Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[emperior]

This is my tier list using numbers. I might have made some mistake so if you spot some or you disagree with something in this list please tell me


Zeno - Infinite
Daishinkan - 30,000
Vados - 15,050
Whis - 15,000
Beerus - 10,000
Champa - 9,950
SSB Vegetto - 9,500
Merged Zamasu - 9,500
Spirit Trunks - 9,500
SSB Goku KKx10 - 9,200
Hit - ?
SSB Vegeta - 940
SSR Black - 930
SSB Goku - 920
Super Trunks - 900
Golden Freezer - 650
SSG Goku - 600
Goku Black - 420
Enraged SS2 Vegeta - 405
SS3 Goku - 400
SS2 Trunks (Trained) - 400
Future Zamasu - 350
Mystic Gohan - 320
SS3 Gotenks - 300
SS2 Goku - 300
SS2 Trunks - 300
Fat Buu - 200
Zamasu - 180
Magetta - 160
SS1 Goku - 150
SS1 Vegeta - 150
SS1 Cabba - 150
Freezer Final Form - 65
Frost Final Form - 60
Base Vegeta - 50
Base Goku - 50
Base Trunks - 50
Base Cabba - 50
SS1 Gohan - 55
SS1 Goten - 50
SS1 Kid Trunks - 50
Piccolo - 45
Botamo - 20
Base Gohan - 15
Base Goten - 10
Base Kid Trunks - 10

Good, tho the gap between Base saiyans and DBZ era fighters is massive.

Basically, since u started with 30 k, anyone below Ultimate Gohan and ssj3 Gotenks shouldnt even be on that list.

While it might annoy some, that is how it is. Current base Trunks/Goku/Vegeta>>> Ultimate Gohan, ssj3 Gotenks and so forth.

I can't accept the fact U6 warriors would be stronger tha Buu, Gotenks and Mystic Gohan. Also would make no sense for Trunks to be so massively OP. Sure he's stronger than Fat Buu but not stronger than SS3 Goku who shouldn't be so much stronger than he was against Buu.

My list can definitely improve and I will, I'd like to also add some DBZ PLs to make it better.

[Bullza]

Yeah it should go something like this really

Base Goku/Vegeta > Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta > Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks and so on.

So as odd as it is characters like Cabba and Magetta should be far above the likes of all the characters in Z except for possibly Super Vegito. Though they were supposed to be the strongest in the universe so it might not be that odd I guess.

[Dbzk1999]

Just thought about something in regard to trunks and him getting stronger (before his transformation). Anyone think it might be a callback to what toriyama had said regarding Saiyans? I remember he said this while he was mentioning 6/10/15

I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.

Obviously this probably also isn't the case (considering it was bout 2 years ago) but do y'all think it's worth something to consider?

[HeroR]

I can't accept the fact U6 warriors would be stronger tha Buu, Gotenks and Mystic Gohan. Also would make no sense for Trunks to be so massively OP. Sure he's stronger than Fat Buu but not stronger than SS3 Goku who shouldn't be so much stronger than he was against Buu.

My list can definitely improve and I will, I'd like to also add some DBZ PLs to make it better.

Base form Vegeta no sell hits from Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, while Vegeta said that Cabba's base was equal to him and Cabba actually managed to get hits in. If we go by the anime, anyone who can so much as harm base from Vegeta and Goku are well above the Buu Saga.

[buutenks]

I can't accept the fact U6 warriors would be stronger tha Buu, Gotenks and Mystic Gohan. Also would make no sense for Trunks to be so massively OP. Sure he's stronger than Fat Buu but not stronger than SS3 Goku who shouldn't be so much stronger than he was against Buu.

My list can definitely improve and I will, I'd like to also add some DBZ PLs to make it better.

But the u6 warriors are the strongest in their respective universe.

Plus, current ssj3 Goku is above ssg. So he is massively above any form of Buu

[Cipher]

Hot take/my general viewing experience in broad terms:

Post-Universe 6 arc/New Super material

Limitlessly powerful in a way that falls outside traditional concepts of ki-based strength
Zenou

Maybe they go here idk
Grand Priest
Vados
Whis

I see no reason these guys shouldn't be stronger than Beerus and Champa
Vegetto
Merged Zamasu
Goku with varying levels of Kaio-Ken (for the brief moment he can use it; anime-only; mostly well-justified as being off-limits)

Beerus and Champa
Beerus
And Champa

Blue-ish, in roughly descending order
Vegeta (SSB; as of the end of the Trunks arc)
Goku Black (SSR)
Goku (SSB)
Hit (anime)
Golden Freeza
"Super" Trunks (???)
Goku (Super Saiyan God)
Hit (manga)
(idk; those last three could go in any order, really)

Fit right in among Boo-arc fighters or lower
Ultimate Gohan in here somewhere (which is maybe the power he taps into as a Super Saiyan 2 in Super? Could see it either way)
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks (is he weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku by the start of the series? Could be, I guess)
Engraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta (so maybe Gotenks an Gohan have been surpassed, since Beerus takes note of him?)
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (manga)
Boo
Zamasu
(Perfect Cell roughly in here for reference)
Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta
Frost
Piccolo
Megetta
(Namek arc Freeza roughly in here for reference)
Base Goku and Vegeta
Cabba
Botamo
etc., etc.

Pre-Universe 6 arc/Resurrection F (movie and TV adaptation)
Goku and Vegeta are stronger than all non-Beerus/Whis/Freeza characters in base form, with a further power-up in Super Saiyan Blue; look for a guest reappearance from this approach in the Super Human Water filler arc

[Bullza]

Possibly one of the most bizarre things power level wise and not many people being this up but....why was Base Black so strong?

Zamasu took the current Goku's body but he was far stronger than the current Base Goku. If he's stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku then you could say he's tens of times stronger than him. Why? In the anime he was supposed to get stronger when beaten even though nothing like that has ever happened to any Saiyan so that's confusing itself but you could say that perhaps Black got so strong from these boosts.

But who could have hurt him in the first place for him to get them? Not Trunks he couldn't even touch him the first time they fought.

In the manga that whole zenkai boost thing he has probably won't be a thing but even there he's still stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Why isn't Base Black just as strong as Base Goku? It doesn't make any sense.

[HeroR]

Possibly one of the most bizarre things power level wise and not many people being this up but....why was Base Black so strong?

Zamasu took the current Goku's body but he was far stronger than the current Base Goku. If he's stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku then you could say he's tens of times stronger than him. Why? In the anime he was supposed to get stronger when beaten even though nothing like that has ever happened to any Saiyan so that's confusing itself but you could say that perhaps Black got so strong from these boosts.

But who could have hurt him in the first place for him to get them? Not Trunks he couldn't even touch him the first time they fought.

In the manga that whole zenkai boost thing he has probably won't be a thing but even there he's still stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Why isn't Base Black just as strong as Base Goku? It doesn't make any sense.

It was current Goku from one year into the future. So naturally that Goku would be stronger than our Goku who is a year younger. Why was that Goku so much stronger than our Goku in just a year, who knows, but a lot can happened in a year.

[Cipher]

Possibly one of the most bizarre things power level wise and not many people being this up but....why was Base Black so strong?

Zamasu took the current Goku's body but he was far stronger than the current Base Goku. If he's stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku then you could say he's tens of times stronger than him. Why? In the anime he was supposed to get stronger when beaten even though nothing like that has ever happened to any Saiyan so that's confusing itself but you could say that perhaps Black got so strong from these boosts.

But who could have hurt him in the first place for him to get them? Not Trunks he couldn't even touch him the first time they fought.

In the manga that whole zenkai boost thing he has probably won't be a thing but even there he's still stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Why isn't Base Black just as strong as Base Goku? It doesn't make any sense.

No explanation is really given, so I just accepted that something about his soul/energy, as a prodigal Kaioshin fighter, produced a naturally greater power in Goku's body, even before the power-ups he obtains during the arc.

Basically the same reason Black's ki still feels like Zamasu's and his godly Super Saiyan form is the different, much stronger Rosé, as opposed to Blue.

[Legion]

Zeno

Grand Priest
Whis/Vados
Beerus
Champa

Vegetto
Merged Zamasu/Spirit Trunks
Hit?
Goku ssjbkkx10
Black after power up
Vegeta ssjb
Goku ssjb
Trunks
etc.

About this "mist Zamasu"...i don't know .-. I think that the real problem is that he's immortal, not that is stronger than people like Grand priest, Whis etc. In the episode, he failed, again, to kill Goku etc and even Gowasu, that he's protected himself with a barrier.

[Marlowe89]

Hot take/my general viewing experience in broad terms:

That's more or less my take on the power scale as well. I just kinda stuffed Vegito, Merged Zamasu, Kaioken Goku, etc. within an "unknown" tier since the series didn't provide us with much indication of where those characters stand in relation to other God tier characters who had little to no involvement in the arc. Kaioken Goku in particular is interesting because the series did flirt with the possibility that he could be stronger than Beerus, considering A.) Goku said he was confident enough in the technique to save it for Beerus, B.) Beerus appeared to be somewhat nervous and Whis teased him about it, and C.) Champa showed clear signs of being intimidated when Goku and Hit glanced at him.

Then you have characters like Merged Zamasu and Vegito who are even stronger than that, which ultimately leads me to the conclusion that there's no reason they shouldn't at least be in Beerus' general tier.

[Freezerbaby]

I have one question before ranking anything, is the goku/vegeta using/not using god ki in their base forms during the tournament and against final for freeza issue solved? because I do think that if 1st form freeza one punched ssj1 gohan, there´s no way a final form freeza couldn´t stand up to a base form goku if the later weren´t taping into god ki or something, bearing in mind that on the previous arc, Beerus clearly stated that base goku couldn´t have defeated Namek Freeza.

On the other hand, I believe that Goku and vegeta used their "raw" base forms in the tournament keeping in mind How Piccolo was about to beat down frost hand´t it been for the poison needle frost has.

[Bullza]

I have one question before ranking anything, is the goku/vegeta using/not using god ki in their base forms during the tournament and against final for freeza issue solved?

No not at all, people still have very divided opinions on the whole thing. They don't have God Ki in Base when fighting these people because they can still sense them but they've still got that huge level of power either from absorbing God and or training. I think at this point most people have moved away from this whole "two bases" idea and by that I mean that they fought Frieza and Gotenks at one level but then Cabba and Magetta at a significantly lower level.

I think people have just realised that they are supposed to be that strong in Base now. What's really dividing people is that there are a lot of people who believe Super Saiyan forms > Base > Super Saiyan God and there's also a lot of people who think Super Saiyan God > Super Saiyan forms > Base. There's arguments for both sides.

[Cipher]

There are also people, myself included, who believe they simply changed approaches between the Freeza arc and the new material.

So Ressurection F and its TV adaptation are written with those super-strong bases, but as of the Universe 6 tournament, they're back at their previous levels.

[Bullza]

Previous levels as in Pre Beerus levels? What about Base Future Trunks seemingly being more powerful than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks?

[HeroR]

There are also people, myself included, who believe they simply changed approaches between the Freeza arc and the new material.

So Ressurection F and its TV adaptation are written with those super-strong bases, but as of the Universe 6 tournament, they're back at their previous levels.

But that goes against episodes afterwards where we see Goku fight Beerus in his base form, even if Beerus was holding back not to blow his cover, and Copy-Vegeta no-selling hits from Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. We could just say it's Toei, but they also made the tv adaptions of the movies that support the strong base form. U6 also doesn't show their base forms going back to previous levels since that is only an assumption based on Piccolo's performance against a weakened and tired Frost.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I still been wondering about Zamasu/Future Zamasu's power.

I think Future Zamasu is somewhere around Super Saiyan Blue tier. Present Zamasu, probably somewhere around Super Saiyan Goku after merging with the God Power. That makes the most sense to me. I've seen some people put him around Cell's level and that seems way too weak.

[Cipher]

There are also people, myself included, who believe they simply changed approaches between the Freeza arc and the new material.

So Ressurection F and its TV adaptation are written with those super-strong bases, but as of the Universe 6 tournament, they're back at their previous levels.

But that goes against episodes afterwards where we see Goku fight Beerus in his base form, even if Beerus was holding back not to blow his cover, and Copy-Vegeta no-selling hits from Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. We could just say it's Toei, but they also made the tv adaptions of the movies that support the strong base form. U6 also doesn't show their base forms going back to previous levels since that is only an assumption based on Piccolo's performance against a weakened and tired Frost.

Toei was notorious for their lack of coordination early in the series (find Super's explanation for the Pilaf gang's youth). It's entirely possible they adapted the movie arcs without realizing Toriyama was writing the new material differently, leading to oddities in some of the filler episodes.

What really locked that reading in for me was Toyotaro's consistent approach that characters weren't substantially stronger outside of their god forms, and Trunks sparring more or less evenly with Goku's corresponding forms, while still being shocked by their godly power once he feels it. That also keeps Zamasu around an original-run Super Saiyan 2, which is still prodigal for a Kaioshin (remember, that level of power put the cast at the very top of the universe outside Beerus and Boo during the Boo arc), but not so strong that Beerus could have jumped over there for a challenge if he was truly impressed by Super Saiyan God.

Retroactively applying that approach to the Universe 6 arc -- the part of it Toriyama actually wrote -- makes more sense of it as well. I suspect the change was due to one or the other party between Toei and Toriyama wanting to have weaker forms available to Goku and Vegeta to add some visual flair, and the lack of consistency was due to Toei not getting the memo/really noticing Toriyama's changed approach. Which Toyotaro, as a single-author and super-fan, did, and adapted to.

[Hugo Boss]

Fit right in among Boo-arc fighters or lower
Ultimate Gohan in here somewhere (which is maybe the power he taps into as a Super Saiyan 2 in Super? Could see it either way)
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks (is he weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku by the start of the series? Could be, I guess)
Engraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta (so maybe Gotenks an Gohan have been surpassed, since Beerus takes note of him?)
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (manga)
Boo
Zamasu
(Perfect Cell roughly in here for reference)
Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta
Frost
Piccolo
Megetta
(Namek arc Freeza roughly in here for reference)
Base Goku and Vegeta
Cabba
Botamo
etc., etc.

I think Magetta deserves a little more credit. Even if he isn't quite as strong as a god he can at least overwhelm someone at Super Saiyan Vegeta's level. Vegeta only managed to win with just Super Saiyan because Magetta lost his fighting spirit.

[Cipher]

It's honestly hard to tell with Magetta, and fairly inconsequential. He feels like someone whose powers don't adhere to Dragon Ball's traditional concepts of "strength." He's incredibly durable, and good enough to hang in against Super Saiyan Vegeta, so maybe he should be higher.