Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon May 08, 2017 9:15 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote::problem:
Bullza wrote:If during the Buu saga...

Super Saiyan Gotenks = 10

Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks = 20

Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks = 80

Then what would Super Saiyan 3 Goku be at?
SSJ Gotenks Pre was confident on taking Buu and it was never denied, while suppressed SSJ3 Goku couldn't finish him. Gotenks goes on Rosat because he's too weak for Super Buu, but after he trains on Rosat Piccolo states they "might have a chance", and that's even before he discovers Gotenks can go SSJ. So SSJ3 Goku isn't even 1, and this is using a lower multiplier to SSJ Gotenks.
The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon May 08, 2017 10:32 pm

But is that as a Super Saiyan? Super Saiyan 3?

Goku said he could have beaten the Fat Buu. He didn't stand a chance against Super Buu though.

Base Gotenks originally got stomped by Fat Buu. Apparently he didn't stand a chance against Super Buu as a Super Saiyan which is why he was thrown in the Rosat. He didn't stand much of a chance after training either and was only on par with after using Super Saiyan 3.

Piccolo did at first think Base Gotenks had a chance at beating Super Buu but was completely wrong.

I don't know how you could really say how they compare. In the Yo Son Goku ova Super Saiyan Goku defeated Aka who could withstand attacks from Gotenks to an extent.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue May 09, 2017 7:07 am

There's just no way to determine if SSJ3 Goku was stronger or weaker than SSJ Gotenks.
Both are stronger than Majin Boo; Goku said so himself and Gotenks besides being deserving of Goku's gamble, was never questioned when he went out to fight after turning into SSJ Gotenks for the first time. Piccolo's only concern was that the kids only had 1 minute left in the fusion.

Regarding Piccolo's hope that Base Gotenks might have a chance against Super Boo, well for me it's a blatant gag. I mean Piccolo literally facepalms, that line is clearly a set up for the gag and later information confirms Base Gotenks is a speck of dust.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Tue May 09, 2017 1:17 pm

Bullza wrote:But is that as a Super Saiyan? Super Saiyan 3?

Goku said he could have beaten the Fat Buu. He didn't stand a chance against Super Buu though.

Base Gotenks originally got stomped by Fat Buu. Apparently he didn't stand a chance against Super Buu as a Super Saiyan which is why he was thrown in the Rosat. He didn't stand much of a chance after training either and was only on par with after using Super Saiyan 3.

Piccolo did at first think Base Gotenks had a chance at beating Super Buu but was completely wrong.

I don't know how you could really say how they compare. In the Yo Son Goku ova Super Saiyan Goku defeated Aka who could withstand attacks from Gotenks to an extent.
You could very well say that Gotenks only "surpassed Vegeta and the others" after unlocking Super Saiyan 3, or you could say that he did so as a regular Super Saiyan. whatever works for you.
However, I would take Goku's belief that the boys fusion would definitely beat Boo with a grain of salt since Gotenks didn't actually exist yet. You can definitely take Goku's statement of Gotenks immediately being stronger than him with a drain of salt, since Goku was already underplaying his strength, saying that he couldn't beat Fat Boo with Super Saiyan 3, something that he takes back later on.
Piccolo thinking base Gotenks had a chance is pretty much just him being desperately optimistic after seeing that Gotenks has improved a lot. He's quickly shut down, though.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Fri May 12, 2017 4:22 am

I think that it's counter intuitive to have a SSJ surpass a SSJ3 that easily, specially when the former wasn't the strongest transformation we had seen, unlike Super Vegetto whom Gohan had preceded with a regular looking form in its Ultimate state. Gotenks' fight against Super Boo had nothing to showcase his superiority, except for Goku and Piccolo overestimating him, before he transformed into SSJ3 and left the Room of Spirit and Time. Then, even if Goku came last with his own Super Saiyan 3 form against Pure Boo, it's only because the last thing we had seen was Super Vegetto, in order to make the final battle even more exciting after a long hiatus, no matter if Goku was leagues behind Vegetto. In other words, the series went from base to SSJ and its ascended forms to end at base and SSJ again, in terms of importance and/or strength.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri May 12, 2017 12:42 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote::problem:
Bullza wrote:If during the Buu saga...

Super Saiyan Gotenks = 10

Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks = 20

Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks = 80

Then what would Super Saiyan 3 Goku be at?
SSJ Gotenks Pre was confident on taking Buu and it was never denied, while suppressed SSJ3 Goku couldn't finish him. Gotenks goes on Rosat because he's too weak for Super Buu, but after he trains on Rosat Piccolo states they "might have a chance", and that's even before he discovers Gotenks can go SSJ. So SSJ3 Goku isn't even 1, and this is using a lower multiplier to SSJ Gotenks.
The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others.
And that's why Base Gotenks post > Majin Vegeta
VegetaSSJBlue wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote::problem:
Bullza wrote:If during the Buu saga...

Super Saiyan Gotenks = 10

Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks = 20

Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks = 80

Then what would Super Saiyan 3 Goku be at?
SSJ Gotenks Pre was confident on taking Buu and it was never denied, while suppressed SSJ3 Goku couldn't finish him. Gotenks goes on Rosat because he's too weak for Super Buu, but after he trains on Rosat Piccolo states they "might have a chance", and that's even before he discovers Gotenks can go SSJ. So SSJ3 Goku isn't even 1, and this is using a lower multiplier to SSJ Gotenks.
:clap: :clap: :clap:[/quote]

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DanielSSJ wrote: Piccolo thinking base Gotenks had a chance is pretty much just him being desperately optimistic after seeing that Gotenks has improved a lot. He's quickly shut down, though.
I completely forgot that. After i read the fight, Gotenks really doesn't seem to be that special. But i still having him at SSJ2 tier on base, anyway.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri May 12, 2017 3:03 pm

It's the completely​different opinions on this that makes this saga the hardest to do power levels for.

I had SSJ3 Goku = SSJ Gotenks but yeah he could be stronger or weaker.

Does anything outside of Dragon Ball Z help narrow it down? Like the Yo Son Goku OVA or Battle of Gods?

For example when Vegeta snapped after Bulma got hit, Roshi said that Vegeta had surpassed Goku and not Gotenks and he must have just seen Beerus smack the Super Saiyan out of Gotenks.

It'd seem a bit farfetched that Super Saiyan Gotenks could be dozens of times stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Vegeta surpassed that just by being angry. I could see him being several times stronger but not several dozen times.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Fri May 12, 2017 5:13 pm

I think that it's easy if we introduce a few things that, in spite of them not being stated directly, could be inferred by people with an attentive eye. We know that characters can power up in their forms and reach full power: we have seen Goku go up to half of it in front of Korin. They can also jump between static levels and power up between them: we've seen Goku's Kaioken rise in numbers before the multiplier and then another on an instant. So why don't we use a range of power to describe their transformations? If the character didn't actually surpass another in one form by poweing up, then he may have jumped into another to accomplish that, specially when Gotenks skipped SSJ2.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat May 13, 2017 2:17 am

Bullza wrote:It's the completely​different opinions on this that makes this saga the hardest to do power levels for.

I had SSJ3 Goku = SSJ Gotenks but yeah he could be stronger or weaker.

Does anything outside of Dragon Ball Z help narrow it down? Like the Yo Son Goku OVA or Battle of Gods?

For example when Vegeta snapped after Bulma got hit, Roshi said that Vegeta had surpassed Goku and not Gotenks and he must have just seen Beerus smack the Super Saiyan out of Gotenks.

It'd seem a bit farfetched that Super Saiyan Gotenks could be dozens of times stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Vegeta surpassed that just by being angry. I could see him being several times stronger but not several dozen times.
Well Roshi never saw SS3 Gotenks now did he?

This is actually a good point in favor of SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Gotenks (post RoSaT).

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat May 13, 2017 1:56 pm

Here are my levels of the whole Buu arc, this time I didn't put up explanations about them, but if you have some doubts of these levels, you can post them and I can happily answer you:

Goten - 26,000,000
SSJ Goten - 1,300,000,000
Goten - 40,000,000
SSJ Goten - 2,000,000,000

Trunks - 34,000,000
SSJ Trunks - 1,700,000,000
Trunks - 50,000,000
SSJ Trunks - 2,500,000,000

Gohan - 65,000,000
SSJ Gohan - 3,250,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan - 6,500,000,000

Vegeta - 72,000,000
SSJ Vegeta - 3,600,000,000
SSJ2 Vegeta - 7,200,000,000
SSJ Majin Vegeta - 4,500,000,000
SSJ2 Majin Vegeta - 9,000,000,000

Goku - 90,000,000
SSJ Goku - 4,500,000,000
SSJ2 Goku - 9,000,000,000
SSJ3 Goku - 36,000,000,000

Weighted Piccolo - 1,400,000,000
Piccolo - 1,800,000,000

Kibito - 50,000,000

Supreme Kai - 2,500,000,000

Kibito Shin - 25,000,000,000

Pui Pui - 180,000

Yakon - 100,000,000

Dabura - 3,400,000,000

Majin Buu - 18,000,000,000
Good Buu - 8,000,000,000
Evil Buu - 10,000,000,000
Super Buu - 150,000,000,000
Super Buutenks - 312,000,000,000
Super Buucollo - 152,000,000,000
Super Buuhan - 352,000,000,000
Buff Buu - 180,000,000,000
Kid Buu - 35,000,000,000

Gotenks - 140,000,000
SSJ Gotenks - 7,000,000,000
Gotenks - 400,000,000
SSJ Gotenks - 20,000,000,000
SSJ2 Gotenks - 40,000,000,000
SSJ3 Gotenks - 160,000,000,000

Gohan - 200,000,000,000

Vegito - 16,200,000
SSJ Vegito - 810,000,000,000

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sat May 13, 2017 2:09 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:Kibito Shin - 25,000,000,000
The only thing that really sticks out as odd to me is this.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat May 13, 2017 4:13 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:
dragonball0900 wrote:Kibito Shin - 25,000,000,000
The only thing that really sticks out as odd to me is this.
The thing is, the potara fusion is stated to be very powerful, and I doubt Supreme Kai and Kibito got a very small boost from fusing. My potara fusion formula of Goku and Vegeta is (X+Y) x100, but that was only because of them being rivals so I made a (X+Y) x10 for Supreme Kai and Kibito's fusion. He also seemed confident in going to defeat Buu along with Goku, despite the fact that he knew Fat Buu's strenght. It doesn't contradict anything as long as he is weaker than Kid Buu/SSJ3 Goku.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat May 13, 2017 7:00 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Well Roshi never saw SS3 Gotenks now did he?

This is actually a good point in favor of SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Gotenks (post RoSaT).
No he never saw SSJ3 Gotenks but he did see SSJ Gotenks a few times. On Kami's Lookout, during his fight with Aka and during his fight with Beerus.

He saw Beerus beat him up and then Vegeta had a go, snapped and Roshi said that Vegeta was stronger than Goku. You'd think if SSJ Gotenks was stronger then he'd have said him right? Despite what he saw he seemed more amazed that he'd surpassed Goku.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sat May 13, 2017 11:16 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:The thing is, the potara fusion is stated to be very powerful, and I doubt Supreme Kai and Kibito got a very small boost from fusing. My potara fusion formula of Goku and Vegeta is (X+Y) x100, but that was only because of them being rivals so I made a (X+Y) x10 for Supreme Kai and Kibito's fusion. He also seemed confident in going to defeat Buu along with Goku, despite the fact that he knew Fat Buu's strength. It doesn't contradict anything as long as he is weaker than Kid Buu/SSJ3 Goku.
I dunno, it just seems odd that he wouldn't stick around to help with Pure Boo if he were that much stronger than Vegeta. I don't really even bother with a fusion formula since it's probably dependent on a bunch of different things besides power.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sun May 14, 2017 11:55 am

DanielSSJ wrote:
dragonball0900 wrote:The thing is, the potara fusion is stated to be very powerful, and I doubt Supreme Kai and Kibito got a very small boost from fusing. My potara fusion formula of Goku and Vegeta is (X+Y) x100, but that was only because of them being rivals so I made a (X+Y) x10 for Supreme Kai and Kibito's fusion. He also seemed confident in going to defeat Buu along with Goku, despite the fact that he knew Fat Buu's strength. It doesn't contradict anything as long as he is weaker than Kid Buu/SSJ3 Goku.
I dunno, it just seems odd that he wouldn't stick around to help with Pure Boo if he were that much stronger than Vegeta. I don't really even bother with a fusion formula since it's probably dependent on a bunch of different things besides power.
Well, maybe you're right. Now that I think about it, with another formula for them like (X+Y)*5, I'd place the fusion near 12,000,000,000. He would still be stronger than Vegeta and Goku with their SSJ2 forms, but weaker than Fat Buu (prior the division of Good and Evil Buu).

However he did seem pretty confident in going with Goku, despite the fact that he knew Fat Buu's strenght since Fat Buu defeated Supreme Kai easily, wouldn't that place him over Fat Buu?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun May 14, 2017 12:13 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:
dragonball0900 wrote:The thing is, the potara fusion is stated to be very powerful, and I doubt Supreme Kai and Kibito got a very small boost from fusing. My potara fusion formula of Goku and Vegeta is (X+Y) x100, but that was only because of them being rivals so I made a (X+Y) x10 for Supreme Kai and Kibito's fusion. He also seemed confident in going to defeat Buu along with Goku, despite the fact that he knew Fat Buu's strength. It doesn't contradict anything as long as he is weaker than Kid Buu/SSJ3 Goku.
I dunno, it just seems odd that he wouldn't stick around to help with Pure Boo if he were that much stronger than Vegeta.
Rou Kaioshin told him to don't go because he would be absorbed. Also, remember Kaioshins work on a different way in Buu's body. So he didn't go to the fight because everybody would be in trouble if he was absorbed.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Analytic » Sun May 14, 2017 2:13 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:There's a lot of glowing compliments to Gotenks' strength, but almost no direct comparisons.
Goku directly says that Gotenks will be stronger than him.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Sun May 14, 2017 3:36 pm

Multipliers
Oozaru - 10x
Super Saiyan (SSJ) - 50x
Super Saiyan 2 (SSJ2) - 100x
Super Saiyan 3 (SSJ3) - 400x
Super Saiyan God (SSG) - 40,000x


Dragon Ball Minus

[spoiler]Jaco - 150
Bardock - 2,500
Gine - 1,000

Bardock (Last Stand) - 10,000[/spoiler]


Dragon Ball Z

Dragon Ball Super Power Levels

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun May 14, 2017 3:44 pm

emperior wrote:Multipliers
Oozaru - 10x
Super Saiyan (SSJ) - 50x
Super Saiyan 2 (SSJ2) - 100x
Super Saiyan 3 (SSJ3) - 400x
Super Saiyan God (SSG) - 40,000x
Isn't it implied Goku's ten times stronger than he was against Hit when they fight again?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sun May 14, 2017 4:19 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:However he did seem pretty confident in going with Goku, despite the fact that he knew Fat Buu's strength since Fat Buu defeated Supreme Kai easily, wouldn't that place him over Fat Buu?
I really wouldn't put much stock into anything Kaioshin has to say regarding his or his opponents power. He seems to make bad judgement calls when nervous or excited. He totally underestimates the Saiyans when they face off against Bobbidi's goons. I find it more likely that when Kaioshin fused he just got a little carried away with power until the elder told him to sit his ass back down. While there isn't anything inherently preventing him from being that strong, I just feel that he would've actually done something if it if he did.

I usually just say that he got about twice or three times as strong as normal, which would put him around the same level as the Super Saiyan 2s, but he'd still wouldn't be helpful due to his own general ineptitude.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Rou Kaioshin told him to don't go because he would be absorbed. Also, remember Kaioshins work on a different way in Buu's body. So he didn't go to the fight because everybody would be in trouble if he was absorbed.
Honestly, I think Boo would be in more trouble if he absorbed Kaioshin's ineptitude.
Analytic wrote:Goku directly says that Gotenks will be stronger than him.
It seems extremely telling to me that the only concrete comparative statements about Gotenks were made before he ever existed, and it's by the guy who is already downplaying his own strength. Gotenks is unfulfilled hype. That's his shtick. He's built up as this ultimate warrior who's gonna be even stronger than Goku and could totally beat Boo, but when he finally shows up, he's a cocky little snot who get's his ass kicked because he underestimated his opponent or just because he goofed off and ran out of time. The only time when Gotenks actually lives up to expectations is when he goes Super Saiyan 3, and even that is undercut by the time limit.
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