Censorship in Kai: How Do You Feel About It?

[DemonRin]

And you STILL ignored the part of my post where I said Saban wasn't in the wrong...

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

And you STILL ignored the part of my post where I said Saban wasn't in the wrong...

Huh? I have nothing to say about it. Other than, well, I think they were. They went beyond network needs and the way they did the required edits was horribly ridiculous.

Besides, you just "ignored" the entirety of my last post.

[Ramoro-san]

Oh, god dammit.
Well, then I agree with Tweaker and Super Ghost.
Censoring content from the original animation is a dumb thing to do even if it's... genitals.

[Victator Supreme]

WHY is little boy Penis GOOD?!

You didnt answer the question.

My question is, why does little boy penis matter one way or the other?
It's. Little. Boy. Penis.

You still did not answer.

[JulieYBM]

And you STILL ignored the part of my post where I said Saban wasn't in the wrong...

Huh? I have nothing to say about it. Other than, well, I think they were. They went beyond network needs and the way they did the required edits was horribly ridiculous.

Besides, you just "ignored" the entirety of my last post.

You might think they were, but rules had to be followed and they did. It doesn't matter now, does it? What is in the past created today. Do you like today? I think we all do.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

You might think they were, but rules had to be followed and they did. It doesn't matter now, does it? What is in the past created today. Do you like today? I think we all do.

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you just said. I seriously am just not comprehending what you're trying to communicate, here. >.>

[DemonRin]

He's saying that you may think whatever you want, but the fact of the matter is that the TV channel that showed DBZ Back in the Saban Days, and Fuji TV now both have standards and rules that must be followed, and Saban back in the Day and Toei now both just followed the rules as best they could, they don't deserve any crap for doing what they HAD to do to get the show on TV. Yes, Even Gohan's tears, if that's even why they were removed.

[Tweaker]

You're missing the point, though--it's not right. When logic dictates that every single thing they're censoring and every thing they're changing about the show not only doesn't make sense, but isn't warranted given the circumstances regarding other shows in a similar time slot, then why sit back and accept it just because "it's the law"?

If there was a law that told you that you could never utter any kind of word that even implied that genitalia existed in your entire life, banned reproduction, and pretty much everything defined as arbitrarily "lewd" in your life, then would you sit back and accept it because it's the law, or would you fight it because you don't believe any of it is right, even if you don't believe in making any kind of lewd references and the like? After all, these laws are unreasonably barring and censoring very human and very real qualities, morally objectable or not.

Just because standards must be followed doesn't mean they should be followed--or even exist, for that matter.

[DemonRin]

What similar time slot?

The only close show is One Piece, and have you seen either a big, bleeding, gaping hole in anyone or any pools of blood beneath people in One Piece since the time slot changed at episode 280? (It doesn't count of the Person has a Devil Fruit and healed it right after without blood)
One Piece has been RIFE with censorship since then, When Law pulled the middle finger in a recent chapter, it was removed when animated.

And even before that there was some weird stuff. In Arabasta, Luffy could bleed so much his arms were CAKED in blood for the fight with Crocodile, but then when some little kid threw a Rock at Conis' head and made it bleed, (and later Robin's in her flashback) they censored it, instead making the thrown object a tomato and where the blood was originally, they made the tomato leak Juice.
For SOME REASON Luffy bleeding all over himself was fine, but a kid throwing one rock and making someone bleed a tiny bit was a big no-no.

And no, logic doesn't dictate anything. If parents don't want their kids seeing certain things, they complain and those complaints lead to standards getting changed.
For a Sunday morning time slot where little kids watch, that's not acceptable in Japan anymore.

Most examples of other shows that allow this stuff, including DBZs original airing itself were PRIME TIME where standards are more lax.

[Kendamu]

You're missing the point, though--it's not right. When logic dictates that every single thing they're censoring and every thing they're changing about the show not only doesn't make sense, but isn't warranted given the circumstances regarding other shows in a similar time slot, then why sit back and accept it just because "it's the law"?

If there was a law that told you that you could never utter any kind of word that even implied that genitalia existed in your entire life, banned reproduction, and pretty much everything defined as arbitrarily "lewd" in your life, then would you sit back and accept it because it's the law, or would you fight it because you don't believe any of it is right, even if you don't believe in making any kind of lewd references and the like? After all, these laws are unreasonably barring and censoring very human and very real qualities, morally objectable or not.

Just because standards must be followed doesn't mean they should be followed--or even exist, for that matter.

If maybe that law was applying to something a bit more important than Dragonball, then I wouldn't just sit back and follow the law. For example, if the media in the US was forced to only say good things about Bush while he was in office and manipulate his approval ratings to be like 95% (with the other 5% being terrorists or something) and anything bad was outright censored and I learned the truth, I wouldn't just sit around and go, "Oh well. That's the law."

Such isn't the case, though. It's a comic book adaption on television. Stuff's gonna change. There's going to be censorship. This show doesn't decide the fate of a nation or anything. It's something I catch once a week when I have time to get around to it. You can be as angry as you want and you can compare it to some serious stuff that comes right out of a heavy-handed Gundam plot, but I see it from a completely different perspective.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

You're missing the point, though--it's not right. When logic dictates that every single thing they're censoring and every thing they're changing about the show not only doesn't make sense, but isn't warranted given the circumstances regarding other shows in a similar time slot, then why sit back and accept it just because "it's the law"?

If there was a law that told you that you could never utter any kind of word that even implied that genitalia existed in your entire life, banned reproduction, and pretty much everything defined as arbitrarily "lewd" in your life, then would you sit back and accept it because it's the law, or would you fight it because you don't believe any of it is right, even if you don't believe in making any kind of lewd references and the like? After all, these laws are unreasonably barring and censoring very human and very real qualities, morally objectable or not.

Just because standards must be followed doesn't mean they should be followed--or even exist, for that matter.

Do you seriously believe that Toei gets to decide what's allowed on TV or something?

[DemonRin]

One Piece is the Key to all of this.

During the Romance Dawn arc, Helmeppo held a gun RIGHT up to Coby's head, that was fine and they showed it.
During the Baratie arc, several Chefs held guns up to Sanji's head, and for some reason it was no longer ok and the guns got changed to giant kitchen utensils (Knives and forks)
The only major difference was that Helmeppo was a villain, and the Chefs were actually good guys. IS that why it was changed? I have NO IDEA but it was, and at Anime Expo the Director and art director were on hand and said they hated making those changes but they HAD TO.

Another thing that I already mentioned: Luffy can get BLOOD AS HELL in his fights, just watch Luffy vs Rob Lucci, that fight was BRUTAL.
Meanwhile, a kid throws a small rock at Conis' head, and makes a TINY stream of blood and SUDDENLY there's a huge problem and it has to become a Tomato, and the stream becomes tomato juice.

Censors are REALLY specific about things, and if the censors at Fuji TV said "No little boy Penis, and No Big Gaping holes" then, No little boy penis and no gaping holes. Sorry Pedos and Gorefiends.

If One Piece is anything to go by (Same Company makes it, Same Channel plays it, it's on in the same hour) then we don't have to worry about further censorship. There will still be plenty of blood and everything will be Ok.

But at least they're redrawing the frames they DO edit, so the edits are cleanly done at the very least. I mean, if we didn't KNOW there was supposed to be a gaping hole in Son's chest, we may not have noticed.

[JulieYBM]

He's saying that you may think whatever you want, but the fact of the matter is that the TV channel that showed DBZ Back in the Saban Days, and Fuji TV now both have standards and rules that must be followed, and Saban back in the Day and Toei now both just followed the rules as best they could, they don't deserve any crap for doing what they HAD to do to get the show on TV. Yes, Even Gohan's tears, if that's even why they were removed.

Yeah pretty much. I might have been half-asleep when I wrote that, but essentially I'm saying things had to be done and if we changed what happened we wouldn't be here today (I'm pretty paranoid about time travel and medddling with the past).

[Tweaker]

If maybe that law was applying to something a bit more important than Dragonball, then I wouldn't just sit back and follow the law.

That's the difference here, though--you're subjectively prioritizing importance between Dragon Ball and other facets of your life, which is fair enough and discerns the two well enough; I'm trying to make a point against censorship as a whole, which just so happens to include two different--but still comparable--situations.

Do you seriously believe that Toei gets to decide what's allowed on TV or something?

No--I know they're not. You're kind of missing my point, though.

Censors are REALLY specific about things, and if the censors at Fuji TV said "No little boy Penis, and No Big Gaping holes" then, No little boy penis and no gaping holes. Sorry Pedos and Gorefiends.

Okay, this shit is starting to piss me off. Why the hell does someone have to be a fucking pedophile to advocate free artistic expression? Take your generalizations and shove them up your ass--I'm sick of them. They're not valid points in regards to why I'm against the censorship of anything--genitalia included--and they're just making you look like a broken record. Please stop.

I'm aware of who says what is and what is allowed on TV; I'm just saying that such arbitrary standards should not be in effect in the first place. But I guess continuously stating that makes me a pedophile, so whatever.

Finally, I'm also not acting like Toei is at fault, nor am I trying to say that the people who have to censor this material actually enjoy it, or even want to do it; I'm just strongly against the fact that it had to happen in the first place.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

I don't think it's a "BIG HUGE DEAL", I don't link censorship in Kai with the Gestapo, I don't see it as a huge cultural, social, or otherwise important on a grand scale thing.

But for Kai, it's hurting my enjoyment of the show, and I just don't care who's fault it is. Besides, I'm pretty sure it's on the business level, and the network is calling the shots rather than any government involvement. At some point Toei agreed to the censorship. At this point, I would have preferred that they either re-animate the series so that each frame was made with those standards in mind, OR have them drop the Kai project altogether.

[DemonRin]

No, censorship is wrong and should go away, but newsflash, it NEVER will.

Fighting censorship in an era where people are afraid of sneezing lest they offend someone is like fighting against nature to keep the rain from coming. It's a losing battle.

Just be happy that Toei had the good graces to release all of Z uncut before releasing Kai, and hope that the DVD release puts back some of the gore and what have you.

The reason I'm so baffled about the Boy Penis thing is, It's REALLY the least important thing in Dragon Ball. I get the complaints about Everything else (for the record, I don't LIKE the censorship, I just understand it and can forgive it) but Really, I'd say the Little Boy Penis is so minor it's pretty much a non-issue.

I've just been acting a bit goofy in the way I've been referring to it, I apologize.

[Tweaker]

Well, that's more than fair. I'm just a rebel--I've gotta fight the power!

Glad to see we agree, though.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Just be happy that Toei had the good graces to release all of Z uncut before releasing Kai, and hope that the DVD release puts back some of the gore and what have you.

I *could* say Thank Toei, the Untouchable Gods for giving us overpriced singles and pre-order only thousand dollar box sets, but frankly I don't care that they did. It's a release I'll likely never own. It doesn't affect me in the slightest. Besides, they made a ton of money off them, they're a business, and they make money by making products. It wasn't a gift or anything.

Anyway, I know censorship isn't "going away". What I say here on an unofficial message board in the US is not going to affect what Toei does in Japan. That's not why I'm posting. I'm posting to give an opinion, and that is "This censorship is bad, and it's hurting my enjoyment of Kai which I may otherwise find to be a fun distraction."

The reason I'm so baffled about the Boy Penis thing is, It's REALLY the least important thing in Dragon Ball. I get the complaints about Everything else (for the record, I don't LIKE the censorship, I just understand it and can forgive it) but Really, I'd say the Little Boy Penis is so minor it's pretty much a non-issue.

I've already said why I think nudity is in fact warranted in this case.

-Goku is unabashed about his nudity because he has no cultural standards against it. This purity is then overridden by the message that "bodies are bad", thanks to the censorship.
-Nudity is a symbol for purity. Again, overridden by "Bodies are Bad."
-The scene was originally drawn for that to be included. They're overriding the original intent.
-Censorship is bad, mmmkay?

I've just been acting a bit goofy in the way I've been referring to it, I apologize.

I don't think so. As long as you're not personally offended anyway, everything's good(I never did mean to be offensive, just to have a fun online discussion).

[Victator Supreme]

Well lets put it this way. Whoever is responcible for the censoring is a shit head. Does that cover all the bases?

[DemonRin]

Well lets put it this way. Whoever is responcible for the censoring is a shit head. Does that cover all the bases?

Really, it's the society in Japan.

If nobody had ever complained about the things being seen on TV, Fuji would have never had to change their practices and Toei would never have had to censor the show.

It's a sad situation, but it's something that will never go away.