Basako wrote:TheUltimateNinja wrote:
No it doesn't, Goku isn't the kind of guy to do that at all. He discovered the Grade states which were much stronger than SSJ as well, but he immediately realized their flaws and decided to master the normal SSJ form instead. If it was possible to master SSJ2 in a similar way he definitely would have done so instead of using the inefficient SSJ3.
There is no if in this case, it's possible to master the SS2, we've seen it with Trunks and with Vegeta. Goku didn't discover the flaws of the SS3 untill he was alive. Also happened that Vegeta had a rage boost before than him and from the point Goku got the god forms, he focused on them. Why didn't Vegeta get the more powerfull SS2 state by training instead of by the rage boost? Well, that's how it was. Why hasn't Goku? Why did Gohan get the SS2 state first? Why was Goku the first SS? What about Goten and Trunks? This kind of questions make no sense in this point and they don't prove anything at all.
Goku's had about 8 years to train since he came back to life, 3 of those years were spent training with Vegeta. After that much time he should definitely be able to use the mastered version of SSJ2.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:TheUltimateNinja wrote:That's around the same point I stopped favoring the manga as well, the manga lost all hope of being considered superior to the anime in my eyes when it was revealed that transforming into SSBlue twice causes a Saiyan to lose over 90% of their power.
In theory I'm fine with Toyotaro making changes, but we have very different ideas on what makes a good story and hence I find a lot of his ideas bizarre, thus in practice I'd prefer he simply stuck to abridging the anime like promotional material ought to.
Why, though? Why would you waste the potential of something like that just because of the "promotional" label.
Also, I do have a problem with the 90% power rule. In both anime and manga Goku had his own transformation and ended up being 10x stronger than Vegeta, probably meaning that Toriyama's notes at least specified that much. The anime squished these things together by having a 10x Kaio-ken, while Toyotaro did the exact opposite by artificially making Vegeta 10 times weaker than Goku. Both solutions are pretty mediocre, and I can hardly blame Toyotaro for it, why the hell should Goku be 10x stronger than Vegeta regardless? However, it's hardly an issue worth dropping a product over, especially when it's only a slightly worse interpretation that the show's. But now I'm just apologizing.
I don't really care that you dropped it, I just don't get how you can care enough to do so over something that's really a non-issue. That's really the problem I have with most criticisms of this manga, they're all based on personal preferences rather than real, structural problems that it has. Having an opinion is fine, but it's non-productive to anything other than what would make a viewer happy, which isn't all that relevant to the current state of the product.
I'm not intent on wasting its potential due to the promotional label, but rather because Toyotaro tends to squander it completely.
In my opinion the Kaioken was a much better method of making Goku 10x stronger, and the manga version is greatly inferior, but that's a subjective opinion which I'll discuss at another time. The issue I have with Toyo is that his math skills and forethought are even worse than Toriyama's.
The problem I have with his implementation is that it fucks up the powerscaling really badly. It would be salvageable if he didn't have the line about Hit's timeskip only working on people equal to or below him, but thanks to that line we now have confirmation that Hit is stronger than 10% of SSBlue Vegeta.
SSJ Goku is then able to keep up with and block his hits despite Hit clearly putting a great deal of effort in. They even made a point that the reason that Hit would beat SSJ Goku wouldn't be due to superior power, but rather because Goku has to use much more stamina to counter Hit's timeskip. Sure, Hit is somewhat held back because he can't use his assassination techniques, but a simple punch would do the trick if he was massively more powerful than Goku, besides Gohan killing the Cell Jrs. characters have hardly ever died from being oneshotted by someone much stronger than them.
Honestly, being able to block all of Hit's attacks like that despite being at a huge disadvantage should place Goku at least equal to him, but let's say due to his incredible skill Goku is able to counter Hit despite only being half as strong, this would place him at 5% of SSBlue Vegeta. Any lower and Hit would just oneshot him even without the timeskip as no amount of skill can overcome a 2x power gap, every single time we've seen such a huge gap in the series it's been complete domination.
The problem arises when you consider that SSJ3 is 8x SSJ, even if you assume it's only half as strong in the manga, it would still place SSJ3 Goku at 20% of SSBlue Vegeta, and Trunks is as strong as SSJ3 Goku, thus he too would be at the same level.
Now this is the part I take issue with, Black is able to completely dominate Trunks easily, so he's at least at 25% of SSBlue Vegeta in base. Then Vegeta comes in and wrecks him with SSJ2 even after Black transforms. Let's say Black's power didn't change at all after transforming and he's still at 25%, this would place SSJ2 Vegeta at 30% of his SSBlue at least.
This creates a problem because that's triple the power he used against Hit, if his SSBlue was completely drained why not just use SSJ2? It's most likely comparable to Goku's SSGod so he'd likely be able to break Hit's timeskip as well. And this after I did a lot of lowballing, it's probably actually well over half as strong as his SSBlue.
