Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

It's all an inconsistent mess, I don't know if it's because of different writers or what. It's confused people ever since Battle of Gods came out because King Kai said mortals can't sense Gods but Goku can sense King Kai and he's a God.

Then they say they need to be at a certain level to be able to sense God Ki but then characters at or above this level can't sense it like Frieza or Trunks. This rule apparently doesn't apply to those with it already though because Dende can sense Beerus. Golden Frieza and Hit can seemingly sense it in the one version but not the other.

The Oracle Fish mentions that Whis has God Ki even though he's not a God but an Angel and Beerus even said he's not a deity so why does he have God Ki?

SSJ2 Trunks can't sense Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta but he can sense Black beforehand no problem and Black is supposed to have pretty much the same Ki as Zamasu going by what Beerus and Whis said and Zamasu has God Ki. Then he can somehow sense it in his weaker Base form in the last episode now too so whether that means he obtained God Ki with that new form or something else I dunno.

It's just all over the place.

We've been saying this for a year now. What made it all click that it really and truly does have poor/inconsistent writing?

[Bullza]

Why are you aiming that at me? I've said many of times that because of all the different writers there will be inconsistencies and mistakes. I told people not to take every word as law.

You've got people trying to fit everything that's said together and that's impossible.

It's something that'll happen many more times as well. That was always going to be the problem when there's no manga to base it off of and it's all written by like four or five different people. Like the 10% line, it was said ages back, it made sense for the time but other things have been said and shown since and now it doesn't so I don't pay it too much mind.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I don't think Black ever had God Chi, or was ever implied to have it. I believe Goku, Beers, and Whis were able to compare the feel of it to Zamasu simply because they can sense anyone. Someone unable to gauge the Gods would've never been able to sense the familiarity. Once we saw Piccolo and Krillin sensing Black, we could see that he couldn't have had God Chi. As for Kaio, I remember when people would try to say Goku was sensing Bubbles Chi instead, but eh....that doesn't make sense to me. He trained with Kaio for about a yr. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't know how his Chi feels.

But yeah, Super has a lot of inconsistencies. I've just focused on trying to enjoy it moreso than trying to think of an explanation for everything little thing. I still like to analyze a lot of stuff, but certain things I just don't even bother with.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Why are you aiming that at me? I've said many of times that because of all the different writers there will be inconsistencies and mistakes. I told people not to take every word as law.

You've got people trying to fit everything that's said together and that's impossible.

It's something that'll happen many more times as well. That was always going to be the problem when there's no manga to base it off of and it's all written by like four or five different people. Like the 10% line, it was said ages back, it made sense for the time but other things have been said and shown since and now it doesn't so I don't pay it too much mind.

Even back then it didn't make any sense, Beerus was stated to be far superior to Vegetto, so SSJ3 Vegetto at best would be ~40-50% of Beerus' strength and given the fact that SSJ3 is 4x stronger than SSJ2, that would mean Vegeta became as strong as Vegetto from his rage boost.

I don't think Black ever had God Chi, or was ever implied to have it. I believe Goku, Beers, and Whis were able to compare the feel of it to Zamasu simply because they can sense anyone. Someone unable to gauge the Gods would've never been able to sense the familiarity. Once we saw Piccolo and Krillin sensing Black, we could see that he couldn't have had God Chi. As for Kaio, I remember when people would try to say Goku was sensing Bubbles Chi instead, but eh....that doesn't make sense to me. He trained with Kaio for about a yr. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't know how his Chi feels.

But yeah, Super has a lot of inconsistencies. I've just focused on trying to enjoy it moreso than trying to think of an explanation for everything little thing. I still like to analyze a lot of stuff, but certain things I just don't even bother with.

Black clearly has God ki given the fact that he has Super Saiyan Rose.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

No, he doesn't. Piccolo and Krillin sensed him the entire time when he arrived from the future. If he had God Chi as Black, he wouldn't have been sensed by them at all. Also, channeling God Chi through a transformation is entirely different than having God Chi on a normal basis.

Beers has God Chi, Whis has God Chi, Kaioshin has God Chi, Zamasu has God Chi, Super Saiyan Blue Goku has God Chi, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta has God Chi, Super Saiyan Rose most likely has God Chi.

Base Goku has normal Chi, Base Vegeta has normal Chi, Black has normal Chi considering they can all be sensed by anyone. That's the difference.

[Marlowe89]

Also, if Cabba and Base Vegeta were equal, and Godly Ki sensing is based on one's battle power, then that favors the "Two-Base Theory" even more

We don't actually need all these indirect inferences to see what does and doesn't favor the idea of two bases, since there's a number of official things both within and outside of the anime that directly suggest its validity in some shape or form.

In Episode 20, Whis instructs Goku and Vegeta to clamly raise their ki without letting it leak. After doing so, we see a display of God ki when their fists clash followed by them looking shocked and then observing themselves in amazement.

In Episode 47, Vegeta appears to do the same thing during his sparring match against Whis and then a strange white glow forms around his body (clearly signifying some kind of altered base state). A few shots later he goes from this state to Super Saiyan Blue, which is thematically consistent with Super Saiyan Blue's stated definition in which we know it to be the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.

Outside of the anime, you've got the special event in Dokkan Battle where Whis says that if Goku utilizes the power of a Super Saiyan God and then transforms into Super Saiyan, he'll become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (or Super Saiyan Blue as we currently know it). Dragon Ball Heroes has "Saiyan Beyond God", which mechanically offers a boost between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God. Neither of these necessarily share Super's continuity, but it's doubtful that they would be included in some official capacity at all if it was never intended to be a thing.

I don't mind if certain fans are hesitant to buy the theory, but it's unreasonable at this point to suggest that it doesn't have any backing because it absolutely does.

[HeroR]

It's all an inconsistent mess, I don't know if it's because of different writers or what. It's confused people ever since Battle of Gods came out because King Kai said mortals can't sense Gods but Goku can sense King Kai and he's a God.

Then they say they need to be at a certain level to be able to sense God Ki but then characters at or above this level can't sense it like Frieza or Trunks. This rule apparently doesn't apply to those with it already though because Dende can sense Beerus. Golden Frieza and Hit can seemingly sense it in the one version but not the other.

The Oracle Fish mentions that Whis has God Ki even though he's not a God but an Angel and Beerus even said he's not a deity so why does he have God Ki?

SSJ2 Trunks can't sense Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta but he can sense Black beforehand no problem and Black is supposed to have pretty much the same Ki as Zamasu going by what Beerus and Whis said and Zamasu has God Ki. Then he can somehow sense it in his weaker Base form in the last episode now too so whether that means he obtained God Ki with that new form or something else I dunno.

It's just all over the place.

As people have pointed out, at least in his base form, Black never had God ki. Krillin and Piccolo sensed him, and neither of them can sense Goku or Vegeta's God forms. And the Kais don't seem to have the same type of God ki as Beerus or even Whis since people can sense them. It should also be noted that was never explicitly said Whis has God ki. Only that it was similar.

[Bullza]

Then if Black doesn't have God Ki then why can he sense God Ki? Black was about as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku and going by this two base theory both of them should be much weaker than Saiyan Beyond Goku whose just about at that level to be able to sense God Ki.

So Black should be too weak to be able to sense God Ki but he can.

The Kai's not seeming to have the same God Ki is the cause of confusion though. They're Gods more of a God than Whis. King Kai can sense Beerus because he's a God but then Goku can sense that one God but not the other.

In Episode 17 when Whis was flying to Beerus' planet with Goku, Vegeta noted that he was coming back (he wouldn't be referring to Goku) and the Oracle Fish said something like "Oh you're finally able to sense God Ki"

So yeah he isn't a God as Beerus pointed out but he can sense God Ki.

[Helios518]

Then if Black doesn't have God Ki then why can he sense God Ki? Black was about as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku and going by this two base theory both of them should be much weaker than Saiyan Beyond Goku whose just about at that level to be able to sense God Ki.

So Black should be too weak to be able to sense God Ki but he can.

The Kai's not seeming to have the same God Ki is the cause of confusion though. They're Gods more of a God than Whis. King Kai can sense Beerus because he's a God but then Goku can sense that one God but not the other.

In Episode 17 when Whis was flying to Beerus' planet with Goku, Vegeta noted that he was coming back (he wouldn't be referring to Goku) and the Oracle Fish said something like "Oh you're finally able to sense God Ki"

So yeah he isn't a God as Beerus pointed out but he can sense God Ki.

Maybe there's some half way point like sensing god ki but not having it? i mean even Dende was able to sense Beerus but i doubt he has god ki himself or is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Zamasu had the ability to sense God ki, he presumably retained that ability in Goku's body.

[HeroR]

Then if Black doesn't have God Ki then why can he sense God Ki? Black was about as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku and going by this two base theory both of them should be much weaker than Saiyan Beyond Goku whose just about at that level to be able to sense God Ki.

So Black should be too weak to be able to sense God Ki but he can.

The Kai's not seeming to have the same God Ki is the cause of confusion though. They're Gods more of a God than Whis. King Kai can sense Beerus because he's a God but then Goku can sense that one God but not the other.

In Episode 17 when Whis was flying to Beerus' planet with Goku, Vegeta noted that he was coming back (he wouldn't be referring to Goku) and the Oracle Fish said something like "Oh you're finally able to sense God Ki"

So yeah he isn't a God as Beerus pointed out but he can sense God Ki.

Black's base form alone is as strong as Super Saiyan 3, which is much stronger than Goku's base form, which can sense god ki. That isn't rocket science, he's well past the point of sensing god energy.

We knew since Battle of Gods movies that the Kais didn't seem to have the same type of ki as Beerus, despite also being gods. If gods always had ki that was not sensible to mortals, Goku wouldn't have been as shocked as he was about being unable to sense Beerus.

Maybe there's some half way point like sensing god ki but not having it? i mean even Dende was able to sense Beerus but i doubt he has god ki himself or is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

In Denda's case, he could sense Beerus because he's a god, an appointed god, but still a god. It seems if you're a god, you don't need to be strong to sense someone like Beerus. King Kai and the Supreme Kai sensed Beerus, and they're much weaker than him.

Zamasu had the ability to sense God ki, he presumably retained that ability in Goku's body.

Going by Trunks, Black was only recently learning how to sense regular ki. Although, how true that is, is debatable sense Black found Goku on Earth with no problem and teleported right to him.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Going by Trunks, Black was only recently learning how to sense regular ki. Although, how true that is, is debatable sense Black found Goku on Earth with no problem and teleported right to him.

We don't know how reliable Trunks is, he also said Black was just as strong if not more powerful than SSJ3 Goku yet he turned out to be even weaker than SSJ2 Goku. Granted his strength was constantly rising from his Zenkais so he would eventually reach that level, but the point is he was initially much weaker than Trunks predicted.

[HeroR]

Going by Trunks, Black was only recently learning how to sense regular ki. Although, how true that is, is debatable sense Black found Goku on Earth with no problem and teleported right to him.

We don't know how reliable Trunks is, he also said Black was just as strong if not more powerful than SSJ3 Goku yet he turned out to be even weaker than SSJ2 Goku. Granted his strength was constantly rising from his Zenkais so he would eventually reach that level, but the point is he was initially much weaker than Trunks predicted.

Black was clearly holding back and even said he was holding back since he wanted to fight Goku for as long as possible. He also wasn't weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Goku. They fought to a draw until Black started to get sucked back into the time portal. I suggest you watched Episode 50 again. Trunks even said that Black was stronger in the future.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Going by Trunks, Black was only recently learning how to sense regular ki. Although, how true that is, is debatable sense Black found Goku on Earth with no problem and teleported right to him.

We don't know how reliable Trunks is, he also said Black was just as strong if not more powerful than SSJ3 Goku yet he turned out to be even weaker than SSJ2 Goku. Granted his strength was constantly rising from his Zenkais so he would eventually reach that level, but the point is he was initially much weaker than Trunks predicted.

Black was clearly holding back and even said he was holding back since he wanted to fight Goku for as long as possible. He also wasn't weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Goku. They fought to a draw until Black started to get sucked back into the time portal. I suggest you watched Episode 50 again. Trunks even said that Black was stronger in the future.

I wasn't referring to that fight, I was talking about when he was overwhelmed by SSJ2 Trunks who is inferior to SSJ2 Goku. Even if he was actually stronger than Trunks, the gap certainly wasn't all that large or Trunks' attacks would do absolutely nothing.

[HeroR]

I wasn't referring to that fight, I was talking about when he was overwhelmed by SSJ2 Trunks who is inferior to SSJ2 Goku. Even if he was actually stronger than Trunks, the gap certainly wasn't all that large or Trunks' attacks would do absolutely nothing.

It was Super Saiyan Trunks, not Super Saiyan 2, and Black literally laughed when Trunks punched him in the stomach. We also saw in a flashback in Episode 51 that Black took down Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in just a couple of hits. Black was always vastly ahead of Trunks. Trunks hitting Black means nothing since it's clear that he's dicking him.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I wasn't referring to that fight, I was talking about when he was overwhelmed by SSJ2 Trunks who is inferior to SSJ2 Goku. Even if he was actually stronger than Trunks, the gap certainly wasn't all that large or Trunks' attacks would do absolutely nothing.

It was Super Saiyan Trunks, not Super Saiyan 2, and Black literally laughed when Trunks punched him in the stomach. We also saw in a flashback in Episode 51 that Black took down Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in just a couple of hits. Black was always vastly ahead of Trunks. Trunks hitting Black means nothing since it's clear that he's dicking him.

Super doesn't do a very good job of differentiating between SSJ2 and SSJ, especially with Trunks. It would make no sense for Trunks to use a weaker form when he's rage boosted and desperate so it's logical to assume he was using SSJ2 at the time. Black also laughed when he was getting pounded into the ground by Goku and later Vegeta, all it shows is that he's a masochist.

[HeroR]

Super doesn't do a very good job of differentiating between SSJ2 and SSJ, especially with Trunks. It would make no sense for Trunks to use a weaker form when he's rage boosted and desperate so it's logical to assume he was using SSJ2 at the time. Black also laughed when he was getting pounded into the ground by Goku and later Vegeta, all it shows is that he's a masochist.

Trunks was just a Super Saiyan in Episode 48. No lightning, which is always shown when Trunks uses Super Saiyan 2 in the anime. We didn't see Super Saiyan 2 Trunks until Episode 49. And Trunks fought Black mostly in his base form in Episode 47, so him not using his strongest transformation isn't that odd. And Black clearly wasn't hurt by Trunks' punch, given that he beat the shit out of him without trying.

[Marlowe89]

Zamasu had the ability to sense God ki, he presumably retained that ability in Goku's body.

This. He retained the ability to use the time ring despite the fact that it's only usable by those that are Kaioshin, so we can reasonably infer that he retained the ability to sense God ki as well.

[ekrolo2]

He has the same power level as his old body and Goku, Beerus and Whis commented on how his ki was close to Black's so I don't see how it isn't God Ki.

[Bullza]

Black's base form alone is as strong as Super Saiyan 3, which is much stronger than Goku's base form, which can sense god ki. That isn't rocket science, he's well past the point of sensing god energy.

But the two base theory is that Goku's Super Saiyan forms are weaker than his Saiyan Beyond God form. If Saiyan Beyond God Goku is only about at the level that he could sense God Ki then Black who would be much weaker than Saiyan Beyond God Goju should not be able to sense God Ki but he can.

Forgetting the two base theory then anyone at or above Base Goku's level should be able to sense God Ki like Cabba, Magetta, Trunks and Frost but they (seemingly) can't.

So it doesn't work either way.