Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Merged Zamasu (Halo) should be above Hit and SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 due to both Vegeta and Supreme Kai saying that they'd never felt power like it and they had both felt Goku and Hits power at the tournament.

If you put those two at the bottom then that's the same order that I would have.

[Saiyan007]

Not too mention Goku flat out saying they can't beat him without fusion

[TheUltimateNinja]

Merged Zamasu (Halo) should be above Hit and SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 due to both Vegeta and Supreme Kai saying that they'd never felt power like it and they had both felt Goku and Hits power at the tournament.

If you put those two at the bottom then that's the same order that I would have.

That line is probably going to make more sense in the manga where Goku never used Kaioken, but I don't buy it in the anime version.

[Cipher]

Quick question. In the months I was gone, did the manga (or anime for that matter) ever clarify the age-old debate about what was going on with Saiyan base forms?

The manga's always been clear on the matter, their base forms aren't much stronger than before but they are capable of using SSG. The anime implies that they can switch between normal and God ki in base without any visual indication, but some interpret it as 1 very strong base.

The anime hasn't "implied" anything like that since the Feeza arc and the filler after the Universe 6 tournament. No indication of a super-strong base has popped up in any of the Toriyama-outlined material unique to Super.

Isn't the manga still I continuity with ROF, which showed their base forms being much stronger?

The manga skipped the Freeza arc altogether.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Quick question. In the months I was gone, did the manga (or anime for that matter) ever clarify the age-old debate about what was going on with Saiyan base forms?

The manga's always been clear on the matter, their base forms aren't much stronger than before but they are capable of using SSG. The anime implies that they can switch between normal and God ki in base without any visual indication, but some interpret it as 1 very strong base.

The anime hasn't "implied" anything like that since the Feeza arc and the filler after the Universe 6 tournament. No indication of a super-strong base has popped up in any of the Toriyama-outlined material unique to Super.

Those parts are canon to the anime, though, we can't just ignore them. And their bases in the anime are definitely much stronger than in the manga.

[Cipher]

Those parts are canon to the anime, though, we can't just ignore them.

Depends on whether we're trying to play the game of getting everything to line up in-universe, which, to be fair, I understand is usually the purpose of these threads, or just trying to suss out what Super's approach is in a meta-sense.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Those parts are canon to the anime, though, we can't just ignore them.

Depends on whether we're trying to play the game of getting everything to line up in-universe, which, to be fair, I understand is usually the purpose of these threads, or just trying to suss out what Super's approach is in a meta-sense.

The characters have referred to events that occurred in the Potafeu filler in the latest arc, so they also acknowledge it as having happened.

[Cipher]

The characters have referred to events that occurred in the Potafeu filler in the latest arc, so they also acknowledge it as having happened.

In-universe, yes, those events happened. In the real world, it's likely they were not considered in Toriyama's outline for the story or even Toei's adaptation of that outline in a broader sense.

I don't believe for a second Toei has a series bible for power-scaling, so both a shift in approach and odd hangers-on to super-strong bases like the Super Human Water arc are easily possible with Toei's rushed schedule and poor communication.

I mean, hey, Yamcha beats Olibu in the Z anime, and Goku and Vegeta later look in on the aftermath of that worried about calling Boo away from the afterlife. It's also referenced by other characters, in a sense, but we realize it isn't by the main author and isn't going to be part of the main logic of he series moving forward. No one's struggling to make sense of an anime-specific power list to take that into account.

No clue why the same out-of-universe reasoning can't occur here. If we just want a handle on how Super is generally approaching its powers, anyway. If we're trying to fit everything together in the strictest in-universe sense, that's different. That's also why I feel like I'm speaking a different language whenever Inpop into these threads, I guess.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The characters have referred to events that occurred in the Potafeu filler in the latest arc, so they also acknowledge it as having happened.

In-universe, yes, those events happened. In the real world, it's likely they were not considered in Toriyama's outline for the story or even Toei's adaptation of that outline in a broader sense.

I don't believe for a second Toei has a series bible for power-scaling, so both a shift in approach and odd hangers-on to super-strong bases like the Super Human Water arc are easily possible with Toei's rushed schedule and poor communication.

I mean, hey, Yamcha beats Olibu in the Z anime, and Goku and Vegeta later look in on the aftermath of that worried about calling Boo away from the afterlife. It's also referenced by other characters, in a sense, but we realize it isn't by the main author and isn't going to be part of the main logic of he series moving forward. No one's struggling to make sense of an anime-specific power list to take that into account.

No clue why the same out-of-universe reasoning can't occur here. If we just want a handle on how Super is generally approaching its powers, anyway. If we're trying to fit everything together in the strictest in-universe sense, that's different. That's also why I feel like I'm speaking a different language whenever Inpop into these threads, I guess.

Base Goku being able to block attacks from Hit surely points to their bases being far more powerful than meets the eye, though.

[Bullza]

Plus even prior to the Tournament they both did 50,000 full body push ups in a weighted suit that puts more pressure on the body than the Gravity Machine which they'd been shown to use as Super Saiyans.

[RandomGuy96]

The manga skipped the Freeza arc altogether.

I mean that those events still must have happened in the manga's continuity, albeit off-screen.

[Hugo Boss]

I believe that Goku using the kaio-ken out of nowehere, even if still below fused Zamasu, would be enough to surprise the latter and break the hold but when Zamasu is beaten in a beam struggle against a much weaker opponent(s), despite not being damaged, I got the impression that fused Zamasu got weaker or his power became erratic (in other words, his attacks would randomly come out either very weak or very strong, his defense would drop or raise, etc., essentially his ki was out of control) is once his mutation started manifesting. Does anyone share this idea?

I think this is precisely the case. He seemed to have trouble controlling his power most of the time, which would explain he being overpowered by Goku and going toe-to-toe with Vegetto.

Merged Zamasu (Halo) should be above Hit and SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 due to both Vegeta and Supreme Kai saying that they'd never felt power like it and they had both felt Goku and Hits power at the tournament.

Wasn't Black already stronger than Hit?

I don't believe for a second Toei has a series bible for power-scaling, so both a shift in approach and odd hangers-on to super-strong bases like the Super Human Water arc are easily possible with Toei's rushed schedule and poor communication.

I mean, hey, Yamcha beats Olibu in the Z anime, and Goku and Vegeta later look in on the aftermath of that worried about calling Boo away from the afterlife. It's also referenced by other characters, in a sense, but we realize it isn't by the main author and isn't going to be part of the main logic of he series moving forward. No one's struggling to make sense of an anime-specific power list to take that into account.

No clue why the same out-of-universe reasoning can't occur here. If we just want a handle on how Super is generally approaching its powers, anyway. If we're trying to fit everything together in the strictest in-universe sense, that's different. That's also why I feel like I'm speaking a different language whenever Inpop into these threads, I guess.

No, I understand what you says. Sometimes I'm under the impression the powers depend on the mini context the characters are inserted. And when I say mini context it can be an episode or nothing more than three episodes. As a fan of Saint Seiya too, I'm used to not care too much about power inconsistences, since it mostly depends on who is the focus in the respective mini context.

Plus even prior to the Tournament they both did 50,000 full body push ups in a weighted suit that puts more pressure on the body than the Gravity Machine which they'd been shown to use as Super Saiyans.

To be fair, Vegeta is showed training in his normal form most of the time in the Gravity Chamber. In DBS Chapter #18, he was training with Future Trunks in their normal forms.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Merged Zamasu (Halo) should be above Hit and SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 due to both Vegeta and Supreme Kai saying that they'd never felt power like it and they had both felt Goku and Hits power at the tournament.

Wasn't Black already stronger than Hit?

Vegeta and Goku would be dead if that were the case, Hit could take Kaioken x10 Goku whereas Black has trouble with regular SSBlue Goku.

[Bullza]

Hit was already weaker than SSJB Goku back during the U6 saga. Black is much more powerful though Hit's timeskip would probably allow him to put up a good fight like he did when Goku used Kaioken.

Under Tournament rules he'd likely lose in the end.

[HeroR]

Hit was already weaker than SSJB Goku back during the U6 saga. Black is much more powerful though Hit's timeskip would probably allow him to put up a good fight like he did when Goku used Kaioken.

Under Tournament rules he'd likely lose in the end.

Exactly. People keep mistaking Hit's Time-Skip and techniques for speed and power. In terms of raw power and speed, he was below Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. Until Hit improved, Goku was kicking his ass and would have won right there. Hit being able to pause people and striking vital points is what makes him dangerous.

Plus, Goku is overall stronger than he was during U6, so Black is fighting a stronger version of Goku than Hit. Also, Vegeta and Goku did nearly die to Black several times. They only lived because they retreated twice.

[Hugo Boss]

Merged Zamasu (Halo) should be above Hit and SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 due to both Vegeta and Supreme Kai saying that they'd never felt power like it and they had both felt Goku and Hits power at the tournament.

Wasn't Black already stronger than Hit?

Vegeta and Goku would be dead if that were the case, Hit could take Kaioken x10 Goku whereas Black has trouble with regular SSBlue Goku.

Yes, but Goku and Vegeta became much stronger than they were in the tournament, didn't they? I think they could definetely beat Hit with or without tokitobashi.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Wasn't Black already stronger than Hit?

Vegeta and Goku would be dead if that were the case, Hit could take Kaioken x10 Goku whereas Black has trouble with regular SSBlue Goku.

Yes, but Goku and Vegeta became much stronger than they were in the tournament, didn't they? I think they could definetely beat Hit with or without tokitobashi.

Not 10x stronger, it hasn't even been that long since the tournament.

[Bullza]

Hit couldn't beat Black in a Tournament fight. He may have been able to hold his own against Goku but he was much weaker, one punch from Goku did a lot more damage than a bunch from Hit. Even if SSJR Black were weaker than SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 (and I'd say he was) his power isn't unstable like Goku's so wouldn't be limited for time.

Also Hit beating on Black would only make him stronger but then perhaps the longer he fought the more Hits timeskip would improve.

If Hit has grown stronger since then, improved his time skip and could use his killing techniques then he'd have a real shot at beating him though.

[Zamasu55]

Merged Zamasu (Halo) should be above Hit and SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 due to both Vegeta and Supreme Kai saying that they'd never felt power like it and they had both felt Goku and Hits power at the tournament.

If you put those two at the bottom then that's the same order that I would have.

Even Ssj Rose Black Goku, as the Toei dude said in an interview, is well above both Hit and SsjB Kkx10 Goku.

[HeroR]

Merged Zamasu (Halo) should be above Hit and SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 due to both Vegeta and Supreme Kai saying that they'd never felt power like it and they had both felt Goku and Hits power at the tournament.

If you put those two at the bottom then that's the same order that I would have.

Even Ssj Rose Black Goku, as the Toei dude said in an interview, is well above both Hit and SsjB Kkx10 Goku.

He just said Black is the strongest after Beerus. It's hard to say if he counts the Kaioken since it's a power up technique and not Goku's actually power. Plus, it's still unstable.

The problem is that people inflate Hit's power since he took attacks from Kaioken x10 Goku, ignoring that Hit was overwhelmed by Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku before his time skip improved. The only thing shown is that Hit was durable.