The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Piccolo Daimao]

You're reading too much into it. I wouldn't look at it in terms of restricting numbers (which Toriyama had done away with by then anyway). #20 saying that Yamcha would be a good source of power just means that he's still a strong guy, much stronger than ordinary Earthlings, and therefore it's worth absorbing his ki.

[hleV]

Yamcha was already over 1,000 when he started training under Kaio. He may have ended up as strong as Goku was (and it's also kinda implied) when Gero's spy robot checked him the last time. I don't see a big deal for Gero to find his power worthy to absorb.

[FNF]

But 20 said that the purpose of the absorptions was to obtain 'power';

No.20: “…Kuh…! Th-this power up greatly exceeds my estimated data…Th-this is bad. Like this, No.19 will run out of energy before he steals any power…”

I think that during a fight the Androids have to use energy reserves in order to prevent themselves from taking damage.

For example, at the beginning of the fight;

Energy- 100
Power- 100

If he's getting beaten up;

Energy- 50
Power- 100

On the brink of defeat (power starts getting eaten into);

Energy- 0
Power- 50

After absorption;

Energy- 100
Power- 120

[Fox666]

From the looks of it he did;
No.20: “At any rate, we’ll be able to obtain a large amount of energy.”
It suggests Yamcha's energy could actually make a significant difference imo.

For example lets say 20 has a power level of 200,000,000~. IMO a resting Ki of 10,000,000~ would be classified as a 'good' source to 20 if they were intending to fight Goku who they probably assumed was much, MUCH stronger.

I think you are speculation too much.

But the problem I see is that there is absolute no information about how strong Tenshinhan and the others are compared to the preceding sagas. And it's not like it really makes any difference, all we need to know is that the Artificial Humans can take them down in one hit and the humans are flabbergasted by the power of Vegeta, Piccolo and etc.

Trying to estimate how strong they are based on energy absorption really doesn't work, first because we were never told how it works. The fans normally assume the energy they absorb is "mathematically" added to their own, however there is no proof of that, and is only the easiest way for making a fan-made list of battle powers.

Besides Dr. Gero said he could defeat Vegeta if he absorbed the energy of everybody. If you really are going to take this statement serious, how much energy Dr. Gero was expecting to gain from each one of these guys to defeat Vegeta? Keep in mind that Dr. Gero had no idea of how strong Piccolo was (since he was flabbergasted after Piccolo beat the crap out of him) and only estimated him to be stronger than Tenshinhan and the others. So you cannot take Piccolo's "Super Saiyan level" in account.

[FNF]

I'm just saying how it is.
The main purpose of them absorbing people's energies is to power up from the looks of it. I don't see how Yamcha being at anything less than the 10's of millions be considered a good power up for the Androids.

Also I don't see there being a problem with Tenshinhan being absurdly strong by the Buu saga either. Gohan was treating him as the hero and all. Maybe he had powered up enough to make his Shin Kikoho somewhat useful against Buu?

[jjgp1112]

You're saying Yamcha's in the 10s of millions solely because anything different doesn't agree with your logic. Dr. Gero SAYS that he didn't expect Goku to get significantly stronger than he was in the fight with Vegeta. I don't know how many times we have to tell you this. So yes, OF COURSE, he would think Yamcha, who could be anywhere above 32,000, actually WOULD be Goku based off of his energy. It's easy to just say that Gero thought Yamcha's energy would be useful because it's better than an ordinary human's. You're looking too far into things.

[Fox666]

I'm just saying how it is.
The main purpose of them absorbing people's energies is to power up from the looks of it. I don't see how Yamcha being at anything less than the 10's of millions be considered a good power up for the Androids.

Also I don't see there being a problem with Tenshinhan being absurdly strong by the Buu saga either. Gohan was treating him as the hero and all. Maybe he had powered up enough to make his Shin Kikoho somewhat useful against Buu?

You are forgetting that, based on what he learnt from No.20 trying to absorb Piccolo's energy, if someone is supressing his power No.19 and 20 can only suck that portion of their energy.

So no matter how much you attemp to estimate Yamcha power, the energy No.20 absorbed can only be minimal or insignificant in terms of battle power. Of course we were never told that the energy equals to the battle power of whom they stole it from.

[FNF]

@jj, Why did the Androids absorb energy? It's suggested that they did so power up.

It's really that simple. I'm not looking into it too much.

@Fox, It's not suggested that they were that heavily suppressed.

After Yamcha was almost done in by the Z senshi noted that a 'large' Ki was falling and Piccolo was only partially suppressed his power before he fought 20 because 20 thought that his energy could help him beat Vegeta.

[Fox666]

A "large" Ki only means it is something noticeable beyond the normal humans.

Yamcha supressed: 5,000
Yamcha full power: 10,000 or 10 million, makes no difference

There couldn't be anyone in the world with more than 5,000 for example besides Goku and the others.

[Godo]

I agree with FNF that absorbing energy is the only way for Dr. Gero and #19 to get stronger, and that they actually use up that absorbed energy. I do, however, believe that they have a baseline of power that the absorbed power adds to, and that the baseline always exists (this is their artificial and mechanical strength).

I also believe that Dr. Gero calculated that Goku would grow quite a deal, but he didn't expect the Super Saiya-jin. If he took Goku's max powerlevel against Radditz (roughly 1000), and took his max powerlevel against Vegeta (roughly 30,000), it is a 30x growth. So he would assume that Goku would grow at least that much until they met. So for Yamcha's power to be plausible to be similar to Goku's, his power would be in the 900,000 range.
To add, Tenshinhan didn't feel inferior to Goku by much since after seeing his Super Saiya-jin form, and Dr. Gero thought that the humans' powers would be of use against Vegeta.

EXAMPLE:
Vegeta: 225,000,000
Dr. Gero: 90,000,000
Piccolo: 150,000,000
Tenshinhan: 2,000,000
Kuririn: 1,500,000
Gohan: 1,700,000

Dr Gero post absorption: 245,700,000
And I believe even more, since he would suck them dry from energy.


Of course, this isn't fact, but merely why I believe that the humans got stronger.
I don't care much about the MOUNTAIN TRAINING factor, since Dragonball has never been logical in the terms of power growth. And also, with being in the one millions range, the humans are still useless...

[hleV]

Maybe androids convert absorbed energy into something more useful for them. Like if they absorb the energy of someone with BP of 1,000,000, they may be able to convert it to some sort of artificial energy, like 10 times more powerful than the actual absorbed energy. Science can work that way, can't it?

[dbgtFO]

I also believe that Dr. Gero calculated that Goku would grow quite a deal, but he didn't expect the Super Saiya-jin. If he took Goku's max powerlevel against Radditz (roughly 1000), and took his max powerlevel against Vegeta (roughly 30,000), it is a 30x growth. So he would assume that Goku would grow at least that much until they met. So for Yamcha's power to be plausible to be similar to Goku's, his power would be in the 900,000 range.

Eh, Dr. Gero himself said, he didn't count on Goku making huge leaps in power anymore because of his age. So Gero counting on Goku receiving the same incredibly huge increase he got in the Saiyan Arc makes no sense, when he just said the direct opposite.

To add, Tenshinhan didn't feel inferior to Goku by much since after seeing his Super Saiya-jin form, and Dr. Gero thought that the humans' powers would be of use against Vegeta.

EXAMPLE:
Vegeta: 225,000,000
Dr. Gero: 90,000,000
Piccolo: 150,000,000
Tenshinhan: 2,000,000
Kuririn: 1,500,000
Gohan: 1,700,000

Dr Gero post absorption: 245,700,000
And I believe even more, since he would suck them dry from energy.

Except they were suppressed. Dr. Gero didn't know Piccolo was stronger than him and assumed the energy he got from Piccolo meant, that he'd be superior to him. Piccolo demonstrates otherwise.

Considering previous debates, I don't know, if you're being serious or not.

[Kaboom]

Obviously, there's two primary ways one could take the lines about Yamcha. Either "any super-human amount of power will be at least marginally useful," or "Yamcha is super-duper powerful enough for his energy alone to make a difference." It just depends on how much one reads into it. I, personally, find it hard to believe that Yamcha is super-duper powerful compared to anyone at this point in the series.

Anyhoo, I think we're venturing a bit too far off-topic, here.


Tullece (2nd Fruit) vs True-Form Freeza

I think this could be interesting. Tullece ate one more fruit from the Tree of Might right before Goku took him out with the movie's second Spirit Bomb attempt. It's a bit of a mystery just how stronger Tullece became that time (since, y'know, he died right after), but given how much the first fruit he ate boosted him, it may very well have been quite a lot. It could have rocketed him into the low millions for all we know.

So, this match-up will depend on how much of a power increase you think the second fruit gave Tullece. On top of that, he's allowed to use Ozaru to get 10x stronger. So basically, what percentage of his full power do you think Freeza would need to beat Tullece (if he can at all), transformed and not-transformed?

I personally think 50% power, putting him around 60 million, would be more than enough.

[dbgtFO]

Tullece (2nd Fruit) vs True-Form Freeza

Assuming the fruit(as grown on Earth) gives a consistent boost, we have Tullece getting over 10x stronger, whenever he eats one.
This is based on Tullece seemingly thinking he couldn't fight "over 30,000" Goku, but was able to overwhelm that same Goku boosted by a ten-fold Kaio-ken after taking a bite of the fruit.

If I was to make up a multiplier it'd be either 15 or 20. I'll just go with 20, so it resembles Goku(10x KK) vs. 50% Freeza.
So I have:

• Goku: 30,000+
• Tullece: Inferior to 30,000+ let's say 25,000.
• +fruit: 500,000.
• +fruit2: 10,000,000.
• +Oozaru: 100,000,000.

Freeza can manage pretty well using 10% of his power against the human one, but he's going to need 100% power to beat the transformed Tullece.

[CatouttaHell]

Tullece (2nd Fruit) vs True-Form Freeza

Initial True Form Freeza would probably one-shot IMO. I personally thinks it's more logical that every fruit gives the same amount of power instead of multiplying his current power by some amount.

But if he gets a consistent multiplier then I think he'd probably beat 100% Freeza if he transformed into a Great Ape. He'd probably be at a small disadvantage at first but would eventually win just due to Freeza's rapidly dropping power IMO.

[hleV]

SSJ Gohan vs Dabra
Felt like commenting the strength-related things that happened during their fight. Each page separately.

• Dabra is blocking Gohan's punches.
• Dabra gets hit, recovers and uses some magical fire attack from his mouth as if nothing happened.
• Gohan dodges the fire and rushes towards Dabra, who then uses some image imitation to confuse Gohan.
• Dabra is already at a good distance and shoots an attack which scares the shit out of Gohan, who is unable to dodge it.
• Gohan seemingly didn't get hurt much, but is pretty pissed. Dabra is smiling.
• Goku admits that he underestimated Dabra at first. Vegeta starts his badassery speach and Dabra takes attention to it, not noticing incoming Gohan.
• Once Dabra notices Gohan being pretty close to him, he spits on Gohan.
• Now Gohan doesn't react when Dabra gets close to him and swings with his sword.
• Gohan manages to catch the sword and break it. Gohan seems tired while Dabra is completely okay.
• Vegeta again starts the badassery speach and Dabra decides it is better to use Vegeta rather than finish Gohan himself.

[dbgtFO]

Dabra would eventually have won.

[Darkprince410]

Tullece (2nd Fruit) vs True-Form Freeza

Initial True Form Freeza would probably one-shot IMO. I personally thinks it's more logical that every fruit gives the same amount of power instead of multiplying his current power by some amount.

But if he gets a consistent multiplier then I think he'd probably beat 100% Freeza if he transformed into a Great Ape. He'd probably be at a small disadvantage at first but would eventually win just due to Freeza's rapidly dropping power IMO.

I agree. I never felt that the fruit would give a multiplicative effect but rather just an additive one in the same vein as Cell or #19/#20 absorbing ki from targets. The ki was drawn from the Earth and collected within the few fruits of the Shinseiju, so each one would have a portion of that total energy and it would only increase the battle power of whoever at it by however much ki was in the fruit. For example, if say Tullece's battle power was 35,000 and eating the first piece of fruit resulted in his battle power being 500,000, I feel eating a second piece of fruit would only boost his strength to 965,000 rather than up to around 7,100,000 - 7,200,000 as it would if it were multiplicative.

What I am wondering though is if Tullece got the full extent of the first fruit's boost, since we see him take one bite, then in the process of the ki influx bulking him up he crushed it in his hand. It doesn't make much sense to think that just one bite would be sufficient enough to take in all the energy from the fruit.

[Nineteen]

While we're on the tangent that Kaboom started with Tullece:

Tullece (2nd Fruit) vs. Lord Slug (Young)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Tullece (2nd Fruit) vs. Lord Slug (Young)

Wow, then Tullece tranforms into an Oozaru and Slug into a Giant!