Accuracy of the Dragonbox colors?

[bkev]

Hi everyone,
bkev here with a debate that has only been brought up recently. According to kei17, the dragonbox colors are faded and inaccurate. Since kei is an old-school Japanese collector, he has several VHS from before dbox remasters; while VHS isn't the best quality-wise, I don't believe colors dissipate on them. MV suggested there be another topic, so I brought it up.

Supports of kei17's idea:
-The green sky, compared to blue during the Vegeta fight.
-The often high levels of red in the color. Take for example Goku's gi in certain scenes.
-Lack of yellow coloring
-Note Piccolo's skintone in kei17's screenshots, and compare them to each of the sources. Here's the best comparison, LD to DBox (although it's worth noting that it appears there was edge enhancement on the LD)

-This is TOEi we're talking about (okay, maybe this isn't a very valid point...)
-Current reruns on channels such as Animax show colors that are different than the DBox, probably taken from earlier masters. Also worth noting are funimation's digi-betas and film remasters; while they have modified them themselves, I don't belive that it was to THAT big a degree that green would become blue.
-Kai. Yes, they are re-coloring the series here; but, it's interesting how different it is compared to the dragonbox. I'd imagine that if the dragonbox were truly the end-all dragonball sourc,e the colors would remain closer than they have seemed to so far.
-Hokuto no Ken, which received a similar treatment, has been once again remastered with different colors. This was remastered using "master film", which wasn't too specific. But I'd imagine they'd use the best prints available.

Things that refute his idea:
-He's going off of VHS...
-Supposedly, the dragonbox was created by remastering generation 0 film prints which were in cold storage and much less likely to deteriorate.
-Memory isn't always the best indicator of how something used to be.
-

Further evidence could hopefully be provided on both sides of the argument by those with more knowledge on the subject. Happy debating!

[SSj_Rambo]

Exactly what release did that screenshot come from?

And are trying to debate whether or not the Dragon Boxes have a different color palette than the original, or whether or not the colors in the Dragon Box are a faded version of the original color?

Because the colors in the Dragon Boxes are definitely different, but that is because they were touched up by Pony Canyon. The colors are not simply a faded version of the original, they are different because they tried to make the colors look as good as possible for the Dragon Box release, which in some cases is better than the original.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Since kei is an old-school Japanese collector, he has several VHS from before dbox remasters; while VHS isn't the best quality-wise, I don't believe colors dissipate on them.

I mentioned this in the other topic, but VHS most certainly does degrade in terms of color (and various other things) over time. That's one of the main reasons people were so willing to transition to DVD, because it would consistently look the same throughout the life of the disc. Also, the fidelity of VHS is horrible to begin with, in addition to numerous X-Factors (different recording modes, number of heads on the VCR making the recording, etc.).

-The green sky, compared to blue during the Vegeta fight.

Compared to what blue sky? By kei17's own admission, the sky does have a tinge of green even in his recorded copies. It was never a solid blue (as the sky is supposed to be indicative of the fight taking place at twilight).

-The often high levels of red in the color. Take for example Goku's gi (direct link to Daizex, I can re-up elsewhere if requested)

That's an unadulterated image I just snapped from the DragonBox. Notice that Mike probably didn't use that as his source (it looks more like he cleaned up a FUNi screenshot).

-Lack of yellow coloring

I honestly am not sure how this supports either side, not to mention there's plenty of yellow (it's not day glow, but it's yellow).



That's just one obvious example. Then there's Gohan's shirt in the above shot as well. The show in general used a fairly subdued color palette.

-Current reruns on channels such as Animax show colors that are different than the DBox, probably taken from earlier masters. Also worth noting are funimation's digi-betas and film remasters; while they have modified them themselves, I don't belive that it was to THAT big a degree that green would become blue.

Take a picture, any picture, sometime and open it in Photoshop or a comparable image editor. Play with the color saturation and balance. You'll see how FUNimation did what they did. Once I reinstall Photoshop on my PC, I'll be happy to show examples.

-Kai. Yes, they are re-coloring the series here; but, it's interesting how different it is compared to the dragonbox. I'd imagine that if the dragonbox were truly the end-all dragonball sourc,e the colors would remain closer than they have seemed to so far.

Not at all. The DragonBox was intended to showcase what the original animation looked like, not to provide an "end-all source" necessarily. If it was intended to do that, I'm sure they would have done little things like fix the Nappa and Vegeta appearances wherein their colors were completely wrong.

I'm interested to see what people bring to the table here. It's an interesting subject if approached correctly. Personally, I've always felt the DragonBoxes were reference level just about for the series as originally animated, but if proof can be shown it won't change my enjoyment necessarily but it could change my stance on how accurate the releases are.

-Corey

[bkev]

I'm happy to admit where I was wrong, what I tried to do in the opening of the thread was to take information that has been given by both sides here. I'm really not the most tech-savvy guy you'll meet, and a lot of this stuff confuses me. I just thought this would be an interesting topic of discussion for those in the better-know.

[MajinVejitaXV]

I'm happy to admit where I was wrong, what I tried to do in the opening of the thread was to take information that has been given by both sides here. I'm really not the most tech-savvy guy you'll meet, and a lot of this stuff confuses me. I just thought this would be an interesting topic of discussion for those in the better-know.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing you, I'm just showing some counterpoints to what you said.

-Corey

[bkev]

Oh no, I got that. And I appreciate that you were able to articulately express your points; something other forums could take a good example from.

[kei17]

Since I don't have enough time to reply you carefully, I just put some images taken from my VHS.






Laserdisc Footage Added:

[BrollysKin]

I can't look at these anymore! I need my hyper-saturated skin tones! FUNIMATION!

[Chuquita]

Those VHS screens look so awesome and historical. X3

Thank you kei17!

[MajinVejitaXV]

Honestly, aside from the blurriness of the VHS (which happens, since VHS is only 330×480), the only things I see in terms of difference could be attributed to a number of things, none of which conclusively point to the DragonBoxes being "aged colors" just yet. The image is noticeably darker, which combined with the "red push" could be a sign of age from either the broadcast master that was used or your VHS copy, or both.

Any other ideas? I'm honestly enjoying re-educating myself as we debate this.

-Corey

Edit: I'll pull the DBZ Movie 3 screens tomorrow unless someone beats me to it.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Laserdisc Footage Added:

Now those interest me. I see signs of what appears to be Edge Enhancement. Could it be that, much like FUNimation, Toei (err, these shots are from Toei's laserdisc release, right?) tried to touch up their releases by playing with contrast, color saturation and filtering? The colors do look a bit washed out, like the contrast was played around with.

Interesting. Of course, I realize that leaves me open to the counter of "Well, if they did it before, who's saying they couldn't have done it on the DragonBoxes?" I suppose the real test would be to find cels of these scenes and compare the colors. I could swear we've had some posted before that matched the DragonBoxes, but I could be mistaken.

Anyone who can help with pictures of cels from these scenes?

-Corey

[kei17]

Keep in mind the colors might be slightly different because of the overlays used to put the credits on each episode.

You are right in that point. But see the text-less openings on releases in other countries. They just look like the normal openings in the episodes. They're taken from early films. You may say that they have deteriorated as well, but films can lose its colours faster than tapes in some cases.

Did they use the generation zero prints on the original box? I admittedly know nothing about Hokuto No Ken (aside from the basic premise), so I wouldn't know what the production values were on the original set.

I don't know about that "generation zero prints", but all I can say is Hokuto No Ken was made and released by Toei, and treated in a similar way.

I think we have compared the DragonBoxes to source materials (animation cels, for instance) and found they were accurate.

*I do not own any cels, but an anime-comic of Goku vs Vegeta. You can see many scans of cels/backgrounds in that book, and the sky is not green. I will scan it later if you would like. Colours of other scans from the films are adjusted to the cels in that book.
edited

Honestly, aside from the blurriness of the VHS (which happens, since VHS is only 330×480), the only things I see in terms of difference could be attributed to a number of things, none of which conclusively point to the DragonBoxes being "aged colors" just yet. The image is noticeably darker, which combined with the "red push" could be a sign of age from either the broadcast master that was used or your VHS copy, or both.

So what's about the green sky on DBOX? I can't think that there can be any animator who paint the sky green and Goku's face such red.


Anyway, all I want to say is that I haven't seen any DB airings/releases that look like DBOXes' colours in Japan and they're not the colours we are used to see. I can't stop hating and can hardly accept them as a Japanese fan.

[Yi Xing Long]

I suppose the real test would be to find cels of these scenes and compare the colors. I could swear we've had some posted before that matched the DragonBoxes, but I could be mistaken.

Anyone who can help with pictures of cels from these scenes?

-Corey

I don't have any cels myself, but I did save some nice images of someone else's cels that they put up on their site (sorry, I don't remember where). Most of them are too large to post, but there is a thumbnail of another below this gigantic one (which you can click to see the full version). The backgrounds may not be correct though, since often only the animation cels are sold.




I just found a few more cels (though much lower in resolution) that might be useful in this situation:

[Captain Awesome]

Interesting topic.

Would scans of the screencaps from the TV animation Daizenshuu help?, as far as I can tell they've used the original cels for their "screen captures" since they are incredibly crisp and clear.

[kei17]

I found some cels of these scenes and compared them with my VHS footage.







Note that I'm not saying that the original airing look the "original cels' colours". I'm talking about the "master films' colours". You know, the colours had already changed through filming and DB series have never been released in such original cels' colours. But at least, I assume that these caps from my VHS must be closer to the cels than DBOX's. (I haven't got the Japanese single DVD includes these scenes so I cannot check it by myself)

[kei17]

Now those interest me. I see signs of what appears to be Edge Enhancement. Could it be that, much like FUNimation, Toei (err, these shots are from Toei's laserdisc release, right?) tried to touch up their releases by playing with contrast, color saturation and filtering? The colors do look a bit washed out, like the contrast was played around with.

These shots are from Toei's laserdisc release. Played with Sony HIL-C2EX and output by direct composite. All DB movies were released on LD and VHS in these colours in Japan and we've been used to see them.

[SHINOBI-03]

I couldn't hold myself... from using the black brick

[bkev]

Looks like the cels match the VHS to me...

[kei17]

Original Cels








My VHS (Directly taped off Fuji TV's original airing)






Toei's Laserdisc




Dragon Box






Laserdisc Karaoke




German Footage




French Single DVD





FUNimation's Single DVD





FUNimation's Orange Bricks





Sorry for not taking shots from the same scenes. I only have random volumes of each releases. And, the shots from DBOX I put here is from an episode in bad colour, so some episodes can have better colour than these.

[Smooth Criminal]

I agree -- The DBOX colors are definitely off in comparison to the original airings and the cels posted in the thread. I think the Piccolo comparison is clearly indicative of that.

Seems the DBOX isn't as "perfect" as we all originally thought.