"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[MisteryOne]

Of course that made sense in the anime. Vegeta meant Black couldn't reach the limits Goku can, with that body. After some training, Vegeta surpassed him, after all, when doing the same to Goku is much more difficult.

The thing is, some people want to believe the manga makes more sense, even when it doesn't, like the ridiculous reasoning for Zamasu to go after Goku. SS Vegeta beating Black this easily is very wrong already and pure Vegeta fanservice.

The reasoning for Zamasu to go after Goku makes sense, as I have just explained in the announcement thread. If you think it doesn't make sense then you don't remember the manga details at all.Hell, right know it could even be possible that Goku Black is not present Zamasu.

SS Vegeta beating Black is not any worse that Goku Black being able to tank Blue Vegeta attacks or Goku damaging Merged Zamasu with his Kame Hame Ha.Or Vegeta being able to defeat Black by training six months, specially when in order to have that worked you need to invent a headcanon were Rose is a small multiplier, and that wasn't Toriyama's intention since Rose is pretty much Black's version of SSBlue.
Let's not even talk about Trunk's Gendikama sword (which in order to work forces you to create a new headcanon where Blue Vegito made Zamasu weaker, something that was never said in the show) AND his Super form. Is not that Trunks fanservice? And since the Blue Kaioken implies that Beerus used less of 10% to fight Goku SSG, the fact that he used so much power to tank Rageta's Garlick Gun doesn't make any sense unless you use headcanons like «Beerus was lying» when we have never told so.

The manga makes more sense. The anime is indeed an overall better product (because of storytelling, menancing villains and visuals),but if we are speaking about logic they are not even comprable. Black and Zamasu are extremely incompetent in the anime, Mai's fake death in the anime is stupid, and the anime time loop doesn't explain a lot of things like how Black knows Vegeta if Present Zamasu only saw a clip of Blue Goku fighting Hit.

[HeroR]

Of course that made sense in the anime. Vegeta meant Black couldn't reach the limits Goku can, with that body. After some training, Vegeta surpassed him, after all, when doing the same to Goku is much more difficult.

The thing is, some people want to believe the manga makes more sense, even when it doesn't, like the ridiculous reasoning for Zamasu to go after Goku. SS Vegeta beating Black this easily is very wrong already and pure Vegeta fanservice.

The reasoning for Zamasu to go after Goku makes sense, as I have just explained in the announcement thread. If you think it doesn't make sense then you don't remember the manga details at all.Hell, right know it could even be possible that Goku Black is not present Zamasu.

SS Vegeta beating Black is not any worse that Goku Black being able to tank Blue Vegeta attacks or Goku damaging Merged Zamasu with his Kame Hame Ha.Or Vegeta being able to defeat Black by training six months, specially when in order to have that worked you need to invent a headcanon were Rose is a small multiplier, and that wasn't Toriyama's intention since Rose is pretty much Black's version of SSBlue.
Let's not even talk about Trunk's Gendikama sword (which in order to work forces you to create a new headcanon where Blue Vegito made Zamasu weaker, something that was never said in the show) AND his Super form. Is not that Trunks fanservice? And since the Blue Kaioken implies that Beerus used less of 10% to fight Goku SSG, the fact that he used so much power to tank Rageta's Garlick Gun doesn't make any sense unless you use headcanons like «Beerus was lying» when we have never told so.

The manga makes more sense. The anime is indeed an overall better product (because of storytelling, menancing villains and visuals),but if we are speaking about logic they are not even comprable. Black and Zamasu are extremely incompetent in the anime, Mai's fake death in the anime is stupid, and the anime time loop doesn't explain a lot of things like how Black knows Vegeta if Present Zamasu only saw a clip of Blue Goku fighting Hit.

The manga doesn't really make more sense, it's more like it's a simpler story to follow so people can understand it easier.

It was said in the show that Merged Zamasu was getting weaker as he fought Vegetto. Did you ignore the entire part with the Supreme Kais saying Merged Zamasu's body was falling apart? And Beerus only said he used 10% of his power against Vegeta, that doesn't mean he needed to, just like 50% Freeza didn't need to used that much power to stomp Goku before he reached Super Saiyan.

[MisteryOne]

Of course that made sense in the anime. Vegeta meant Black couldn't reach the limits Goku can, with that body. After some training, Vegeta surpassed him, after all, when doing the same to Goku is much more difficult.

The thing is, some people want to believe the manga makes more sense, even when it doesn't, like the ridiculous reasoning for Zamasu to go after Goku. SS Vegeta beating Black this easily is very wrong already and pure Vegeta fanservice.

The reasoning for Zamasu to go after Goku makes sense, as I have just explained in the announcement thread. If you think it doesn't make sense then you don't remember the manga details at all.Hell, right know it could even be possible that Goku Black is not present Zamasu.

SS Vegeta beating Black is not any worse that Goku Black being able to tank Blue Vegeta attacks or Goku damaging Merged Zamasu with his Kame Hame Ha.Or Vegeta being able to defeat Black by training six months, specially when in order to have that worked you need to invent a headcanon were Rose is a small multiplier, and that wasn't Toriyama's intention since Rose is pretty much Black's version of SSBlue.
Let's not even talk about Trunk's Gendikama sword (which in order to work forces you to create a new headcanon where Blue Vegito made Zamasu weaker, something that was never said in the show) AND his Super form. Is not that Trunks fanservice? And since the Blue Kaioken implies that Beerus used less of 10% to fight Goku SSG, the fact that he used so much power to tank Rageta's Garlick Gun doesn't make any sense unless you use headcanons like «Beerus was lying» when we have never told so.

The manga makes more sense. The anime is indeed an overall better product (because of storytelling, menancing villains and visuals),but if we are speaking about logic they are not even comprable. Black and Zamasu are extremely incompetent in the anime, Mai's fake death in the anime is stupid, and the anime time loop doesn't explain a lot of things like how Black knows Vegeta if Present Zamasu only saw a clip of Blue Goku fighting Hit.

The manga doesn't really make more sense, it's more like it's a simpler story to follow so people can understand it easier.

It was said in the show that Merged Zamasu was getting weaker as he fought Vegetto. Did you ignore the entire part with the Supreme Kais saying Merged Zamasu's body was falling apart? And Beerus only said he used 10% of his power against Vegeta, that doesn't mean he needed to, just like 50% Freeza didn't need to used that much power to stomp Goku before he reached Super Saiyan.

No, is not more simple. Is just that it makes sense. The time loop doesn't make sense, just like it doesn't make sense that Black knows Vegeta.Beerus being the one who separated timelines doesn't make sense.And as I said, Mai's fake dead is stupid in the anime.Simple as that. In the manga Black is way more efficient. In the manga he destroys cities, in the anime he is outclased by a smoke granade. Also, how is it more simple if there are people who doesn't get why Zamasu became Black in the manga? (If he is Black). The anime never explained SS Rose either. And Trunks Super asspull form.

I didn't miss anything. You are the one creating a headcanon. Gowasu said Zamasu's body was melting because of his internal contradictions. They NEVER said he was getting weaker. In fact, Merged Zamasu used his Light of Justice to power up.He was just becoming deformed because he couldn't heal himself as Vegeta said. Check the episode again.Also, if Merged Zamasu was getting weaker, instead of powering up, why he was surpassed by a Goku Kame Hame Ha but then was able to keep up against Vegito? Completely nonsense. And even if he was getting weaker, how did Trunks made a Gendikama without noticing it at first? How did he use the energy of the people without asking for it? We saw that there were barely a few survivors around the world. Definetly not enough energy to allow Trunks to kill Zamasu. And during the battle with Vegito Zamasu bulked up. How does that makes him weaker? If anything, slower. Hell, even before the Gendikama, Trunks was able to fight against Merged Zamasu in a sword fight...

Why on hell would Beerus use 10% of his power when Goku Black Rose being weaker than Beerus and Blue Kaioken being weaker than him as well implies that Beerus pretty much only used 2-9% of his power against Goku SSG? Again, pure headcanon. Freezea used his 50% to quicklu defeat Goku, no to tank it. Completely different thing. If Beerus needs 10% to tank Rageta, Rageta was stronger than a SS Blue.

The anime is definetly more entertainment but it doesn't make more sense that the manga.

[HeroR]

No, is not more simple. Is just that it makes sense. The time loop doesn't make sense, just like it doesn't make sense that Black knows Vegeta.Beerus being the one who separated timelines doesn't make sense.And as I said, Mai's fake dead is stupid in the anime.Simple as that. In the manga Black is way more efficient. In the manga he destroys cities, in the anime he is outclased by a smoke granade. Also, how is it more simple if there are people who doesn't get why Zamasu became Black in the manga? (If he is Black). The anime never explained SS Rose either. And Trunks Super asspull form.

I didn't miss anything. You are the one creating a headcanon. Gowasu said Zamasu's body was melting because of his internal contradictions. They NEVER said he was getting weaker. In fact, Merged Zamasu used his Light of Justice to power up.He was just becoming deformed because he couldn't heal himself as Vegeta said. Check the episode again.Also, if Merged Zamasu was getting weaker, instead of powering up, why he was surpassed by a Goku Kame Hame Ha but then was able to keep up against Vegito? Completely nonsense. And even if he was getting weaker, how did Trunks made a Gendikama without noticing it at first? How did he use the energy of the people without asking for it? We saw that there were barely a few survivors around the world. Definetly not enough energy to allow Trunks to kill Zamasu. And during the battle with Vegito Zamasu bulked up. How does that makes him weaker? If anything, slower. Hell, even before the Gendikama, Trunks was able to fight against Merged Zamasu in a sword fight...

Why on hell would Beerus use 10% of his power when Goku Black Rose being weaker than Beerus and Blue Kaioken being weaker than him as well implies that Beerus pretty much only used 2-9% of his power against Goku SSG? Again, pure headcanon. Freezea used his 50% to quicklu defeat Goku, no to tank it. Completely different thing. If Beerus needs 10% to tank Rageta, Rageta was stronger than a SS Blue.

The anime is definetly more entertainment but it doesn't make more sense that the manga.

Black could have easily learned about Vegeta from Zuno and a stable time loop does make sense. It's just isn't as easy to under than saying, 'Black came from a different timeline' or 'Trunks created a new timeline when he returned to the past'. Which is why I said the manga is easier to understand, not that it makes more sense.

Mai's fake death is stupid period. How did Mai survive so long under the rubble in the manga? Black isn't more efficient in the manga. He's less since he kept Trunks alive for his amusement instead of killing him. And Black destroyed cities too. He wiped half the population in one day according to Trunks. The manga also haven't explained Rose yet, so how can you even make the comparison.

That isn't headcanon. Gowasu outright said that Merged Zamasu was falling apart while he was fighting Vegetto. It's right there. Also, the Light of Judgment happened after Gowasu made his statement and before Merged Zamasu fought Vegeta. Trunks also took the remaining energy from Goku and Vegeta, not just the survivors. And the manga hasn't even gotten to the finale of the arc, so it isn't like we can do a comparison to see which makes more sense. Finally, Trunks got knocked around by Merged Zamasu and nearly killed, until Merged Zamasu started running his mouth, again, and triggered Trunks.

Why are we comparing 10% of Beerus' power to Black? The two never fought and Beerus only said he used 10% against Rage Vegeta, not that he needed to used that much. Also, Freeza didn't take out Goku quickly using half of his power. He slowly tortured Goku and even said he was going to keep Goku alive for as long as possible. He overkilled to make Goku suffer. And again, Beerus never said or even implied he needed 10% of his power to tank Vegeta's attack. That is you assuming he had to.

[Gig]

Not to enter in the detail of "which one makes more sense" (although at the moment it looks like to me the manga is a bit more coherent/logic -except for the decision of swapping body with somone Zamasu never met-... the arc in the manga is not finished yet... we can't tell yet)....

... I just wanted to say that Black may simply have seen Vegeta in the U6 tournament footage, since Vegeta was there, too. He may have re-watched the whole tournament off-screen, to learn more about Goku, as far as we know.

[Noah]

... I just wanted to say that Black may simply have seen Vegeta in the U6 tournament footage, since Vegeta was there, too. He may have re-watched the whole tournament off-screen, to learn more about Goku, as far as we know.

Then why he asked Vegeta which Era he came from? He should know (if he watched the tournament) that Vegeta was from that time.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Of course that made sense in the anime. Vegeta meant Black couldn't reach the limits Goku can, with that body.

Problem with that is, he literally surpassed Goku 5 minutes later. Also, he was beyond their abilities for the majority of the arc. So no, it doesn't make sense. And that's without mentioning thenonsensical Super-Zenkai's that only happen to Goku Black. That's nonsense, although I did appreciate what they were trying to do.

[Gig]

... I just wanted to say that Black may simply have seen Vegeta in the U6 tournament footage, since Vegeta was there, too. He may have re-watched the whole tournament off-screen, to learn more about Goku, as far as we know.

Then why he asked Vegeta which Era he came from? He should know (if he watched the tournament) that Vegeta was from that time.

I do not remember that question, where was it?
It sounds also strange due to Goku Black having visited their era when the time ring brought him to the past...

[Will]

... I just wanted to say that Black may simply have seen Vegeta in the U6 tournament footage, since Vegeta was there, too. He may have re-watched the whole tournament off-screen, to learn more about Goku, as far as we know.

Then why he asked Vegeta which Era he came from? He should know (if he watched the tournament) that Vegeta was from that time.

I do not remember that question, where was it?
It sounds also strange due to Goku Black having visited their era when the time ring brought him to the past...

Black said that in the mangas, in the last chapter.

[Nejishiki]

I do not remember that question, where was it?
It sounds also strange due to Goku Black having visited their era when the time ring brought him to the past...

Vegeta: "I see…"
Vegeta: "It figures you’d be too much for Trunks to handle."
Goku Black: "To think that you'd be this strong…"
Goku Black: "Which era did you come from?!"
Vegeta: "Hmph, work it out for yourself."
Vegeta: "By the way, compared to that Kakarotto over there, your Kakarotto's body must be from even further in the future."
Vegeta: "…So can you can go Blue too?"
Goku Black: "........."

Concerning his question, he was likely curious due to his ignorance of Future Trunks time traveling. Goku Black entered a parallel world where the future he wished for Goku's body shouldn't come to be. Clearly, in his his perspective, Future Trunks accomplished alternate timeline visits himself. It wasn't information he was aware of until Goku and Vegeta arrived. Previously, Future Trunks "disappeared" without transparent reason.

[TKA]

The best way to predict the future is by looking at the past. This is still Toriyama we're dealing with. Filtered Toriyama, but Toriyama nonetheless.

Still, it's rather asinine to be kicking up a storm about something we know the writer intends to address. It's a serialized, sequential story. Part of indulging in such a story is the understanding that you'll wait between installments and all your questions won't be answered right out the gate.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Anyone notice that Toyotaro made a blooper with his potara shading this chapter? For the record, shaded potara are the real thing, unshaded are the fake ones, like Zamas had. Midway through the chapter, Goku Blacks' potara changes from shaded to unshaded. Think it'll be corrected for the home release like some of the other details have been? A shame we won't find out till late next year.

[Gig]

Then why he asked Vegeta which Era he came from? He should know (if he watched the tournament) that Vegeta was from that time.

So you were talking about manga also in that sentence. Well, from Godtube Zamasu/Black may know that the Vegeta from that timeline can go blue, but unless he checked all timelines for this detail, he doesn't know if there are more Vegeta versions capable of doing it in other timelines.

In the manga, Black did not made the trip to the past line in the anime, so he had no clue about where (when) do Goku and Vegeta come from.

[CaroKami]

I see that quite a few people didn't like Goku Black getting his shit kicked in by Vegeta, but personally, I loved it. The anime made Vegeta look like a punk in the first fight, and that just didn't sit right with me.

Here, Vegeta looks strong, and while Goku Black looks weak now, he's more than likely gonna get the upper hand in the next chapter when he transforms. Win-win for the both of them.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I see that quite a few people didn't like Goku Black getting his shit kicked in by Vegeta, but personally, I loved it. The anime made Vegeta look like a punk in the first fight, and that just didn't sit right with me.

Here, Vegeta looks strong, and while Goku Black looks weak now, he's more than likely gonna get the upper hand in the next chapter when he transforms. Win-win for the both of them.

But Vegeta should not be able to do this considering that Black is stronger than SSJ3 Goku in base, let alone transformed. The only explanation is that he's using the mutation SSJ2 he used against Beerus, but that was just a temporary boost.

[CaroKami]

But Vegeta should not be able to do this considering that Black is stronger than SSJ3 Goku in base, let alone transformed. The only explanation is that he's using the mutation SSJ2 he used against Beerus, but that was just a temporary boost.

I don't care much for the lower Super Saiyan forms since they're all weaker than Super Saiyan Blue anyways. The writers/Toyotaro can do whatever they want with those forms and it wouldn't really bother me.

[TheUltimateNinja]

But Vegeta should not be able to do this considering that Black is stronger than SSJ3 Goku in base, let alone transformed. The only explanation is that he's using the mutation SSJ2 he used against Beerus, but that was just a temporary boost.

I don't care much for the lower Super Saiyan forms since they're all weaker than Super Saiyan Blue anyways. The writers/Toyotaro can do whatever they want with those forms and it wouldn't really bother me.

SSJ2 Vegeta thrashing Black like this would make him well over 10x as strong as Goku at least unless there's something funky going on with his SSJ2 multiplier.

[CaroKami]

I'm sure Toyotaro is just trying to build to Super Saiyan Blue, which is why he had him go Super Saiyan instead.

[kinisking]

I'd like to formally apologize to many in this thread. I'd previously said that there was distinct bias for the anime that lead people to forgive things in the manga that they wouldn't forgive in the anime. After people reacting to the last two chapters, I've changed my mindset. I admit when I'm wrong, and I think this is one of those situations.

[Abra kadabra]

I'm sure Toyotaro is just trying to build to Super Saiyan Blue, which is why he had him go Super Saiyan instead.

Vegeta going SSB straight away would have made way more sense. He's built up SSB in the manga enough. having ssj2 black getting curbstomped by ssj2 Vegeta is asinine since base Black is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks and SSJ3 Goku