is Toyotaros version of it. If it is I think he dropped the ball on conveying that on Blacks side and relying solely on Trunks to raise suspicions.

If Black is stronger now, it makes even LESS sense that Vegeta would be able to beat him. Vegeta even says "it's no surprise Trunks wasn't able to handle you" implying that, yes, Black was stronger than Trunks at that point. The powerscalling is simply fucked, there's no way around it.

I think Toriyama's outline merely says "Vegeta fights Black, is winning, Black becomes more powerful and gains the upperhand" and the anime went with that scythe nonsense whilst Toyotaro did this.

[SansrivaaL]

Heck its better than nothing, at least it wasnt as confusing as we thought before the translation came out, I thought Toyotarou fcked up.

Even so, Black should have taking the beating more gracefully if he was planning this or wanted this, which he didn't seem to be the case since he wanted to know what era Vegeta came from. I mean, when Vegeta overpowered Black in the anime, he was more calm about it and he didn't have any plans of letting Vegeta smack him around.

Cause Black in the anime was... more powerful, too powerful tbh, his zenkai's kicks in the moment he gets beat up, while his manga ver seems to take a while before powerups kicks in.

[TheMikado]

The manga was pretty consistent up to this point. Now we basically have...

SS2 Trunks ~ SS3 Goku < Base Black < SS2 Black < SS2 Vegeta < SS Blue Vegeta

Kind of a big mess, ROSAT or not. I hope there's something in the translation to clarify things. I don't understand why they avoided using Blue from the start.

The big hints are Trunks repeatedly saying something's not right and that Black should/is even more powerful now. Basically it's super weird because Trunks, in universe, is saying exactly what we all are thinking. That SSJ2 Vegeta shouldn't be able to really hurt Black like that. Trunks ileven warns Goku that Black is stronger now and to finish his quick. I would say the thing that doesn't look right is the level of beating Black is taking unless he's playing possum hard. My guess is Toriyamas outline called for Black to allow himself to be beaten to obtain their power and this is Toyotaros version of it. If it is I think he dropped the ball on conveying that on Blacks side and relying solely on Trunks to raise suspicions.

If Black is stronger now, it makes even LESS sense that Vegeta would be able to beat him. Vegeta even says "it's no surprise Trunks wasn't able to handle you" implying that, yes, Black was stronger than Trunks at that point. The powerscalling is simply fucked, there's no way around it.

I think Toriyama's outline merely says "Vegeta fights Black, is winning, Black becomes more powerful and gains the upperhand" and the anime went with that scythe nonsense whilst Toyotaro did this.

I agree that line was stupid but I just took it as Vegeta feeling like no one can defeat Goku but him. As far as the outline is concerned that's where I place the blame.

Between making Goku 10x stronger as a SSB than Vegeta to making Vegeta beat the crap out of Black, all these scenarios scream " just because" with no dots connecting why. My issue is these are little scenarios and we're building stories and plot around them rather that the plot dictating the scenarios. This is NOT the correct way to write a story and I'm blaming it on the outline.