Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Zamasu had the ability to sense God ki, he presumably retained that ability in Goku's body.

This. He retained the ability to use the time ring despite the fact that it's only usable by those that are Kaioshin, so we can reasonably infer that he retained the ability to sense God ki as well.

Yet, according to Trunks, he had problems sensing normal ki.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Super doesn't do a very good job of differentiating between SSJ2 and SSJ, especially with Trunks. It would make no sense for Trunks to use a weaker form when he's rage boosted and desperate so it's logical to assume he was using SSJ2 at the time. Black also laughed when he was getting pounded into the ground by Goku and later Vegeta, all it shows is that he's a masochist.

Trunks was just a Super Saiyan in Episode 48. No lightning, which is always shown when Trunks uses Super Saiyan 2 in the anime. We didn't see Super Saiyan 2 Trunks until Episode 49. And Trunks fought Black mostly in his base form in Episode 47, so him not using his strongest transformation isn't that odd. And Black clearly wasn't hurt by Trunks' punch, given that he beat the shit out of him without trying.

My point is that it wasn't the sort of domination that you'd expect from a gap of over 4x (8x if you believe he's only SSJ), it's more reminiscent of much closer fights like Kaioken x2 Goku vs Vegeta or Vegeta vs 18.

Black's base form alone is as strong as Super Saiyan 3, which is much stronger than Goku's base form, which can sense god ki. That isn't rocket science, he's well past the point of sensing god energy.

But the two base theory is that Goku's Super Saiyan forms are weaker than his Saiyan Beyond God form. If Saiyan Beyond God Goku is only about at the level that he could sense God Ki then Black who would be much weaker than Saiyan Beyond God Goju should not be able to sense God Ki but he can.

Forgetting the two base theory then anyone at or above Base Goku's level should be able to sense God Ki like Cabba, Magetta, Trunks and Frost but they (seemingly) can't.

So it doesn't work either way.

Obviously strength isn't what decides whether or not you can sense God ki as in that case none of the Kais would be able to sense it.

Zamasu had the ability to sense God ki, he presumably retained that ability in Goku's body.

This. He retained the ability to use the time ring despite the fact that it's only usable by those that are Kaioshin, so we can reasonably infer that he retained the ability to sense God ki as well.

Yet, according to Trunks, he had problems sensing normal ki.

Trunks is also wrong about many things.

[HeroR]

Super doesn't do a very good job of differentiating between SSJ2 and SSJ, especially with Trunks. It would make no sense for Trunks to use a weaker form when he's rage boosted and desperate so it's logical to assume he was using SSJ2 at the time. Black also laughed when he was getting pounded into the ground by Goku and later Vegeta, all it shows is that he's a masochist.

Trunks was just a Super Saiyan in Episode 48. No lightning, which is always shown when Trunks uses Super Saiyan 2 in the anime. We didn't see Super Saiyan 2 Trunks until Episode 49. And Trunks fought Black mostly in his base form in Episode 47, so him not using his strongest transformation isn't that odd. And Black clearly wasn't hurt by Trunks' punch, given that he beat the shit out of him without trying.

My point is that it wasn't the sort of domination that you'd expect from a gap of over 4x (8x if you believe he's only SSJ), it's more reminiscent of much closer fights like Kaioken x2 Goku vs Vegeta or Vegeta vs 18.

Black's base form alone is as strong as Super Saiyan 3, which is much stronger than Goku's base form, which can sense god ki. That isn't rocket science, he's well past the point of sensing god energy.

But the two base theory is that Goku's Super Saiyan forms are weaker than his Saiyan Beyond God form. If Saiyan Beyond God Goku is only about at the level that he could sense God Ki then Black who would be much weaker than Saiyan Beyond God Goju should not be able to sense God Ki but he can.

Forgetting the two base theory then anyone at or above Base Goku's level should be able to sense God Ki like Cabba, Magetta, Trunks and Frost but they (seemingly) can't.

So it doesn't work either way.

Obviously strength isn't what decides whether or not you can sense God ki as in that case none of the Kais would be able to sense it.

This. He retained the ability to use the time ring despite the fact that it's only usable by those that are Kaioshin, so we can reasonably infer that he retained the ability to sense God ki as well.

Yet, according to Trunks, he had problems sensing normal ki.

Trunks is also wrong about many things.

It doesn't matter. Trunks clearly wasn't a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Black in Episode 48. No lightning, unlike all the other times he went Super Saiyan 2. Black and Trunks was no where near closed even in that first fight, especially when you look at Episode 51 when a weaker Black took out Trunks in a couple of blows.

You're also assuming that Cabba and Magetta can't sense god ki, when they made no comment and Frost was knocked out.

Trunks wasn't wrong since he fought Black for over a year and he was correct when he stated that Black's lack of surprise towards Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan shows that Black saw it before.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Trunks wasn't wrong since he fought Black for over a year and he was correct when he stated that Black's lack of surprise towards Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan shows that Black saw it before.

Black saw it before on GodTube while he was watching the tournament, his lack of surprise has nothing to do with strength. Also, at that point Black also got a major amp in power and went from SSJ2-SSJ3 tier to SSBlue tier.

[Marlowe89]

Yet, according to Trunks, he had problems sensing normal ki.

True, but that's normal ki. Gods are likely more intimately familiar with sensing God ki, and we know that Black retained certain Kaioshin traits, so that might have been the reason for him retaining that ability.

Who knows, really? Even if we assume that Black can sense God ki only because he reached a specific power level, he was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in base so it doesn't particularly pose a problem for any interpretation of the power scale.

[HeroR]

Yet, according to Trunks, he had problems sensing normal ki.

True, but that's normal ki. Gods are likely more intimately familiar with sensing God ki, and we know that Black retained certain Kaioshin traits, so that might have been the reason for him retaining that ability.

Who knows, really? Even if we assume that Black can sense God ki only because he reached a specific power level, he was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in base so it doesn't particularly pose a problem for any interpretation of the power scale.

Future Zamasu can sense normal ki just fine. Only god ki have been shown to need a special level to sense.

Trunks wasn't wrong since he fought Black for over a year and he was correct when he stated that Black's lack of surprise towards Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan shows that Black saw it before.

Black saw it before on GodTube while he was watching the tournament, his lack of surprise has nothing to do with strength. Also, at that point Black also got a major amp in power and went from SSJ2-SSJ3 tier to SSBlue tier.

The point is that people were dismissive of Trunks when he notes that Black wasn't surprised by Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. We didn't see Zamasu looking at Godtube until the next episode. This also shows that Trunks 'got a lot of things wrong', when his record on Black has proven to be mostly right.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Yet, according to Trunks, he had problems sensing normal ki.

True, but that's normal ki. Gods are likely more intimately familiar with sensing God ki, and we know that Black retained certain Kaioshin traits, so that might have been the reason for him retaining that ability.

Who knows, really? Even if we assume that Black can sense God ki only because he reached a specific power level, he was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in base so it doesn't particularly pose a problem for any interpretation of the power scale.

Future Zamasu can sense normal ki just fine. Only god ki have been shown to need a special level to sense.

Trunks wasn't wrong since he fought Black for over a year and he was correct when he stated that Black's lack of surprise towards Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan shows that Black saw it before.

Black saw it before on GodTube while he was watching the tournament, his lack of surprise has nothing to do with strength. Also, at that point Black also got a major amp in power and went from SSJ2-SSJ3 tier to SSBlue tier.

The point is that people were dismissive of Trunks when he notes that Black wasn't surprised by Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. We didn't see Zamasu looking at Godtube until the next episode. This also shows that Trunks 'got a lot of things wrong', when his record on Black has proven to be mostly right.

Trunks also said Goku and Black were evenly matched, but Black had Goku on the ropes and was about to kill him with that Dark Kamehameha mere seconds after Trunks stated this.

[HeroR]

Trunks also said Goku and Black were evenly matched, but Black had Goku on the ropes and was about to kill him with that Dark Kamehameha mere seconds after Trunks stated this.

Trunks based that on the fact that Goku didn't die in several hits, unlike Vegeta who had a giant stab wound in his chest.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Trunks also said Goku and Black were evenly matched, but Black had Goku on the ropes and was about to kill him with that Dark Kamehameha mere seconds after Trunks stated this.

Trunks based that on the fact that Goku didn't die in several hits, unlike Vegeta who had a giant stab wound in his chest.

Goku also didn't immediately die against Frieza, but they were far from evenly matched.

[HeroR]

Goku also didn't immediately die against Frieza, but they were far from evenly matched.

That was because Freeza was slowly torturing Goku, while Black took out Vegeta quickly and efficiently. Big difference.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Goku also didn't immediately die against Frieza, but they were far from evenly matched.

That was because Freeza was slowly torturing Goku, while Black took out Vegeta quickly and efficiently. Big difference.

Black didn't give a shit about Vegeta, Goku was the one he had an obsession with.

[HeroR]

Black didn't give a shit about Vegeta, Goku was the one he had an obsession with.

Yet, he still tried to wipe out Goku quickly. He didn't mess around.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Black didn't give a shit about Vegeta, Goku was the one he had an obsession with.

Yet, he still tried to wipe out Goku quickly. He didn't mess around.

Not that quickly, judging by the power he shows later on he was holding back a good deal against Goku, he could have easily finished him before Future Zamasu showed up to stop him if he wanted to.

[HeroR]

Not that quickly, judging by the power he shows later on he was holding back a good deal against Goku, he could have easily finished him before Future Zamasu showed up to stop him if he wanted to.

He knocked Goku down and was prepared to kill him. All that happened in the span of a few seconds.

[Marlowe89]

Also, when was it first mentioned that Black could sense God ki? I don't recall him mentioning anything about it until Episode 56, but at that point he already should be significantly above the level of Super Saiyan 3 Goku because he could defend himself against Vegeta trying to pummel him in Super Saiyan Blue without all that much trouble. It was also after his first known "Zenkai" boost.

Even in Episode 49, before his first known boost, he was suggested to be stronger. Trunks claimed that the Black he fought in the future was roughly on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but then says that maybe he was even stronger than that which implies that Black may not have been using his full power against Trunks to begin with.

[Bullza]

It doesn't matter. Trunks clearly wasn't a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Black in Episode 48. No lightning, unlike all the other times he went Super Saiyan 2. Black and Trunks was no where near closed even in that first fight, especially when you look at Episode 51 when a weaker Black took out Trunks in a couple of blows.

I wouldn't rule out him using Super Saiyan 2. The appearance of lightning has been inconsistent for ages. After he turned Super Saiyan 2 he told Goku that this power hadn't worked against Black so he may have used it on Black in Episode 48.

He was easily beaten by Black in Episode 51 but that was a whole year beforehand so he clearly got a lot stronger. Maybe from a bunch of zenkai boosts or something.

Either way the point is that going by Whis' comment, Trunks should easily be far past the level required to be able to sense God Ki being as he is comparable to Goku's Super Saiyan 2 but he can't sense God Ki.

And if this was a matter of there being a two base theory so you have to above Saiyan Beyond God level to be able to sense it then Black shouldn't be able to sense God Ki but he can.

Then of course the much weaker Base Trunks can sense God Ki now. So the power level doesn't seem to play any factor at all here. This seems more like the original concept where before he couldn't sense it because he wasn't a God but now because of his new form he can sense it because he obtained God Ki.

[Marlowe89]

And if this was a matter of there being a two base theory so you have to above Saiyan Beyond God level to be able to sense it then Black shouldn't be able to sense God Ki but he can.

Nice try, but that point was already addressed in the post above yours.

Also, base Trunks being able to sense God ki doesn't contradict Whis' idea of a required power level. Once you reach the level (regardless of whether it's through a specific form) then perhaps after that point you can sense it in any form.

[Bullza]

Nice try, but that point was already addressed in the post above yours.

It addressed nothing because you were referring to a much stronger Black, the one that was more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Black could sense God Ki from the very beginning.

And again, no real need for any cocky attitude, this is just supposed to be a fun nerdy discussion.

[Marlowe89]

What do you mean it "addressed nothing"? It specifically addresses your point about whether the Black on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku (he was actually implied to be stronger than that, but whatever) was able to sense God ki.

Black could sense God Ki from the very beginning.

Again, when was that said or demonstrated in any capacity? I don't recall it, so I'm asking anyone if they do. It's a simple question, no need to whine about my attitude.

Black couldn't even sense normal ki in the beginning, so the assumption that he can sense God ki is pretty baseless when nothing implied that until Episode 56 which is well after the point he learned to sense normal ki and also well after the point that he significantly surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

[HeroR]

What do you mean it "addressed nothing"? It specifically addresses your point about Black being on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku and being able to sense God ki.

Black could sense God Ki from the very beginning.

Again, when was that said or demonstrated in any capacity? I don't recall it, so I'm asking anyone if they do. It's a simple question, no need to whine about my attitude.

Black couldn't even sense normal ki in the beginning, so the assumption that he can sense God ki is pretty baseless when nothing implied that until Episode 56 which is well after the point he learned to sense normal ki.

Although I don't believe the two base theory, it's true that we never seen Black sense God ki before they went into the future. He just should be in that range.