Possible Kai hate from Z fans?

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:42 pm

omegacwa wrote:Well, it has begun, it appears TOEI isn't even immune to internet fan boys that use the term "raping".

Could be worse...

...We could be star wars fans. :p; seriously, between the Lucas gushers and the OOT purists I have a hard time fitting in as a moderate.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:51 pm

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:54 pm

To be fair though, I do want the original unaltered trilogy and joined the OT.com boards; many of the members are good-natured in their posts and try to keep it civil - heck, we even have a few saga fans there!
/end plug

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:58 pm

Bussani wrote:
omegacwa wrote:Well, it has begun, it appears TOEI isn't even immune to internet fan boys that use the term "raping".
And so it shouldn't be. If people have a problem with the product, they shouldn't let it off just because Toei made it.

Toei SHOULD pretty much get let off on this because they made the original version fully available before they did anything to it.

I'm sure the Star Wars unedited Original Trilogy Fans wouldn't have been pissed at all if they'd never discontinued the unedited Original Trilogy. instead, they had to wait till 2006 for it, thus pissing them off.

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:02 am

And even in '06,they basically got laserdiscs.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:07 am

Shiyonasan wrote:But really, you can't judge it by watching just one episode.

I do agree. I can't comment on whether I like or dislike it yet, since I've only seen that one episode. But it doesn't make complaints about it invalid.

DemonRin wrote:Toei SHOULD pretty much get let off on this because they made the original version fully available before they did anything to it.

Well, that isn't really what I meant. I'm talking about liking or disliking Kai. Obviously the original is still available, so it's not like we're going to be mad at Toei for changing things when we can just go and watch the original. What I meant was that someone shouldn't like Kai just because Toei made it.

Granted, there probably are people who dislike it for being different, but, like you say, that's dumb. And also granted, these were probably the people omegacwa was talking about, so maybe my comment came out wrong.

ssjpilafreich · Post by **ssjpilafreich** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:14 am

So far Kai hasnt impressed me much.

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:25 am

Bussani wrote: Well, that isn't really what I meant. I'm talking about liking or disliking Kai. Obviously the original is still available, so it's not like we're going to be mad at Toei for changing things when we can just go and watch the original. What I meant was that someone shouldn't like Kai just because Toei made it.

Granted, there probably are people who dislike it for being different, but, like you say, that's dumb. And also granted, these were probably the people omegacwa was talking about, so maybe my comment came out wrong.

I'm not talking about General criticism of Kai, I'm talking about the people going "Fuck You Toei, you Raped DBZ!!"

You're allowed to criticize Kai as a product, but don't give Toei crap.

It also irks me when people say "You hated FUNi cropping DBZ, why not the same hate for Toei?! Hypocrites!"
It's like these people don't get WHY people hated FUNi's bricks in the first place.

Rod · Post by **Rod** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:35 am

DemonRin wrote:
Bussani wrote: Well, that isn't really what I meant. I'm talking about liking or disliking Kai. Obviously the original is still available, so it's not like we're going to be mad at Toei for changing things when we can just go and watch the original. What I meant was that someone shouldn't like Kai just because Toei made it.

Granted, there probably are people who dislike it for being different, but, like you say, that's dumb. And also granted, these were probably the people omegacwa was talking about, so maybe my comment came out wrong.
I'm not talking about General criticism of Kai, I'm talking about the people going "Fuck You Toei, you Raped DBZ!!"

You're allowed to criticize Kai as a product, but don't give Toei crap.

It also irks me when people say "You hated FUNi cropping DBZ, why not the same hate for Toei?! Hypocrites!"
It's like these people don't get WHY people hated FUNi's bricks in the first place.

Out of curiosity, why did people hat FUNI's? I wasn't around that time so I never knew

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:44 am

DemonRin wrote:I'm not talking about General criticism of Kai, I'm talking about the people going "Fuck You Toei, you Raped DBZ!!"

You're allowed to criticize Kai as a product, but don't give Toei crap.

It also irks me when people say "You hated FUNi cropping DBZ, why not the same hate for Toei?! Hypocrites!"
It's like these people don't get WHY people hated FUNi's bricks in the first place.

Okay; like I said, that's not what I was talking about. So I agree with you.

Still, just because Toei has released the series properly already doesn't make them immune to criticism. In a way if you criticize Kai as a product you are criticizing Toei for how they're doing it.

Edit:

Rod wrote:Out of curiosity, why did people hat FUNI's? I wasn't around that time so I never knew

It's basically because FUNi has never released the series uncut, with Japanese language available, and not done something else to mess it up. The Orange Bricks are no exception because they crop the picture into widescreen, so you're losing some of the original picture.

Personally it doesn't bother me so much. I'm collecting the Orange Bricks and enjoy watching the series that way. But yeah, unlike Toei FUNi has never put out a 'perfect' release of the series.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:51 am

Rod wrote:
DemonRin wrote:
Bussani wrote: Well, that isn't really what I meant. I'm talking about liking or disliking Kai. Obviously the original is still available, so it's not like we're going to be mad at Toei for changing things when we can just go and watch the original. What I meant was that someone shouldn't like Kai just because Toei made it.

Granted, there probably are people who dislike it for being different, but, like you say, that's dumb. And also granted, these were probably the people omegacwa was talking about, so maybe my comment came out wrong.
I'm not talking about General criticism of Kai, I'm talking about the people going "Fuck You Toei, you Raped DBZ!!"

You're allowed to criticize Kai as a product, but don't give Toei crap.

It also irks me when people say "You hated FUNi cropping DBZ, why not the same hate for Toei?! Hypocrites!"
It's like these people don't get WHY people hated FUNi's bricks in the first place.
Out of curiosity, why did people hat FUNI's? I wasn't around that time so I never knew

1) FUNimation went out of their way to make a deceptive tech trailer and explanation page with fake comparison images to try and convince us that the Bricks were not cropped.

2) FUNimation never finished releasing Dragonball Z in 4:3. They did Season 3 to the end and then went back and did a portion of Season 1 before discontinuing their 4:3 singles and going with the Bricks. Thus, 16:9 is our only option in the US for the series.

Toei, on the other hand, has released the entire series in the original aspect ratio with the original audio, and they even were nice enough to clean it up for us and reduce the shakiness of the frame. These are what we call the Dragonboxes. Sold individually, they're the Dragonbox Singles. Some of us call them DBoxes for short. Spain is also releasing their own version of the DBoxes. While not as good as Toei's, they're much better than FUNimation's.

Also, Toei never lied to us. They were just like, "Yo! HD DBZ is coming!" with a couple TV ads and we came to our own conclusions about cropping, colors, and whatnot based on the TV ads.

Since Toei released all of DBZ, plays the shit out of it on Animax in it's original form, and didn't lie to us, some of us are keeping cool heads about the disappointing aspects of Kai because we know that we still have othre ways we can view the series.

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:54 am

Rod wrote:Out of curiosity, why did people hat FUNI's? I wasn't around that time so I never knew

1: FUNimation released all but 30 Episodes in Fullscreen (Although it was still SLIGHTLY cropped on all 4 sides of the image to remove film damage)
2: That release Abruptly stopped, there is about 30 Episodes of DBZ you can't buy in English uncut Fullscreen AT ALL
3: They went and Discontinued what they DID do, so even if you don't care about those 30 eps, you can't buy the rest of it Uncropped either.
4: They started this huge ad campaign that said the new sets were "The way the Series was meant to be seen" and showing movie footage to make their point (the movies were made for Widescreen)
5: They Cropped the series straight across the Center of the image the entire way through the series, even if it means cutting people's heads off, like the Ginyu Special Corps scene (Conversely, Toei is selectively re framing every shot so this doesn't happen)
6: they ran the Series through an automated system that made the Colors extremely washed out and/or bleached for the first few sets. if you watch Season 2 for example, sometimes you can't tell the difference between Bulma's Skin and the whites of her eyes.
7: The Digital dust and scratch removal they applied often removed the fine-detail lines during high-motion scenes. (watch the first few sets any time the screen shakes, you'll notice tons of Lines dissappear)

Toei on the Other hand

1: Released the Entire Series on a pair of really nice Sets known as the "Dragon Box Z" (There is also a Dragon Box and a Dragon Box GT)
2: Those sets were TRULY remastered in excellent Quality, and the Aspect Ratio was completely intact.
3: They discontinued the Sets, but then rereleased the single discs from the sets in a new "DragonBox Single" release (As we call them) which is Still available right now and isn't going anywhere.
4: They are presenting Kai as being changed. They even went so far as to give it a new Title, so they aren't really lying to us at all.

Rod · Post by **Rod** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:07 am

No wonder people got pissed, I just saw a couple screenshots, in one Goku's head is partially cut and not realising all episodes was really lame

B · Post by B » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:47 am

DemonRin wrote:You're allowed to criticize Kai as a product, but don't give Toei crap.

If Toei didn't fuck over Z with massive amounts of filler to cash in the popularity of the manga, there wouldn't even be a NEED for Kai.

What irks ME is that Toei is seen as this untouchable entity because "DEY R DA CUMPANEE DAT MAED DORAGN BORU ZEEEETTOOOOOOO!!1" and they are completely absent of fault. If anything, there MORE at fault than anything FUNimation has ever done BECAUSE they made the series. THEY'RE the ones who gave us Gohan doing fuck all with robots, tigers, and orphans, THEY'RE the ones who had Goku running along a road for six episodes, and of course, ONLY FIVE MINUTES UNTIL NAMEK EXPLODES!

A bad product is a bad product is a bad product. I don't give a fat man's dick what your company has done in the past or what reputation you have. The Dragon Ball Z: Digitally Remastered Season Sets, released by FUNimation Entertainment, were bad products. Dragon Ball Z, the 291-episode anime series released by Toei Animation, was a bad product. They both deserve criticism for their obvious and glaring problems. Excusing them only stalls production of good products.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:51 am

B wrote: Dragon Ball Z: Digitally Remastered Season Sets, released by FUNimation Entertainment, were bad products. Dragon Ball Z, the 291-episode anime series released by Toei Animation, was a bad product. They both deserve criticism for their obvious and glaring problems. Excusing them only stalls production of good products.

No doubt about that, but to be fair I do see a lot of the community pointing out the anime's flaws on a regular basis.

B · Post by B » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:03 am

I see that, but it's usually in the form of "well, whatever!" But when we get to FUNimation, they raped the product and were the only ones interested in making a profit.

I'm not trying to come off as a bitter FUNi-fan who doesn't want my precious dub burned; I just can't understand the logic behind excusing Toei for doing the same thing FUNimation did: Making the Dragon Ball series less enjoyable. You can argue one company did far worse things than the other, but that just doesn't absolve the other company's faults.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:16 am

B wrote:I see that, but it's usually in the form of "well, whatever!" But when we get to FUNimation, they raped the product and were the only ones interested in making a profit.

I'm not trying to come off as a bitter FUNi-fan who doesn't want my precious dub burned; I just can't understand the logic behind excusing Toei for doing the same thing FUNimation did: Making the Dragon Ball series less enjoyable.

I think a lot of it may have to do with nostalgia. The fans who watched the anime for the first time probably were just excited to see the DB cast animated. When they look back on it I suppose it would be hard not to be biased.The same could be said for the Funimation dub as well in terms of nostalgia.

Meanwhile fans of the original anime despise the Funi dub because they have no emotional connection to it.

Even I fell victim to nostalgia while watching Kai. I really do think it's going to be a much better experience but it just didn't give me that warm fuzzy feeling like the original did.

obiwan23s · Post by **obiwan23s** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:17 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:Kai IMO alters the tone into that of a much newer Shonen series of a very specific mold, one that Toei has been reaping some mad bank on recently with titles like Bleach and Naruto and One Piece. Do I like it? Not remotely. Do I fucking LOATHE it? Sometimes yes, but not always. As done here with Kai thus far, it’s something that I can at least sit through. It’s serviceable, it’s watcheable. It’s good background noise at best.

First of all, Toei has absolutely nothing to do with Bleach or Naruto. Their hands are not on the production of either of those shows whatsoever. Second, all three of those comics will definitely run longer than the Dragon Ball, and at a longer per-chapter page length, which equates to a longer anime series. Bleach and Naruto have entire SEASONS of filler. Think of going 25 episodes of DBZ without advancing any further in the actual plot. I think you're really off the mark on Kai altering the tone of the show, especially that part about Kai making it feel like a more modern show.

Kai is not intended to supplant DBZ or even retcon it. It's going to become one of those things where if Kai's not for you, then stick with Z and get off its case. Don't like the cropping? Z isn't cropped. Don't like the new score? Z has the old score. Don't like the re-dub? Z has the original recording. Don't like the new songs? Z has the old ones. Don't like the remaster/colors? Z has its own remaster with different colors.

Point is, a lot of the hate I see for Kai here is because it's not Z. Kai doesn't claim to be Z and hasn't from the beginning. The thing that gets me the most is that everyone knew these things were coming, knew this was going to happen and is still acting like someone decided to take a dump on their beloved DBZ. I don't understand it, and I guess I'm not meant to. When looking at the situation rationally there's really no room for understanding the hate that's getting tossed around.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:29 am

B wrote:
DemonRin wrote:You're allowed to criticize Kai as a product, but don't give Toei crap.
If Toei didn't fuck over Z with massive amounts of filler to cash in the popularity of the manga, there wouldn't even be a NEED for Kai.

It was unvoidable. The Anime was running right behind the Manga, therefore it had to add filler. It happanes all of the time with other JUMP series' (to varying degrees of course).

Post by **VegettoEX** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:30 am

Forgive me for not yet having a chance to read every single last post, but if my glancing-through is correct...

Why on Earth are people under this delusional assumption that no-one DISLIKES what has been done with Kai? I personally said this time and time again on the site and podcast: Toei does not get a free-pass just because they're Japanese. I have seen plenty of people disagreeing with the course this show has taken, and I'm reading posts that seem to imply that all fans of the Japanese version are eating this up with no critical analysis just because it's Japanese and comes from Toei...

... which couldn't be further from the truth.

Is it just a case of people reading what they want to read to try and prove their "point"...? Or am I totally just missing something, here?

Then on the other side, I'm seeing people claim that because it's something "new" (which is true!)... it can't be touched at all for critical analysis.

Well, geeze... if we can't talk about it, what's there to talk about...?!

Finally, I would like to remind everyone that if you can't state your points eloquently and kindly to your peers, please do not bother posting.

Kanzenshuu

Possible Kai hate from Z fans?

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