Who is Stronger Questions

[Questrider]

I know this has been posted before or certainly discussed but I was unable to find an old post that contained the answers I was looking for.
The questions I have are several and there may even be several different answers for each question.
Since you guys are the experts, I was hoping to get some clear answers on this once and for all.
That said, I’ll get right to what I’d like to know…

1. In the MANGA, Who is the strongest character at the very END of DBZ? Goku or Gohan? Is it debatable or is there a solid, factual answer?

Before you answer that, I just want to point out that at THIS specific time, we see Gohan as the scholar he always wanted to be which leads me to believe he is not nearly training like he used to. We don’t have any actual proof of that but it is a rather fair assumption, right? (Please correct me if I am wrong. That’s WHY I am asking.) Also, I know that before the Mystic power up, Gohan was actually said to have LOST some power since the fight with Cell and I bring up this point solely because I was wondering if his power level would have gone down in a similar matter since it seemed as though most of his time was spent, well, becoming a better scholar. I just thought this was a possible factor which is why I thought it needed mentioning. Goku, on the other hand was busy training Goten and Pan, (from what we saw) which leads me to believe Goku was still actively training. I guess a good follow up question to that would be, how much stronger did Goku get AFTER the fight with Kid Buu? That question is certainly debatable, but again, I saw this as an interesting factor.
Moving on…

2. Same questions but for the Japanese ANIME…is the answer any different? I ask because I have often times heard that different versions of the story have yielded some very different answers or at least have hinted at some different possibilities.
3. Same questions but for the FUNi ANIME….is the answer any different?

4. You guys are AGAIN the experts. Tell me who was really stronger: Kid Buu or Super Buu? (MANGA)

5. Kid Buu or Super Buu? (JAPANESE ANIME)

6. Kid Buu or Super Buu? (FUNi ANIME)

It’s basically 2 questions TOTAL for the entire post, but I hear conflicting arguments ALL the time and I hear more often than not that it depends on WHAT version you are watching OR what you are reading. Is this true or are the answers the same no matter the medium?

[hleV]

In both manga and the anime, the answers to your questions shouldn't differ at all. However, we can't answer you.

[Bussani]

1-3: We don't know. There's no official word on it, we don't see Gohan fight at all, and we don't really see Goku go all out. It's anyone's guess. But since Gohan was said to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks (which Trunks and Goten themselves admit after seeing him in action), Goku would have had to have gotten a lot stronger to catch up.

4: We probably don't know for sure, since it's hard to directly compare the two. The people who fight Super Buu don't fight Kid Buu, and the people who fight Kid Buu don't fight Super Buu. There's no guide that says, "This guy is stronger than this guy," either. The few comments we have to go on are things like Goku claiming that neither he nor Vegeta would have a chance against Super Buu (which is said when they free everyone from inside him and escape), only for both of them to think that they can take Kid Buu. If that's true, Super Buu would be the stronger one. Then again, they could have just be underestimating Kid Buu.

I'm not sure if it's different in the anime, so I can't answer 5 or 6.

[Savage68]

You guys are AGAIN the experts. Tell me who was really stronger: Kid Buu or Super Buu? (MANGA)

There most certainly is a solid, factual answer to this: Super Buu. But there are too many guys that opt to use logical fallacies, guide entries, or misunderstandings of otherwise clear statements to argue against it. Now that I think about it, haven't we had this discussion on another board...?

I think the most common arguments for Kid are:

- Every Kaioshin that Buu absorbs weakens him.
- The more diluted his evil is, the weaker he becomes.
- An array of Genki Dama-related assertions.

But all in all, I think the DB fandom is somewhat wising up, since the only place you'll really find with a decent amount of (knowledgeable) Kid > Super posters would be YouTube.

And the anime is so contradictory that this question shouldn't even be asked. Kid Buu > Super Buu > Kid Buu >> Buutenks >> Kid Buu.

[Questrider]

I'm sure this HAS been discussed, but I wasn't able to find anything...

I just figured that if anyone knew the answers, they would be here.

[rereboy]

1. Well, Mystic Gohan was much stronger than Goku when he appeared so it only depends on if you believe Goku managed to surpass him or not by the end of the manga. There is nothing in the manga or in DBZ that can answer it either way, though.

4. Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu. While inside of Buu`s body, Goku stated to Vegeta that they couldn`t face Super Buu without fusing or else they would just get killed. He stated this while actually looking kind of scared or apprehensive of the prospect of facing Kid Buu, giving the reader the impression that he believed that they simply wouldn`t stand a chance.

However, when the time came to face Kid Buu, he was much more optimistic and he believed that he/they could win. And even after stating that he had underestimated Kid Buu (after beginning to fight him) he still thought that he could win and kill Kid Buu if he concentrated his power for a minute.

But something that he didn`t expect happened. It was harder to maintain the SSJ3 state while being alive. He didn`t anticipate that and so he was unable to concentrate his power and defeat Kid Buu (which he probably would have done if it wasn`t for that setback).

These events and statements happened in both the manga and (Toei) anime. As such, I believe there isn`t any difference between them regarding their power.
(I don`t know about Funi because I never watched their version of the anime).

Kid Buu > Super Buu > Kid Buu >> Buutenks >> Kid Buu.

Uh.. what?

[Savage68]

Uh.. what?

...Filler contradicting itself.

[Kaboom]

Okay guys, step back. This is my forte.
(EDIT: Dammit, that's what I get for being thorough)

Yeah, typically, this kind of in-universe speculation isn't the preferred subject matter for discussion around here, but a question is a question, especially if you're trying to do research for something.

1. In the MANGA, Who is the strongest character at the very END of DBZ? Goku or Gohan? Is it debatable or is there a solid, factual answer?

Well, at the end of the actual battle with Majin Boo, Gohan was undeniably the strongest non-Vegetto hero around. He completely trounced the menacing Super Boo, whom Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks could barely match, and Goku was actually scared for his life to even try fighting.

But ten years later, in the manga's epilogue, we don't know for sure. Gohan had a VERY big lead on Goku and everyone else, so Goku would probably have to have been outright working his ass off for the entire ten years to notably surpass him. But from what we can see, Goku's training during that time has been more casual as well as it being normal Earth-training instead of under any special circumstances or conditions. What's more, his best training partner is Pan. Vegeta wouldn't train with him, Gohan's a scholar now, and Goten's a slacker. Maybe he spars with Boo every so often, but with how rarely he apparently visits everyone, that's not very likely.

So, is Goku the strongest hero by the end of the manga? The answer is, "maybe."

2. Same questions but for the Japanese ANIME…is the answer any different? I ask because I have often times heard that different versions of the story have yielded some very different answers or at least have hinted at some different possibilities.
3. Same questions but for the FUNi ANIME….is the answer any different?
4. You guys are AGAIN the experts. Tell me who was really stronger: Kid Buu or Super Buu? (MANGA)
5. Kid Buu or Super Buu? (JAPANESE ANIME)
6. Kid Buu or Super Buu? (FUNi ANIME)

You're right, this is all kinda the same basic question split into several. So...

In the manga, Super Boo is undeniably stronger than Kid Boo. Like I stated above, Goku was confident he could defeat Kid Boo under the right circumstances, and he was never quite proven wrong. Yet he was terrified of fighting Super Boo, whom only Gotenks and Gohan could go toe-to-toe with. Goku was actually relieved when he thought Vegeta's plan was to bring them to the Kaioshin realm to help beat Kid Boo.

But Toei, in their tendency to fellate Goku at every opportunity... mixed things up a bit. See, everything in the story that I just mentioned above is still there. Goku can beat Kid Boo, terrified of Super Boo, wants Gohan and Gotenks' help, etc... Yet in the anime, a big ol' wrench is thrown into the middle of it when Goku straight-up claims that Kid Boo is, "the absolutely strongest Majin Boo so far," or something like that. This is, of course, an attempt to make Goku look better. But it completely screws up the perfectly fine power-scaling that the manga managed to set up. It could even imply that Kid Boo is stronger than Super Boo with Gohan absorbed, whom only the almighty Super Vegetto could defeat.

So in the anime, Kid Boo is said to be the strongest Boo, and Goku is thus implied as being stronger than either Gotenks or Gohan since he can fight him. But this makes no sense against not just the manga, but even in the anime's own version of events.

I don't remember at all how the FUNimation dub handled these lines. Considering that they were key to the story, they probably got changed in some way or another. Somebody else will have to fill you in on that.

[jjgp1112]

In the FUNimation dub, they used Toei's contradictory explanation.

[Piccolo Daimao]

deleted

[Kaboom]

In the FUNimation dub, they used Toei's contradictory explanation.

The Boo arc dub was generally WAY more accurate with its dialogue, at least compared to Z's other arcs. So I'm not surprised.

[rereboy]

Uh.. what?

...Filler contradicting itself.

Ah sorry

[Godo]

1. In the MANGA, Who is the strongest character at the very END of DBZ? Goku or Gohan? Is it debatable or is there a solid, factual answer?

I don't think that there is any solid answer, but my belief is that Gohan, with all his potential locked up, is still the strongest.
I see no reason to believe that Gohan would lose that power, since he clearly didn't lose his power from his previous Saichoro (Guru) lock up when he didn't train for a whole year after the defeat of Freeza.
And about people thinking that Gohan's powerup disappeared, noone would think that if they:
A) Weren't Goku fanboys who want ~GOKU~ to be the strongest and
B) Didn't watch DBGT and try to make it's plotholes magically vanish with cuckoo theories.

Goku could still get stronger, no doubt, but at his rate, when only transformations could dramatically make him stronger, so his strength wouldn't rise that fast anymore.

4. You guys are AGAIN the experts. Tell me who was really stronger: Kid Buu or Super Buu? (MANGA)

Super Buu. I don't see what the fuss is really. We have several clear facts that point towards Super Buu being stronger:

1) Goku stated that even together with Vegeta, he couldn't defeat Super Buu. And this was when everybody already knew that he could use SSJ3.
2) Gotenks and Gohan were much, much stronger than Goku, not just by a fraction. If that were the case, Goku and Rou (old) Kaioshin wouldn't even bother teaching Goten and Trunks the fusion, and unlock Gohan's powers.
3) THE ONLY PROBLEM WITH KID BUU IS HIS REGENERATION POWERS, THAT'S WHY HE WAS SO DIFFICULT TO DEFEAT. SSJ3 GOKU AND KID BUU WERE EVEN IN BATTLE, KID BUU BEING A LITTLE MORE CARELESS THAN GOKU.
4) Gohan pummeled this Super Buu, who according to Piccolo's senses was much stronger than Fat Buu, the guy that SSJ3 Goku fought (and he claimed that he maybe couldn't win). Thus, Super Buu is stronger.
5) Goku and Vegeta thought that they could defeat Kid Buu, and they were right. At least if Goku's power didn't drop. And they soon found out that the biggest problem was that Kid Buu was a rage machine with no reasoning in his bubblegum brain at all.

5. Kid Buu or Super Buu? (JAPANESE ANIME)

6. Kid Buu or Super Buu? (FUNi ANIME)

This is a delicate matter, really. We have the same fight scenes as in the manga, but TOEI added in more scenes with ~GOKU~ fighting Buu so that his fans could wet their pants some more.
First we see Goku fighting Gotenks Buu as a SSJ3, and he can evade his attacks almost as well as Mystic Gohan can.
But then we see Goku fighting Kid Buu as a SSJ2 and doing pretty well.
But in the end, it's clear that Super Buu is the strongest.

[Questrider]

Good posts so far but no one has still offered up enough info to warrant actual facts...

A lot of times people bring up this argument:
Goku was so terrified of Super Buu that he pleaded with Vegeta to fuse. (Knowing full well he wasn’t strong enough)

I have a completely different take on Goku’s mindset here.

Super Buu, at this time had successfully absorbed everyone and he seemed like he would keep moving in this direction.
Kid Buu, on the other hand never attempted to absorb anyone once that final fight began which leads me to believe both Kid Buu and Super Buu had very different battle tactics. That sounds about right, correct? Let me keep going…

Is it possible then, that Goku was worried about getting absorbed? Could it be he was worried they would not get a fair fight? Is it possible that he could have handled Super Buu if he KNEW that Super Buu would NOT try to absorb him? Could it be that THIS is what Goku was worried about all along? Kinda making it pointless to fight someone who was going to fight dirty from the start?
Is it possible Goku was simply cunning enough to know that fusion was the best possible option?
At this point, there wasn’t going to be any second chances to try anything else, right?
And besides, how do you beat a foe that will just absorb you once things start going the other way? Is it possible that THIS is what troubled Goku the most?

The other possible misinterpretation I’d like to bring up is when Goku and Vegeta claim they can take Kid Buu. A lot of people claim that they recognized Kid Buu’s power level and realized they could win but I think those comments had everything to do with Kid Buu’s physical SIZE. Can you see how one could come to that conclusion?

Also, could one assume Kid Buu would never TRY absorbing Goku and Vegeta simply because he was that much more powerful to begin with?
And IF Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu, wouldn’t an absorption be the first thing he tries?

[rereboy]

Kid buu was the one who "invented" absorption when he absorbed South Kaioshin. Also, Goku had no idea what Kid Buu`s tactics were and he had no reason to believe that Kid Buu wouldn`t try to absorb them just like Super Buu had done or if he would act any different.

The only thing he could judge was his power compared to Super Buu.

As such, to me its fairly obvious that he considered Super Buu an opponent that he couldn`t beat, while he considered Kid Buu an opponent that he could beat. Its that simple.

Freeza was the same size as Kid Buu or even shorted. And he was a monster. I do not think Goku and Vegeta would be stupid enough to think that matters in the slightest. Their reactions of relief were because Kid Buu wasn`t as strong as the other Buus. But he was still very strong.

As for the fusion, Goku stated that they wouldn`t last against Super Buu as they were. As for Kid Buu they had a fair shot as they were. Simple.

[Kaboom]

Also, could one assume Kid Buu would never TRY absorbing Goku and Vegeta simply because he was that much more powerful to begin with?

Well, he DID try turning Goku into candy.

[Savage68]

Is it possible then, that Goku was worried about getting absorbed?

No. He was worried that he and Vegeta would be killed if they fought Super Buu, which is what he said. He was talking about power, and nothing suggests he had the contingency of absorption in the back of his mind when he made the statement. There's not much reason to think he meant something that he didn't say.

The other possible misinterpretation I’d like to bring up is when Goku and Vegeta claim they can take Kid Buu. A lot of people claim that they recognized Kid Buu’s power level and realized they could win but I think those comments had everything to do with Kid Buu’s physical SIZE. Can you see how one could come to that conclusion?

The only way I could see is if someone went back through the manga looking for a reason to discredit Super Buu's strength in favor of Kid's, tbh. Goku & Vegeta are seasoned warriors. They don't make assumptions about their enemies' power based on their sizes. When Buu was in his 'Buff" stage they were citing his ki. So, why would they suddenly forget all about that a moment later and just dismiss Kid Buu's power because he was smaller?

And IF Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu, wouldn’t an absorption be the first thing he tries?

Why would it? No one was stronger than him. It took a beating by a superior opponent to push Super Buu to the brink of desperation. Why would an insane idiot like Kid Buu jump right out of the gate and absorb someone that poses no challenge to him?

[Questrider]

While I appreciate the comments thus far, NONE of you have addressed my questions with actual facts.
From what I can gather, all viewpoints seem based on assumptions. OR, how YOU interpreted a given scene.
Sure, we have plenty of dialogue but even dialogue can be misinterpreted. Right?

We can “guess” all we want on what Goku and Vegeta actually meant when they first made comments about Kid Buu but I still have yet to see any conclusive evidence. It has all been speculation so far.

Here’s another question though to add to the mix.
IF Gohan and Gotenks were so infinitely more powerful than Goku, then WHY would they not use the wishes to wish these 2 fighters back???
So many of the arguments I hear are based on the fact that Gohan owns Super Buu and since we know that’s true, then WHY wouldn’t they at least wish HIM back as he should be more than enough to handle Kid Buu, right? (And yeah, they DID wish him back but it wasn't to help them fight)

Ah, but here’s the typical response:
They wanted Goku to have the last battle.

How does that make any sense?
For the good of the story IT DOES make sense but if we take ourselves out of the “watchers point of view”, wouldn’t Goku and Vegeta logically come to the conclusion that Gohan could solve all of the problems?

Don’t think of it from a story telling perspective. Think of this problem from the characters perspective.

Being that both Goku and Vegeta are both great fighters, I don’t see why they wouldn’t come to that conclusion.
UNLESS of course that Kid Buu is THAT much stronger than Super Buu.

Can you see what I’m saying?

Now, don’t get me wrong. I am NOT taking a side here. I am NOT stating any of this as FACT. I, like you, am still speculating and trying to logically find an answer and I am trying to take everything into consideration.

[Savage68]

IF Gohan and Gotenks were so infinitely more powerful than Goku, then WHY would they not use the wishes to wish these 2 fighters back???

They revived all of the Earthlings. Goku actually thought that Vegeta was going to wish Gohan/Gotenks onto the Kaioshinkai to fight Buu, but Vegeta declined and spouted some bullcrap about how the Earth needs to defend itself. It's the same poor reasoning Goku used when he opted against killing the fat Buu. He obviously could've, but wanted someone else to have the glory. Let's not get carried away here. That, along with everything else that has been stated by myself and the others here, is a fact.

How come you're only putting forth questions to make Kid Buu seem stronger, anyway? The last time we debated this, you were a huge proponent of Kid being stronger than Super. Did you change your mind since then?

[Questrider]

Savage said:
How come you're only putting forth questions to make Kid Buu seem stronger, anyway? From this and the last time we debated this, you were a huge proponent of Kid being stronger than Super. Did you change your mind since then?


No, I haven't changed my mind. But I WOULD if I was satisfied with the answers. I just can't take what I've read as FACT. I have opened up loop holes for each argument and I'm still not getting anything to really shut any of that down. All I'm getting is: This is fact because I say so.
I don't mean that as a slight, it's just how I am perceiving the responses.

It still just sounds like a lot of interpretations to me and/or personal opinions.

Look at the argument from my side and tell me you wouldn't feel the same.