Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Chickenchaser]

How much you guys think Tao improved from the last time he fought Goku to the time he was in 23rd TB?

Imo;

Tao Pai Pai: 110 ('Official')

Cyborg Tao: 180
-Super Dodonpa: 210

[DBZ Macky]

How much you guys think Tao improved from the last time he fought Goku to the time he was in 23rd TB?

Imo;

Tao Pai Pai: 110 ('Official')

Cyborg Tao: 180
-Super Dodonpa: 210

That Organic!Tao power level isn't actually confirmed to be official, and is listed among other "fake" power levels in the Kanzenshuu battle power guide.

Though it still doesn't contradict anything, so I use it anyways. Just like some other numbers on that page. They're pretty well made, it seems that's why they were confused with official levels for a long time.

[ZombieVito]

How much you guys think Tao improved from the last time he fought Goku to the time he was in 23rd TB?

Imo;

Tao Pai Pai: 110 ('Official')

Cyborg Tao: 180
-Super Dodonpa: 210

That Organic!Tao power level isn't actually confirmed to be official, and is listed among other "fake" power levels in the Kanzenshuu battle power guide.

Though it still doesn't contradict anything, so I use it anyways. Just like some other numbers on that page. They're pretty well made, it seems that's why they were confused with official levels for a long time.

It's the other way around. The 210 one is official while the 110 one is listed as fake.

[Chickenchaser]

Imo;

Tao Pai Pai: 110 ('Official')

Cyborg Tao: 180
-Super Dodonpa: 210

That Organic!Tao power level isn't actually confirmed to be official, and is listed among other "fake" power levels in the Kanzenshuu battle power guide.

Though it still doesn't contradict anything, so I use it anyways. Just like some other numbers on that page. They're pretty well made, it seems that's why they were confused with official levels for a long time.

It's the other way around. The 210 one is official while the 110 one is listed as fake.

I made a mistake of cyborg tao: (210 Official), Tao Pai Pai: (110 Fake) thanks for correcting me.

I Based on this list; http://www.kanzenshuu.com/guides/battle ... png?x48035 i don't know where i took that battle power (110) is official.

[apex_pretador]

How much you guys think Tao improved from the last time he fought Goku to the time he was in 23rd TB?

These are my numbers:
Tao Pai Pai - 49
Cyborg Tao - 140

I reached these numbers by power-scaling everything based on the numbers given in the Raditz arc. Note that I enforce the "half power" line from Piccolo Daimao

Tao gets twice as strong as 22nd TB Goku, seems fine for a Cyborg from an already powerful warrior. The progression seems in line with the gains other characters got. Everyone except Chiaotzu and Chi-Chi would defeat him without much trouble.

Basically this, except in my lists, Organic Tao pai pai is about 80. Cyborg Tao Pai Pai would be about even with Drum, who beat Tenshinhan with no effort. Cyborg Tao is on that level, despite still being weaker than Daimao

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How much you guys think Tao improved from the last time he fought Goku to the time he was in 23rd TB?

My last list had him about 20 times stronger, from 240 to 5,000.

[Noah]

My last list had him about 20 times stronger, from 240 to 5,000.

What the f***? How he became stronger than Nappa?

[dragonball0900]

How much you guys think Tao improved from the last time he fought Goku to the time he was in 23rd TB?

My last list had him about 20 times stronger, from 240 to 5,000.

Unless you have Raditz and all the Z characters higher than the 10,000s as your own original numbers then that seems good. Although Tao in reality would never get to 5,000 at all since that's well over Raditz, and a bit above Nappa's base strenght.

[DanielSSJ]

Pretty sure that GreatSaiyaman123's numbers are based on a different scale than the scouter's battle powers.

[DBZ Macky]

I never really understood why some people use a different scale for the OG Dragon Ball. There's really no need IMO, when the "half-power" statement can be easily hand-waved by assuming that his Bakurikimaha was Piccolo's full power and was ~2x stronger than whatever his base power was (that he used against Goku). The "many times" statement can be easily justified by it being just a 2.5x or even a ~2.0x increase. A little above double still counts as "several times".

My numbers:
Goku (Karin training)= 60 (Pre) -> 125 (Post, greater than 2x gain i.e. "several times")
Old Piccolo Daimao= 220 (Base) -> 444 (Bakurikimaha, greater than 2x power, i.e. "not even using half-power" in base)
Ma Junior= 390 (Base) -> 890 (That thing he used against Goku's Super Kamehameha, more than 2x stronger than Old Daimao, i.e. "several times" stronger)

[DanielSSJ]

I never really understood why some people use a different scale for the OG Dragon Ball. There's really no need IMO, when the "half-power" statement can be easily hand-waved by assuming that his Bakurikimaha was Piccolo's full power and was ~2x stronger than whatever his base power was (that he used against Goku). The "many times" statement can be easily justified by it being just a 2.5x or even a ~2.0x increase. A little above double still counts as "several times".

My numbers:
Goku (Karin training)= 60 (Pre) -> 125 (Post, greater than 2x gain i.e. "several times")
Old Piccolo Daimao= 220 (Base) -> 444 (Bakurikimaha, greater than 2x power, i.e. "not even using half-power" in base)
Ma Junior= 390 (Base) -> 890 (That thing he used against Goku's Super Kamehameha, more than 2x stronger than Old Daimao, i.e. "several times" stronger)

You don't even have to take "I've become many times stronger" statements that literally. I prefer to take such statements as referring to overall ability, skill and techniques included alongside raw power.

The only power statement that I do take literally is Piccolo's "half power" statement, and that's easy to handwave by construing his "full power" to be some forced increase ala Roshi's Max Power or the Super Saiyan Grades, or taking his amplified blasts as his full power.

[LightBing]

I never really understood why some people use a different scale for the OG Dragon Ball. There's really no need IMO, when the "half-power" statement can be easily hand-waved by assuming that his Bakurikimaha was Piccolo's full power and was ~2x stronger than whatever his base power was (that he used against Goku). The "many times" statement can be easily justified by it being just a 2.5x or even a ~2.0x increase. A little above double still counts as "several times".

My numbers:
Goku (Karin training)= 60 (Pre) -> 125 (Post, greater than 2x gain i.e. "several times")
Old Piccolo Daimao= 220 (Base) -> 444 (Bakurikimaha, greater than 2x power, i.e. "not even using half-power" in base)
Ma Junior= 390 (Base) -> 890 (That thing he used against Goku's Super Kamehameha, more than 2x stronger than Old Daimao, i.e. "several times" stronger)

You don't even have to take "I've become many times stronger" statements that literally. I prefer to take such statements as referring to overall ability, skill and techniques included alongside raw power.

The only power statement that I do take literally is Piccolo's "half power" statement, and that's easy to handwave by construing his "full power" to be some forced increase ala Roshi's Max Power or the Super Saiyan Grades, or taking his amplified blasts as his full power.

When you guys throw around the word hand-wave to tackle these questions, it gets difficult to take it seriously.

I agree with you regarding the "many times" lines, although not because it's a combination of factors which water downs the statement.
The best argument that can be made is that we are thinking in Battle Powers terms, an actual system. The characters are not and the author certainly didn't intended it as such.

When you work out and evaluate your gains, what you feel doesn't correlate in numbers with how faster you can run in kilometres per hour, or how many more kilograms you can lift.
Unless these people have scouter's at home, we should ignore their statements in regards to Battle Powers. They only mean, x character got much stronger than before.

The "half power" is different. It's exact and there's the significance of such statements throughout Dragon Ball: Freeza in the Namek Arc, Future Android #17 in Trunks Story, Goku in the Cell Arc.
I disagree with your solution regarding this bit.
Piccolo Daimao didn't show us any "Augmented Form" and he had the chance, taking his amplified blasts into account is kinda dishonest. I don't remember any character ever applying that reasoning to their "full power", Goku doesn't think his full power is the strongest Kamehameha he can lash out or the best Genki Dama he can gather.
If you find me a couple of examples in the manga, I might have to think about it but I don't think there's even one. When characters talk about techniques, they refer to them separably.

I don't understand why people just don't do a straight list instead of looking for short-cuts or blatantly ignoring statements without offering reasons. Seriously, I only had two problems when I made my Pre-Raditz list: assuming Master Roshi kept getting stronger after the 22nd TB meaning he wasn't at 139 then (ironically recent material supports my assumption) and Tenshinhan barely getting any stronger between the 23rd TB and Raditz's arrival.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Pretty sure that GreatSaiyaman123's numbers are based on a different scale than the scouter's battle powers.

This. My time in other forums radically changed my views on Battle Powers.

Though "Many times" statement are not PL related, the "Less than half" quote and the overhelming gaps like half dead Piccolo >>> everybody screw up things for the Raditz battle levels, and the levels itself can't correlate with the 23rd Budokai ones.

Btw, @LightBing already did a pretty good job explaining the "Less than half" quote.

[dragonball0900]

Okay. I'm going to post random lists of power levels here from time to time. This time I chose the Cell Games Arc and the Early Buu Arc:

[spoiler]Goku - 60,000,000
SSJ - 3,000,000,000

Gohan - 70,000,000
SSJ - 3,500,000,000
SSJ2 - 7,000,000,000

Vegeta - 36,000,000
SSJ - 1,800,000,000

Future Trunks - 34,000,000
SSJ - 1,700,000,000

Piccolo - 1,200,000,000

Cell Jr - 2,000,000,000

Perfect Cell - 3,400,000,000
100% Perfect Cell - 4,500,000,000
Buff Perfect Cell - 5,000,000,000
Super Perfect Cell - 7,000,000,000[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Goku - 90,000,000
SSJ - 4,500,000,000
SSJ2 - 9,000,000,000
SSJ3 - 36,000,000,000

Vegeta - 72,000,000
SSJ - 3,600,000,000
SSJ2 - 7,200,000,000

Gohan - 65,000,000
SSJ - 3,250,000,000
SSJ2 - 6,500,000,000

Supreme Kai - 2,700,000,000

Kibito - 60,000,000

Piccolo - 1,800,000,000

Android 18 - 350,000,000

Pui Pui - 100,000

Yakon - 100,000,000

Dabura - 3,400,000,000[/spoiler]
What do you think of them? If there's anything wrong don't be afraid to ask.

[Noah]

After Fat Boo split with in two (Good and Evil Boo) would you guys think he still had power enough defeat three SSJ2 warriors at once?

[DBZ Macky]

After Fat Boo split with in two (Good and Evil Boo) would you guys think he still had power enough defeat three SSJ2 warriors at once?

I doubt he would've not been defeated if Goku and Vegeta fought him together as SS2s.

After splitting, he should be weaker than them, but not by so much that he can't put up a better fight against Kid Buu because of his superior stamina.

[Kaboom]

After Fat Boo split with in two (Good and Evil Boo) would you guys think he still had power enough defeat three SSJ2 warriors at once?

With my numbers, the powers of each "team" actually end up being roughly equal. But considering how Boo works, then if the SS2s still had to fight both Boos (Innocent and Pure Evil) at once, they may not win. But one at a time, or just Pure Evil Boo alone? Yeah, I think they could take him now.

SS2 Gohan: 6
SS2 Goku: 9
SS2 Vegeta: 9

Fat Boo: 15
-- Innocent: 6
-- Pure Evil: 9

[dragonball0900]

After Fat Boo split with in two (Good and Evil Boo) would you guys think he still had power enough defeat three SSJ2 warriors at once?

Considering that Good Boo is able to fight better than SSJ2 Vegeta against Kid Buu, Boo would have to be stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta. However, I don't know if he surpasses SSJ2 Goku, so I'd say that Good Boo wouldn't stand a chance against 3 SSJ2s at once. Evill Boo might have a slight chance though.

[DBZ Macky]

After Fat Boo split with in two (Good and Evil Boo) would you guys think he still had power enough defeat three SSJ2 warriors at once?

With my numbers, the powers of each "team" actually end up being roughly equal. But considering how Boo works, then if the SS2s still had to fight both Boos (Innocent and Pure Evil) at once, they may not win. But one at a time, or just Pure Evil Boo alone? Yeah, I think they could take him now.

SS2 Gohan: 6
SS2 Goku: 9
SS2 Vegeta: 9

Fat Boo: 15
-- Innocent: 6
-- Pure Evil: 9

6,9,9 vs 6,9 and they may not win? I don't think Buu's stamina and regen matters that much at equal battle powers. Have characters with better regen and stamina ever beaten characters equally strong as them?

Perfect Cell had Freeza's durability and his regen was way superior to Piccolo's. Yet, even after being "powered up like Son Gohan", he still lost to a Gohan who was stated to have lost over half of his power.
If it's not specified that he can't power up from anger, Gohan might even take Pure Evil Boo on his own. Didn't Goku say he was stronger than anyone else in the world if he was able to use his true power?

I have a hard time believing Goku and Vegeta would lose to the bubblegum guy at equal battle powers. His whole thing was that he had haxx regeneration in addition to him being way stronger than everyone else.

Goku can probably fight together with Gohan for greater efficiency. He's a powerhouse and would probably beat Pure Evil Boo with Gohan easily, or take out the Good one by himself.

I don't see why Vegeta won't figure out Buu's regen and finish at least one of them out with a Final Flash when he's not absolutely outclassed like he was in the original fight.

I might be biased though. Do you really think Buu's haxx are that useful?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

After Fat Boo split with in two (Good and Evil Boo) would you guys think he still had power enough defeat three SSJ2 warriors at once?

I think they give him some trouble, but Buu still wins due to regen.

Good Buu: 1,080
SSjin 2 Goku, Vegeta: 900
SSjin 2 Gohan: 562.5