Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GodVegetto91]

Actually what really doesn't make sense is, they nerfed Vegetto and while he was winning against Zamasu he still had to fight serious, while earlier, Goku BY HIMSELF was winning in a beam struggle. Goku, which is a PART of Vegetto! If Goku alone was already THAT strong, than Merged Zamasu would have been one-shot material for SSJ Blue Vegetto.

[SansrivaaL]

This episode was good poewr level wise.

Really? How so?

Super Trunks > SSGSS Vegetto > Merged Zamasu > Goku SSGSS > Merged Zamasu

No,

Super vegetto >> Zamasu (merged, full power) > Trunks (spirit bomb) > Merged Zamasu (weakened by vegetto) = Merged Zamasu (initial) = KaioKen goku > Goku (rage boost) = Vegeta = trunks (rage boost)

My only problem with this as the others is, why put Goku as an equal to Vegeta and Trunks when he pushed Zamasu's blast alone and that was Zamasu in rage pissed mode.

[apex_pretador]

My only problem with this as the others is, why put Goku as an equal to Vegeta and Trunks when he pushed Zamasu's blast alone and that was Zamasu in rage pissed mode.

Goku needed more effort to do it.

[SansrivaaL]

My only problem with this as the others is, why put Goku as an equal to Vegeta and Trunks when he pushed Zamasu's blast alone and that was Zamasu in rage pissed mode.

Goku needed more effort to do it.

Based on what? Vegeta was on his knee's after his attack, Goku was still standing and had the energy to attack.
If we're talking about effort, Zamasu put more of an effort on his attack against Goku, we see him making his blast bigger and like I said, he was pissed as hell because his attack earlier was pushed back, no way he wouldnt make it stronger than before.

[Bullza]

If Zamasu in the present was actually stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Goku, Goku's performance wouldn't have convinced him that he needed Goku's power.

He can still be stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Goku and still be convinced he needed Goku's power because he already saw him fight as a much more powerful Super Saiyan Blue on the Godtube.

There isn't going to be some kid in Japan that reacts to this scene and says "Wow, Beerus is definitely lying/wrong/misguided because Zamasu said he was distracted!"; that's just a bizarre expectation to have of the target audience and what Toei intended to convey to that audience through their script.

Well no but what Beerus was true, he was a piece of cake or child's play compared to Goku when he fought him, we saw that for ourselves. However we later found out he was distracted in that fight and could have done better. Had he fought him a second time without being distracted would he have beat him that time or not? Would he prove to be stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Goku but weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Goku like the Future Zamasu who wasn't distracted when he fought him.

Sure he would. SSB Goku attributed Zamasu's poor performance against him to Zamasu letting his guard down, not because he was significantly weaker. SSB Goku is obviously stronger than SS2 Trunks so there's no reason to assume this didn't apply to their skirmish as well.

That was against Goku though and you clearly saw when he let his guard down because he wasn't even looking at him. You can't just assume he let's his guard down each time he's hit. Trunks just got him, that's it, just because he dodged half a dozen swings doesn't mean the next one can't hit him. Characters have dodged punches and still ended up being hit by the one. That's true for real fighters as well.

Actually what really doesn't make sense is, they nerfed Vegetto and while he was winning against Zamasu he still had to fight serious, while earlier, Goku BY HIMSELF was winning in a beam struggle. Goku, which is a PART of Vegetto! If Goku alone was already THAT strong, than Merged Zamasu would have been one-shot material for SSJ Blue Vegetto.

Well Zamasu did power up afterwards (twice) so perhaps it was a significant boost in power he got or something.

My only problem with this as the others is, why put Goku as an equal to Vegeta and Trunks when he pushed Zamasu's blast alone and that was Zamasu in rage pissed mode.

Goku had to put out enough power that the force from it basically broke his arms or something. It's not something he'd likely do under most normal circumstances, infact I don't recall anything like that happening before. Perhaps Vegeta could have done the same if he really needed to.

[SansrivaaL]

My only problem with this as the others is, why put Goku as an equal to Vegeta and Trunks when he pushed Zamasu's blast alone and that was Zamasu in rage pissed mode.

Goku had to put out enough power that the force from it basically broke his arms or something. It's not something he'd likely do under most normal circumstances, infact I don't recall anything like that happening before. Perhaps Vegeta could have done the same if he really needed to.

While Goku did somehow broke his arms with that attack, Vegeta could barely stand while Goku was still floating and had the energy to attack.

[HeroR]

It was a stomp

It was nowhere near a stomp until the last third of the fight and even then Merged Zamasu tanked a Final Kamehameha that didn't destroy his body further.

[Marlowe89]

Well no but what Beerus was true, he was a piece of cake or child's play compared to Goku when he fought him, we saw that for ourselves. However we later found out he was distracted in that fight and could have done better.

I just rewatched Episode 59 and Crunchyroll's subs differ on that line: Zamasu simply says "Personally, I was unsatisfied with my performance last time" which doesn't necessarily carry the same meaning as being distracted or even that he could have done better in that match. That makes a lot more sense in context, as Zamasu didn't really show any indication of being distracted during their previous sparring match at all. Beerus was just making an assessment of Zamasu's strength in general.

You can't just assume he let's his guard down each time he's hit.

Actually, it's entirely reasonable to assume that. Goku's line was "Hasn't being immortal made you a bit too careless?" which, again, semantically refers to Zamasu's approach to fighting in general and not just one specific instance.

It's not that difficult to comprehend. Zamasu was repeatedly established to be careless and clumsy whenever he's engaged in combat, so it only logically follows that attacks that manage to connect have a valid possibility of resulting from that carelessness if Zamasu has already shown himself to be capable of easily avoiding the same kind of attack from the same character beforehand. It's a perfectly safe assumption because it's based on something established in regards to Zamasu's fighting style; he's not disciplined or focused because his immortality has made him that way, so he's not going to perform consistently against Trunks or anyone else.

[Bullza]

I just rewatched Episode 59 and Crunchyroll's subs differ on that line: Zamasu simply says "Personally, I was unsatisfied with my performance last time" which doesn't necessarily carry the same meaning as being distracted. That makes a lot more sense, as Zamasu didn't really show any indication of being distracted during their previous sparring match at all. Beerus was just making an assessment of Zamasu's strength in general.

That would still imply that he could have done better than what he did though. The distraction if any (and if it was said in the Japanese version) would be in the shock of Goku having so much power. He was doing alright at first until Goku pushed him back and then he was all shocked by how strong Goku was and asking how a human could be so strong in his mind so I could understand where the distraction would come into it.

Actually, it's entirely reasonable to assume that. Goku's line was "Hasn't being immortal made you a bit too careless?" which, again, semantically refers to Zamasu's approach to fighting in general and not just one specific instance.

He wasn't being careless when he was dodging all the strikes though so why would he be careless with one more? He wasn't immortal when Goku fought the present Zamasu and Goku still hit him. You almost make it sound like if he wasn't immortal nobody would ever be able to hit him and every time someone does hit him it's because he was careless.

Even if you ignore Trunks stabbing him, Trunks was still able to stop his attack with his and dodge his attack before pummeling him and kicking him back.

All Zamasu is able to do is keep up with that speed and do slight damage on the handful of hits he gets in which isn't saying much when SSJ2 Trunks before going back into the future was also able to keep up with that speed and he was weaker than Black on first appearance so there's nothing to suggest that Zamasu would be any strong than the weakest version of Black that we saw.

[Marlowe89]

That would still imply that he could have done better than what he did though.

That doesn't imply he was stronger though, it just implies that he was unsatisfied with his performance. You can give it your all in a fight and still be unsatisfied with your loss and the way you performed. Failing at something and then thinking "I could have done this part differently" doesn't mean you didn't still put the full effort in at the time of your attempt. Black even later called his loss "shameful" when he was flashing back to that same sparring match, so obviously it had an effect on him.

So there's nothing implying that Beerus' assessment of Zamasu's power doesn't hold up.

He wasn't being careless when he was dodging all the strikes though so why would he be careless with one more?

Because he's clumsy and undisciplined. I really don't know what else to tell you. He was dodging those strikes just fine and then one connected, but he's been repeatedly called a careless combatant so it's not like we should automatically assume that his sloppy fighting style has nothing to do with him getting hit by Trunks. Him being called a careless fighter already presupposes that he's not going to fight consistently well since he lacks the focus to do so.

That's it, really. There's no need to assume that Trunks was stronger than him in Super Saiyan 2, especially considering that Trunks automatically resorted to his Super form when he arrived in their most recent one-on-one.

[ZombieVito]

A few thoughts I would like to share about this episode.

- Since Merged Zamasu was said to be an imbalanced fusion I suppose it didn't receive a massive boost like Vegetto did in the Boo arc. What we know for sure is that he is stronegr than SSB + KKx10 Goku but since no comparison was made to Beerus I would say he is weaker than him. One question I have is if Merged Zamasu is immortal or not. Vegetto says he isn't but then he regenerates Trunks initial slashes.

- Vegetto was also never compared to Beerus so I would say he is still weaker. This wouldn't make sense since Vegetto's boost was massive, easily 100 times from Goku/Vegeta at minimum. What I theorize is that since Vegeta was way stronger than Goku this time the boost got diminished.

- I have no problem with what Trunks did. We know from past examples that when someone donates Ki to someone else is not a simple case of addition, the boost is way bigger. Trunks also doesn't even need to be stronger than Merged Zamasu (Who might be weaker) to beat him since he just evaded and attacked with superior speed.

He's partly immortal. He can still heal, but a strong enough attack can damaged him. Which is why Goku and Vegeta fused since individually they couldn't take Merged Zamasu. I also disagree with the boost. Merged Zamasu was able to throw down with Vegetto even if he was getting weaker. The thing is that although Black was stronger than Goku and Vegeta, Future Zamasu was noticeably weaker than those two. So Goku and Vegeta would come out to be the overall stronger fusion. Than and Merged Zamasu's body was falling apart.

And the absent of evidence is not evidence. Just because no comparison was made doesn't mean that Merged Zamasu is automatically weaker than Beerus. Especially when the product of Super refused to answer who was stronger between any of the fusions to Beerus.

I see, thanks for clearing up Zamasu's semi(?) immortality.

Do we know by a fact Black surpassed Vegeta in episode 64? I also disagree with Goku being way stronger than Zamasu, unless his rage boost was stated to be permanent and I missed that. Goku didn't look that much stronger in their last battle.

While there's no evidence I think putting them under Beerus is the safest path to follow at this time.

[perucho1990]

Actually what really doesn't make sense is, they nerfed Vegetto and while he was winning against Zamasu he still had to fight serious, while earlier, Goku BY HIMSELF was winning in a beam struggle. Goku, which is a PART of Vegetto! If Goku alone was already THAT strong, than Merged Zamasu would have been one-shot material for SSJ Blue Vegetto.

Yeah.

It was more like Zamasu screwed himself by buffing up, when in DBZ it was already established growing muscles to increase strength is useless because u lose speed.

Vegetto was "even" with Zamasu before Zamasu buffed up, Zamasu was that slow Trunks could dodge his attacks.

[brett wheeler]

from what I can tell ever since they have returned to the future the power lvls are more like this ( according to my theory of one base that doenst = ssg ).
[spoiler]ssj vegito buu sega = 12,000,000,000,000
base trunks=17,000,000,000,000
base goku after mafuba training= 15,000,000,000,000
base goku black full adaptation= 16,000,000,000,000
base vegeta time chamber training=22,000,000,000,000
zamasu=1,200,000,000,000,000,000,000
super trunks=1,850,000,000,000,000,000,000
ssb goku=1,250,000,000,000,000,000,000
ssjr goku black=1,900,000,000,000,000,000,000
ssb vegeta=2,500,000,000,000,000,000,000
ssjr black goku anger improvement=2,300,000,000,000,000,000,000
ssjr goku black clones=1,200,000,000,000,000,000,000
angry over bulma super trunks=2,200,000,000,000,000,000,000
merged zamasu=15,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
full power angry ssb goku and vegeta team up power=10,750,000,000,000,000,000,000
anger at its limit super trunks=10,500,000,000,000,000,000,000
father son galic gun full power=15,500,000,000,000,000,000,000
ssb goku limit breaking kamehameha that broke his arms=15,200,000,000,000,000,000,000
merged zamasu off guard from goku attack=1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
goku arms broke=1,100,000,000,000,000,000,000
zamasu power returning=2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
goku ssb kaioken*2=2,200,000,000,000,000,000,000
merged zamasu improved and mutated=30,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
base vegito=100,000,000,000,000,000
ssb vegito=70,500,000,000,000,000,000,000
merged zamasu another improvement=50,250,000,000,000,000,000,000
giant merged zamasu=65,500,000,000,000,000,000,000
anger still at limits super trunks ki sword=20,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
full spirit sword super trunks=65,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
goku and vegeta full power added to spirit sword super trunk=67,900,000,000,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]

thats all I can gather for this arc finally future trunks with the spirit sword was powerful but not the lvl of ssb vegito quite yet.

[MagmonKai]

Damn wouldn't it have been nice if Both Zamasu' switched Bodies. The Present Zamasu switched bodies with Goku and the Future Zamasu switched bodies with Vegeta. That way we would have an awesome evil doppleganer battle with SSB Vegito vs SSR Vegito Black...Even though it wouldn't last very long (stupid retcons).

[MajinVegetaPD]

Damn wouldn't it have been nice if Both Zamasu' switched Bodies. The Present Zamasu switched bodies with Goku and the Future Zamasu switched bodies with Vegeta. That way we would have an awesome evil doppleganer battle with SSB Vegito vs SSR Vegito Black...Even though it wouldn't last very long (stupid retcons).

!!!!

That would have been cool on so many levels, as well as put an even more personal spin on it for Trunks.

[HeroR]

Damn wouldn't it have been nice if Both Zamasu' switched Bodies. The Present Zamasu switched bodies with Goku and the Future Zamasu switched bodies with Vegeta. That way we would have an awesome evil doppleganer battle with SSB Vegito vs SSR Vegito Black...Even though it wouldn't last very long (stupid retcons).

Vegeta is dead in the future timeline. So, they couldn't take his body and if they were going to revived anyone, it would have been Goku since that's who Zamasu is obsessed with. Plus, we have enough evil Vegeta between Majin, Baby, and Copy-Vegeta. We don't need a fourth. And before someone mention Turles or even Bardock, Turles is his own character with a thinly veiled excuse as to why he looks like Goku. Bardock is Goku's father. All of the evil Vegetas, except Copy-Vegeta, is Vegeta.

[Bullza]

In the scene where Trunks killed Zamasu, did he himself absorb the power of the Spirit Bomb? Then he poured that energy into the sword like what he did moments earlier with the Golden sword?

That'd be like the scene where Goku kills Android 13.

If so then at that point maybe he really was stronger than Vegito temporarily.

[HeroR]

In the scene where Trunks killed Zamasu, did he himself absorb the power of the Spirit Bomb? Then he poured that energy into the sword like what he did moments earlier with the Golden sword?

That'd be like the scene where Goku kills Android 13.

If so then at that point maybe he really was stronger than Vegito temporarily.

To me, it looks like the personal power boost to Trunks was giving to him by Goku and Vegeta, while he put the Spirit Bomb energy into his sword.

Also, when I think about, when Goku and Vegeta say full-power, I think what they really saying is pushing their limits to the absolute breaking-point. Goku and Vegeta were obviously at full power while fighting Goku Black and Future Zamasu for the last time, especially since this duo handed them their butt twice by that point. So when they say, 'full power' and charged or do a ki attacks against Merged Zamasu, I believe it's supposed to mean that they're going from 100% to 120% and over-clocking their bodies. This could explain why Goku lost the used of his arms after using the Kamehameha, something that has never happened before to my knowledge. It is also similar to Gohan's final battle with Cell when he dumped all his remaining energy to pushed back Cell's Kamehameha and succeeded, despite supposedly losing half of his power and only having used of one arm.

[Bullza]

Well looking at the scene from the start. I always thought that when it came to Trunks and the sword he powers it up with Ki amplification like they do their fists which is why it doesn't shatter when fighting people, not sure if that's true or not but it's what I always though.

He clearly puts all his power into the broken sword to create the yellow blade, so that's a sword made from his own power. I guess there was enough power in it to stand up to Merged Zamasu and cut him so whether that implies Zamasu had weakened down to Trunks level I dunno because Trunks Ki attacks which are also his own power didn't have much effect on him before.

Then a Spirit Bomb is formed. Goku and Vegeta give Trunks his power. He jumps up in the air and then it's as if the Spirit Bomb goes into him because his aura completely changes and then he uses that power to further enhance his sword so it's also got the power of the spirit bomb. He's obviously now far more powerful because he shatters Zamasu's hand sword easily and then kills him.

So the way I interpret it is that Trunks had the power of a Spirit Bomb stacked on top of his own and what energy Goku and Vegeta gave him and he poured that energy into a sword that has the same power like he'd done a couple minutes before.

The confusion if any is why there was enough power in the spirit bomb to be able to change the tide so much because it wasn't that big. More powerful than the Spirit Bomb in the Saiyan saga which we never saw the full capabilities but it was smaller than the one in the Namek saga. If Merged Zamasu really had weakened to slightly above Trunks' level (might be why he didn't kill Goku and Vegeta with a punch) then I can see why it would all give Trunks the edge to win.

[HeroR]

Well looking at the scene from the start. I always thought that when it came to Trunks and the sword he powers it up with Ki amplification like they do their fists which is why it doesn't shatter when fighting people, not sure if that's true or not but it's what I always though.

He clearly puts all his power into the broken sword to create the yellow blade, so that's a sword made from his own power. I guess there was enough power in it to stand up to Merged Zamasu and cut him so whether that implies Zamasu had weakened down to Trunks level I dunno because Trunks Ki attacks which are also his own power didn't have much effect on him before.

Then a Spirit Bomb is formed. Goku and Vegeta give Trunks his power. He jumps up in the air and then it's as if the Spirit Bomb goes into him because his aura completely changes and then he uses that power to further enhance his sword so it's also got the power of the spirit bomb. He's obviously now far more powerful because he shatters Zamasu's hand sword easily and then kills him.

So the way I interpret it is that Trunks had the power of a Spirit Bomb stacked on top of his own and what energy Goku and Vegeta gave him and he poured that energy into a sword that has the same power like he'd done a couple minutes before.

The confusion if any is why there was enough power in the spirit bomb to be able to change the tide so much because it wasn't that big. More powerful than the Spirit Bomb in the Saiyan saga which we never saw the full capabilities but it was smaller than the one in the Namek saga. If Merged Zamasu really had weakened to slightly above Trunks' level (might be why he didn't kill Goku and Vegeta with a punch) then I can see why it would all give Trunks the edge to win.

The Spirit Bomb that formed over Trunks' head was bigger than the one Goku created in the Saiyan Saga. We also shouldn't take size too seriously since the Spirit Bomb that killed Buu was only as big if not smaller than the one that failed to kill Freeza.