"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

Honestly, this whole thing sounds to me like "If we take every single power statement hyper-literally and then nitpick it to a fine dust, we find that everything he does is complete garbage". Similar problems to what you're listing have been present during the Saiyan Arc almost 30 years ago. You're having every Dragon Ball power debate of all time in this single response. Yeah, the power scaling is totally fucked, it's been that way for a long time in every version of the series. Yes, every version, let's not pretend that this isn't just as big a problem in Toriyama's original manga, not to mention the DBS anime *cough*Kaioken*cough*Vegeta10%*cough*.

I do accept this as a legitimate criticism, but it would be like calling Stalin evil if I saw him kill someone on the street. Not exactly a powerful critique.

No power statements I used were presented in a figurative manner, though, why point out that Hit's timeskip doesn't work on people stronger than him or Vegeta lost 90% of his strength if not to inform readers of the level of power they had?

As for the anime, Rageta is indeed a problem, but I don't find the Kaioken to be contradictory to any previously established power structure.

Anyway, powerscaling is not my only criticism, but it's the most objective one I have. Most of the reasons I have for disliking the manga are subjective.

Another big thing is that the manga is now behind the anime and has been for quite some time. Toyo said he'd be ahead soon, but we don't know if he meant publication-wise or simply in terms of work done. I dislike waiting longer for what I view as an inferior version of the story.

I do acknowledge that my distaste for his work is subjective and there are some who prefer the changes he makes, but I think most would agree that this recent move of giving Black SSJ/SSJ2 even though he's already well above SSJ3 in base is quite bad.

My main question is why was it necessary to have Black transform? He was getting his ass kicked in base and upon transforming he was still getting his ass kicked, so I don't see the point.

Why not have him transform? He's in Goku's body precisely because of Goku's power, and Goku's power is tied to his transformations. It makes no sense why he was permanently in base in the anime. Stop judging the manga based on what the anime did.

Because he's already above SSJ3 in base. Transforming makes him way too OP. It hardly makes sense that SSJ2 Vegeta is so far above SSJ3 Goku in the first place, Black transforming and greatly increasing his power makes it even worse.

Goku's had about 8 years to train since he came back to life, 3 of those years were spent training with Vegeta. After that much time he should definitely be able to use the mastered version of SSJ2.

It's been about 5 years. And no, not necessarily, you don't know how it was. Goku had 3 years to train before the androids came and he didn't have a significant boost. Goten and Trunks got their SS forms without a proper training or a rage boost when they were about 7, meaning they are prodigies, but they haven't improved anything since then. Goku didn't develop a stronger SS2 in 4 years, well, neither Vegeta until he had the rage boost, the question should go for him too. Again, this kind of questions don't prove anything.

He spent 3 years in the time chamber with Vegeta, 5 + 3 = 8.

It still makes no sense that only Vegeta and Trunks have this super beefed up SSJ2 state. Goku is supposed to be a prodigy, why isn't he able to learn it after watching Vegeta use it?

Vegeta is also a prodigy why didn't he learn SSJ3? It's the exact same situation. Basako explanation above is extremely logical, Goku now has two forms superior to this Mutated SSJ2, there's no point in learning it.
Also Trunks form appears to be more like a mastered SSJ2 than what Vegeta has, their not the same.

Goku discovered it while he was dead and Gotenks was a fusion. Upon coming back to life Goku could barely use SSJ3 despite the fact that he already had some practice while dead due its heavy energy drain. It's likely that it's almost impossible for a non-fused alive Saiyan to achieve since going SSJ3 for the first time would take too much energy and place too much strain on the body, on the other hand the mastered SSJ2 is similar to FPSSJ which places barely any strain on the user.

[TKA]

Why not have him transform? He's in Goku's body precisely because of Goku's power, and Goku's power is tied to his transformations. It makes no sense why he was permanently in base in the anime. Stop judging the manga based on what the anime did.

Because he's already above SSJ3 in base. Transforming makes him way too OP. It hardly makes sense that SSJ2 Vegeta is so far above SSJ3 Goku in the first place, Black transforming and greatly increasing his power makes it even worse.

Well, two things.

1. You're using ABC logic, which is "A beat B, B beat C, therefore A can beat C." It's dubious at best. Just because Trunks was a match for SS3 Goku, and Black was better than Trunks, doesn't mean Goku would fare poorly against Black.

2. It's stated in the manga that something is up with Black right now. It's acknowledged in the medium you're critiquing, and you're choosing to ignore that. It's a serialized narrative. There will be things introduced that get explained later, especially when those things are acknowledged within the narrative.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Why not have him transform? He's in Goku's body precisely because of Goku's power, and Goku's power is tied to his transformations. It makes no sense why he was permanently in base in the anime. Stop judging the manga based on what the anime did.

Because he's already above SSJ3 in base. Transforming makes him way too OP. It hardly makes sense that SSJ2 Vegeta is so far above SSJ3 Goku in the first place, Black transforming and greatly increasing his power makes it even worse.

Well, two things.

1. You're using ABC logic, which is "A beat B, B beat C, therefore A can beat C." It's dubious at best. Just because Trunks was a match for SS3 Goku, and Black was better than Trunks, doesn't mean Goku would fare poorly against Black.

2. It's stated in the manga that something is up with Black right now. It's acknowledged in the medium you're critiquing, and you're choosing to ignore that. It's a serialized narrative. There will be things introduced that get explained later, especially when those things are acknowledged within the narrative.

1: DBZ mostly operates on ABC logic, Trunks and Goku are equals, therefore Black could thrash Goku as well.

2: I'm not ignoring it. Black's power level was confirmed to have risen even higher after transforming, even if it was a tiny multiplier like 1.5x that's still a big deal. Sure, Trunks said Black isn't as strong as he should be, but that doesn't change the fact that Black did indeed become stronger, just not to the extent that he was supposed to.

[Basako]

He spent 3 years in the time chamber with Vegeta, 5 + 3 = 8.

They were about 4 years from the Boo arc to the Beerus arc. The time chamber training was after the Beerus and RoF arc, no prove they developed the SS2 then and they already had the SSB forms.

And again, the amount of time doesn't necessarily mean they get equivalent power boosts like other times or other individuals. Goten and Trunks should be SS2 by now and they are not. Power scaling is inconsistent? Yes, but it's nothing new and this particular case is not that bad.

[Yedis]

I don't see how the manga will finish this story before the new arc starts in the Anime on 2/5(?). I do not think Black SSJR transformation, Trunks Power up, Gowasu/Shin arrival, Merged Zamasu, Vegetto, Zeno destroying the universe, and Future Trunks and Mai going back to the future can be put into one chapter.

[TheUltimateNinja]

He spent 3 years in the time chamber with Vegeta, 5 + 3 = 8.

They were about 4 years from the Boo arc to the Beerus arc. The time chamber training was after the Beerus and RoF arc, no prove they developed the SS2 then and they already had the SSB forms.

And again, the amount of time doesn't necessarily mean they get equivalent power boosts like other times or other individuals. Goten and Trunks should be SS2 by now and they are not. Power scaling is inconsistent? Yes, but it's nothing new and this particular case is not that bad.

Goten and Trunks are lazy and not really interested in fighting and growing stronger. On the other hand Goku is a hard worker who always tries to make his forms as efficient and powerful as possible. If he knows that there's a way to make SSJ2 even stronger than SSJ3 while using less energy, why wouldn't he use it?

I don't see how the manga will finish this story before the new arc starts in the Anime on 2/5(?). I do not think Black SSJR transformation, Trunks Power up, Gowasu/Shin arrival, Merged Zamasu, Vegetto, Zeno destroying the universe, and Future Trunks and Mai going back to the future can be put into one chapter.

Toyo's probably going to skip a lot, he should be able to finish this arc and start the next one in 2 chapters.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I don't see how the manga will finish this story before the new arc starts in the Anime on 2/5(?). I do not think Black SSJR transformation, Trunks Power up, Gowasu/Shin arrival, Merged Zamasu, Vegetto, Zeno destroying the universe, and Future Trunks and Mai going back to the future can be put into one chapter.

It doesn't have to get to the tournament first. The anime can easily compensate for the manga's pacing by adding extra scenes displaying fights that we may not need to see in the manga. Also, Trunks' powering up, Vegetto, and the presence of the Kaioshin aren't necessary to finish the arc. Not saying that it won't be there, but the arc could easily wrap up without those things if Toyotaro wishes. Although I believe he's going to stretch it out to Chapter 21. Meaning that the tournament will have some padding if he's going to catch up. I have heard the hypothesis thrown around that he may be drawing his chapters in advance, meaning he's ahead of the anime, even though we don't get the manga until later, but I doubt they would have teased the manga surpassing the anime if we weren't actually going to see it, so take that for what you will.

[Basako]

Goten and Trunks are lazy and not really interested in fighting and growing stronger. On the other hand Goku is a hard worker who always tries to make his forms as efficient and powerful as possible. If he knows that there's a way to make SSJ2 even stronger than SSJ3 while using less energy, why wouldn't he use it?

It seems he couldn't get it in 4 years, neither Vegeta, until his rage boost. A little inconsistent, yes, but nothing new, and not the worst thing at all. And you don't know how it was, maybe Goku was trying to fix the flaw of the ss3, why not?

Goku trained with Kami 3 years and was way below Raditz, while Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Krilin surpassed that level in less than a year.

Ok, I buy you that Goten and Trunks may have not trained in the last 5 years. But they didn't have nearly a proper training to justify obtaining the SS the first time. So, what about that? That was totally inconsistent too.

You are just being extremely nitpicking with this particular case, which is not that bad.

[Chelentano]

Why not have him transform? He's in Goku's body precisely because of Goku's power, and Goku's power is tied to his transformations. It makes no sense why he was permanently in base in the anime. Stop judging the manga based on what the anime did.

Because he's already above SSJ3 in base. Transforming makes him way too OP. It hardly makes sense that SSJ2 Vegeta is so far above SSJ3 Goku in the first place, Black transforming and greatly increasing his power makes it even worse.

Well, two things.

1. You're using ABC logic, which is "A beat B, B beat C, therefore A can beat C." It's dubious at best. Just because Trunks was a match for SS3 Goku, and Black was better than Trunks, doesn't mean Goku would fare poorly against Black.

2. It's stated in the manga that something is up with Black right now. It's acknowledged in the medium you're critiquing, and you're choosing to ignore that. It's a serialized narrative. There will be things introduced that get explained later, especially when those things are acknowledged within the narrative.

Amen to that. If everybody could use logic and not jump to conclusions. Every single month the criticism rise even before a proper translation. Let's just wait until the manga arc ends to judge.

[Abra kadabra]

I doubt Toyotaro cares one damn bit about what the fans complain about. Most of us are up leasable twats. Anyway, it's apparent to me that Toriyama did plan for him to use Super Saiyan, that's apparent from the character sheet. I think my solution handles the problem a tad better. Of course, there may be something that I overlooked, but I can't see a problem with making his untransformed state weaker in exchange for providing him with Super Saiyan power.

It isn't so much about fan complaint. It's more about that Toyotaro going out of his way to say that Trunks had a special Super Saiyan 2 form that rivaled or surpasses Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Black was stronger than even that by a nice margin. Then, he turned around and have Super Saiyan 1/2 Black overwhelmed by Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta. Better yet, why is Vegeta fighting as a Super Saiyan 2? I thought the slow burn approach was Goku's 'bad habit'. And it's odd that fans are fine with Vegeta starting slow when they call Goku an idiot for not going all out from the jump and wasting Black.

I don't think Toriyama necessarily planned to have Black used Super Saiyan since he didn't bother to draw it and it's literally a side note. It comes off as trivia and not a story point.

Anyway, maybe this will be cleared up next chapter, but as it stands now, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta really has no business being stronger than any Super Saiyan form of Black.

It still makes no sense that only Vegeta and Trunks have this super beefed up SSJ2 state. Goku is supposed to be a prodigy, why isn't he able to learn it after watching Vegeta use it?

Vegeta's was a rage boost and Trunks is a half breed that trained like his life depended on it. So let's bury this strawman fallacy you just concocted lol. Why bother having Trunks and Goku spar in a previous chapter to throw that away with the nonsense of this chapter. SSJ2 Vegeta logically should have been stomped by base Black.

[namekiansaiyan]

If the anime has a recruiting episode and many training episodes then the Manga can forget these and go ahead.

[lord turbo]

When I'm reviewing this thread it seems the main complains surround the methods Toyotaro took to his Toriyamas NONSENSICAL plot points.

1) Goku SSB x 10 SSB Vegeta
Both took different routes and its fine to have a preference. The problem is this should never have been a plot point without a real explanation. Again this is probably the most bullshit plot point I've ever seen especially if the reason behind it is just left to whoever got the luck straw to figure out a reason why. So why is this a problem? Because on order to explain this the manga and anime BOTh had to create in universe lore. Such as SSB being a calm form or multiple transformations reduce power. It's stupid they had to do that in the first place where it seems Toriyama couldn't even both to give a reason WHY Vegeta should be 10x weaker as a SSB especially when he did as just on par with Goku SSB in RoF...

I agree, Toriyama is the one to entirely blame for this due to his "Gags first, plot distant second" mentality. How are we going to get any consistency from a author who appears not to really give a damn? Toy and the anime staff shouldn't have to fill in massive blanks just because the create can't get off his lazy bum to right something more than a vague paragraphs outline that could mean anything. Toriyama needs to write this stuff in the form of a screen, therefore, both the manga and anime will flow about the same as there is less guess work, and something more substantial to follow when you have the equivelent of a script that shows all the individual details between point a to be to c instead of leaving those points entirely blank.

Well, two things.

1. You're using ABC logic, which is "A beat B, B beat C, therefore A can beat C." It's dubious at best. Just because Trunks was a match for SS3 Goku, and Black was better than Trunks, doesn't mean Goku would fare poorly against Black.

Um...Dragon Ball has been based entirely on ABC logic since day one, if it wasn't strength comparisons fall completely apart. Beating a Saibaimen is the same as beating Raditz as they both have roughly the same power, beating Cui would be the same as Beating Vegeta (Saiyan saga) as they both have roughly the same level of power, SSJ2 Trunks is a match for SSJ3 Goku, therefore, Black easily kicking the crap out of Trunks' SSJ2 means he can do the exact same thing to SSJ3.

Its stated Black can use Super Saiyan like everyone else and nothing is said different about his transformation yielding different boosts than everyone else. SSJ 1/2 Vegeta stomping a mud hole in SSJ 1/2 Black's butt means Vegeta's base is superior to Black's base which is superior to SSJ2 Trunks = SSJ3 Goku. This is a strange predicament since before this scene Vegeta and Goku are treated as equals pre-Black saga, yet only here Vegeta is shown a level above SSJ2 Trunks and SSJ3 Goku's level in his base form because? At what point did Vegeta widen the gap between himself and Goku to such an extent? Goku and Vegeta did their 3 years training after the RoF saga

He spent 3 years in the time chamber with Vegeta, 5 + 3 = 8.

They were about 4 years from the Boo arc to the Beerus arc. The time chamber training was after the Beerus and RoF arc, no prove they developed the SS2 then and they already had the SSB forms.

And again, the amount of time doesn't necessarily mean they get equivalent power boosts like other times or other individuals. Goten and Trunks should be SS2 by now and they are not. Power scaling is inconsistent? Yes, but it's nothing new and this particular case is not that bad.

Actually, Pan is 4 years old at the end of Z, meaning she was born 6 years after the end of the Buu Saga. She was already born sometime ago in RoF so Goku and Vegeta have had 6 years of training since then, additional 3 year training in the Room of Spirit and Time and if you take last week's episode of Super into account another year has passed so Goku and Vegeta have had 10 years of training in total up to this current point int he series.

I don't see how the manga will finish this story before the new arc starts in the Anime on 2/5(?). I do not think Black SSJR transformation, Trunks Power up, Gowasu/Shin arrival, Merged Zamasu, Vegetto, Zeno destroying the universe, and Future Trunks and Mai going back to the future can be put into one chapter.

Only if he condensed the hell out of everything, which would suck greatly, but it can be done in a single 40 page chapter, but it would probably be best if he just wraps everything up in two chapters instead of one, that's just enough pages to address everything accordingly before moving onto to the next saga.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I don't see how the manga will finish this story before the new arc starts in the Anime on 2/5(?). I do not think Black SSJR transformation, Trunks Power up, Gowasu/Shin arrival, Merged Zamasu, Vegetto, Zeno destroying the universe, and Future Trunks and Mai going back to the future can be put into one chapter.

Only if he condensed the hell out of everything, which would suck greatly, but it can be done in a single 40 page chapter, but it would probably be best if he just wraps everything up in two chapters instead of one, that's just enough pages to address everything accordingly before moving onto to the next saga.

Considering the fact that he just wasted nearly an entire chapter on Vegeta beating the shit out of Black we don't have to worry about him condensing anything.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, is there anything that implies that Vegeta can boost his SS2 with the whole Rageta thing from the BoG arc?

Aside from SS2 Vegeta being much stronger than SS3 Goku & U. Gohan, like back in BoG when SS2 Vegeta became much stronger than SS3 Goku & U. Gohan, nothing else. Heck, we can't even say for sure that Vegeta is a Super Saiyan 2 not just here but in the entire Super, since Black has sparks in his regular SS form, and no one ever said that Vegeta was a SS2 in any case.

[TKA]

1: DBZ mostly operates on ABC logic, Trunks and Goku are equals, therefore Black could thrash Goku as well.

So what you're saying is, you're using past instances to draw a conclusion on a situation that's completely new?

Um...Dragon Ball has been based entirely on ABC logic since day one, if it wasn't strength comparisons fall completely apart.

Strength comparisons are just that: strength comparisons. They're not "who would win" comparisons. They're numbers. Numbers (while important) aren't the sole determinant in who wins a battle, and the Saiyan arc which you quote is proof of that.

Beating a Saibaimen is the same as beating Raditz as they both have roughly the same power

And this is the problem with that kind of thinking. If Raditz fought Yamcha he would've lost because he doesn't have a self-detonation technique, and if he did, he doesn't have the personality type or the mentality to use it. The Saibaman, who is around the same power level as base Raditz, didn't lose, and instead forced a draw.

[lord turbo]

Strength comparisons are just that: strength comparisons. They're not "who would win" comparisons. They're numbers. Numbers (while important) aren't the sole determinant in who wins a battle, and the Saiyan arc which you quote is proof of that.

Strength comparisons is how Toriyama shows tiers and difference between fighters in this series, its always been like that, nothing has changed now compared to back then. Also, they are not numbers, they are statements that gives the audience information about said characters levels... Piccolo oneshotted a Saibaimen with a mouth blast meaning he can do the same thing to Raditz if he wanted too.

And this is the problem with that kind of thinking. If Raditz fought Yamcha he would've lost because he doesn't have a self-detonation technique, and if he did, he doesn't have the personality type or the mentality to use it. The Saibaman, who is around the same power level as base Raditz, didn't lose, and instead forced a draw.

Huh? Yamcha beat the Saibaimen as well, the only reason he lost was because he was blinded sided and the thing blew itself up to take them both out. The outcome would have been the same had Raditz pulled the same stunt and decided to blow himself up like Chaozu did against Nappa or Vegeta against Fat Buu. Another comparison would be weighted clothing Goku during the 23rd being stated superior to when he killed Piccolo Daimao. Tenshinhan matched that version of Goku letting us know he would wreck Piccolo Daimao without us having to see them fight to confirm this. All of Dragon Ball is like this, SSJ2 Trunks = SSJ3 Goku, this means Base Black is easily superior to Goku like he was against Trunks. We don't need to see Goku get his ass handed to him to confirm this. Hell, this very example was used during the Android saga when Trunks and Vegeta as Super Saiyans got curb stomped by the 17/18 and it was mentioned by Tenshinhan Goku isn't that much different from Trunks and Vegeta, he too would have gotten his ass beat if he was there. Goku confirms this when he recovers and mentions if Vegeta/Trunks couldn't beat this guy I wouldn't do any better thus hence the need for the Room of Spirit and Time.

This is typical battle shonen comic 101 or any fictional series that uses class/tier systems for that matter.

[Fionordequester]

Huh? Yamcha beat the Saibaimen as well, the only reason he lost was because he was blinded sided and the thing blew itself up to take them both out.

Therefore, he lost. That's still a draw.

[Simere]

Huh? Yamcha beat the Saibaimen as well, the only reason he lost was because he was blinded sided and the thing blew itself up to take them both out.

Therefore, he lost. That's still a draw.

Well done and congratulations to the Saibaman, but the fact remains that he was otherwise outclassed. DB who would win discussions are straight up affairs, not edge cases where something dramatically unusual can happen. They're pedantic enough without people pretending like they don't know who would win between Sorbet and Goku.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

1: DBZ mostly operates on ABC logic, Trunks and Goku are equals, therefore Black could thrash Goku as well.

So what you're saying is, you're using past instances to draw a conclusion on a situation that's completely new?

The best way to predict the future is by looking at the past. This is still Toriyama we're dealing with. Filtered Toriyama, but Toriyama nonetheless.

[alakazam^]

I agree, Toriyama is the one to entirely blame for this due to his "Gags first, plot distant second" mentality. How are we going to get any consistency from a author who appears not to really give a damn? Toy and the anime staff shouldn't have to fill in massive blanks just because the create can't get off his lazy bum to right something more than a vague paragraphs outline that could mean anything. Toriyama needs to write this stuff in the form of a screen, therefore, both the manga and anime will flow about the same as there is less guess work, and something more substantial to follow when you have the equivelent of a script that shows all the individual details between point a to be to c instead of leaving those points entirely blank.

So, is blaming Toriyama the cool thing to do now? Because I'm pretty sure none of us have access to his outline so we can't say how lazy he was with it or not. I'd imagine a lazy person wouldn't take that much time to write something like we know he did, and this was with him having doubts about continuing to be involved. We can also argue that he writes some dialogues so how barebones the outline is is anyone's guess.

Actually, Pan is 4 years old at the end of Z, meaning she was born 6 years after the end of the Buu Saga. She was already born sometime ago in RoF so Goku and Vegeta have had 6 years of training since then, additional 3 year training in the Room of Spirit and Time and if you take last week's episode of Super into account another year has passed so Goku and Vegeta have had 10 years of training in total up to this current point int he series.

Super never said where it was placed in the timeline. Rough drafts for episode 1 and Oob mention in the Champa arc point to it being placed not long after Boo.