GokoU

[linkdude20002001]

Again, Japanese romanization is systematic. There are systems to it, and romanizing long "o" as "oh" and long "u" as "uh" does not fall into any of them. Yes, they are technically romanizations, but they're archaic and incorrect by today's standards. I only see them nowadays in a few Japanese people/character names and seldom in series names. Those paricular romanizations mostly stem from Japanese people not knowing correct romanization systems (hence Toriyama using "Gokuh").

Yes, I know what I just said may seem hypocritical, since I have used the "oh" romanization on many occasions and it's in my username. But I obviously have learnt from then and do don't do it currently.

They may be non-standard, but they certainly have a "system" behind them (and they certainly aren't archaic). If they're allowed on passports, then you can't say they're wrong. The government wouldn't allow those romanizations if they were wrong.

I would agree with you that I automatically see things as a Japanese person would, that's why I've tried to see the "GOKOU" spelling as a layperson. Yes, I can sort of see how someone might pronounce "GOKOU" as "Gokuu", through words like "you" and "caribou". But these types of words are rare and 90% of the time, "ou" is pronounced as "ow" in English. Don't believe me? Here's a whole list of them.

That's a list of words that use "ou" to make an "ow" sound. That's not a good comparison. We need a list of ALL words with "ou" in them. So far I've not come across a non-Japanese-knowing person who would see "Gokou" and say GOH-KOH. Your argument isn't very good if you can only pretend you're a non-Japanese-knowing person. You need the minds of actual normal people.

[ShiningMoon]

Just jumping in, as a person who has never formally studied Japanese, when I see "ou" I automatically think of the "ow" or "oh" sound. (So when I first encountered the spelling Gokou, I was very much thrown off by who or what this "Goh-kow" was. Seeing it spelled that way is still disorienting to me.) Obviously I can't contribute anything to the more technical discussion going on here, but I felt like maybe I could provide some representation for the population that's only picked up on anything related to the Japanese language through casual exposure. (To support the notion that, indeed, some portion of laypeople may default to reading "ou" as the sound in "shout" rather than "you" without training in the Japanese language.)

'Course, DB and any other material from Japan I have consumed over the years may have had some significant impact... Or maybe it's related to the obscene amount of phonics my class studied in the second grade?

[Olivier Hague]

Again, Japanese romanization is systematic.

And again, no, not necessarily. Examples were given on the first page. Come on.

they're archaic and incorrect by today's standards.

Excuse me, but who are you to tell what's "correct" or "incorrect", here?

[linkdude20002001]

Just jumping in, as a person who has never formally studied Japanese, when I see "ou" I automatically think of the "ow" or "oh" sound. (So when I first encountered the spelling Gokou, I was very much thrown off by who or what this "Goh-kow" was. Seeing it spelled that way is still disorienting to me.) Obviously I can't contribute anything to the more technical discussion going on here, but I felt like maybe I could provide some representation for the population that's only picked up on anything related to the Japanese language through casual exposure. (To support the notion that, indeed, some portion of laypeople may default to reading "ou" as the sound in "shout" rather than "you" without training in the Japanese language.)

'Course, DB and any other material from Japan I have consumed over the years may have had some significant impact... Or maybe it's related to the obscene amount of phonics my class studied in the second grade?

Thanks for shore sharing your mindset.

But still... There are going to be people who will pronounce the "ou" like "ow" in cow, or the "ou" in country, or the "ou" in you, or the "ou" in sound. English just sucks that way. Any of these pronunciations (except maybe the "uhh" sound) are possible, and no saying that the Japanese company that chose to use "Gokou" is wrong, is... WRONG. Piccolo Daimaoh, your opinion that "Gokou" isn't the BEST spelling to use, does not make it WRONG.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

They may be non-standard, but they certainly have a "system" behind them (and they certainly aren't archaic). If they're allowed on passports, then you can't say they're wrong. The government wouldn't allow those romanizations if they were wrong.

What "system" is that? Hepburn, Kunrei? I'm really not finding it. Besides, the Japanese government has only authorized that romanization on passports for people names. It would be incorrect to use it anywhere else.

That's a list of words that use "ou" to make an "ow" sound. That's not a good comparison. We need a list of ALL words with "ou" in them. So far I've not come across a non-Japanese-knowing person who would see "Gokou" and say GOH-KOH. Your argument isn't very good if you can only pretend you're a non-Japanese-knowing person. You need the minds of actual normal people.

You only know of two people that pronounce "GOKOU" as "Gokuu". I think you're arguement isn't very good. I'm giving you hard facts here; 148 English words that have "ou" in them, are pronounced as "ow". "House" and "out", two extremely common English words are pronounced this way. It's hard not to deny that "GOKOU" has a very high chance of being pronounced "Gokow". Don't believe me? Look at ShiningMoon's response.

And again, no, not necessarily. Examples were given on the first page. Come on.

Yes, by definition, they were romanizations. Whether they were correct or not, is a different story.

Excuse me, but who are you to tell what's "correct" or "incorrect", here?

I said they were incorrect because they do not conform to the standards of a particular romanization system.

[ShiningMoon]

Thanks for shore sharing your mindset.
But still... There are going to be people who will pronounce the "ou" like "ow" in cow, or the "ou" in country, or the "ou" in you, or the "ou" in sound. English just sucks that way. [. . .]

You're very welcome, and I agree that because of how screwed-up English is, people are bound (heh heh) to read "ou" differently. Heck, even as I read "Gokou" my mind tries to alternate between "Goh-kow" and "Go-koh." I can understand why any casual observer would see that spelling and think the "oo" sound. Maybe the important thing is that it's a lot more difficult to misread "Goku" (or even "Gokuu," though I think that maybe "Gokuh" would be pushing it for the typical English speaker who may be tempted to end it with the "uh" as in "dove" sound) -- that "Gokou" is not (based on what you guys have been saying) wrong, just less reliable.

[linkdude20002001]

What "system" is that? Hepburn, Kunrei? I'm really not finding it. Besides, the Japanese government has only authorized that romanization on passports for people names. It would be incorrect to use it anywhere else.

Why would it be incorrect anywhere else? I don't get why there are imaginary rules present that dictate how one romanizes.

You only know of two people that pronounce "GOKOU" as "Gokuu". I think you're arguement isn't very good. I'm giving you hard facts here; 148 English words that have "ou" in them, are pronounced as "ow". "House" and "out", two extremely common English words are pronounced this way. It's hard not to deny that "GOKOU" has a very high chance of being pronounced "Gokow". Don't believe me? Look at ShiningMoon's response.

ShiningMoon pronounced it with an OH sound, not a sound like in hOUse (or it seemed like it with his first message...). If you want to strengthen your argument, then try presenting words that END in "ou".

[Olivier Hague]

the Japanese government has only authorized that romanization on passports for people names. It would be incorrect to use it anywhere else.

Are you kidding me?

I said they were incorrect because they do not conform to the standards of a particular romanization system.

Even if they didn't, that wouldn't make them "incorrect".

Urgh. I give up, this is hopeless.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

ShiningMoon pronounced it with an OH sound, not a sound like in hOUse.

The point is he still mispronounced it.

If you want to strengthen your argument, then try presenting words that END in "ou".

It doesn't make a difference where the "ou" is placed in a word. The fact of the matter is that in most English words, "ou" is pronounced as "ow". I've found 148 words to support my claim and not even a quarter of that amount to support yours.

Are you kidding me?

No, I am not. Nice come back, BTW.

Even if they didn't, that wouldn't make them "incorrect".

It would. It's like saying that if I didn't follow the rules of conjugating verbs in Italian, the result would still be correct.

[linkdude20002001]

It doesn't make a difference where the "ou" is placed in a word. The fact of the matter is that in most English words, "ou" is pronounced as "ow". I've found 148 words to support my claim and not even a quarter of that amount to support yours.

Actually, it makes a lot of difference. When encountering new words, people tend to pronounce them as they would similar looking words. It's the reason we have people pronounce the spelling Frieza as one would the word fries. So, what does Gokou look like? You, caribou, and froufrou (and most words found here) end with an OO sound, while thou, the one and only word from your list that ended with "ou", pronounces it OW (as in "cow"). So, I believe that most people wouldn't think the Gokou spelling to be odd. In fact, it's quite logically the most obvious if you're trying to make it look "English".

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Why would it be incorrect anywhere else? I don't get why there are imaginary rules present that dictate how one romanizes.

There are no "imaginary rules". There are real rules that people actually follow.

Actually, it makes a lot of difference. When encountering new words, people tend to pronounce them as they would similar looking words. It's the reason we have people pronounce the spelling Frieza as one would the word fries. So, what does Gokou look like? You, caribou, and froufrou (and most words found here) end with an OO sound, while thou, the one and only word from your list that ended with "ou", pronounces it OW (as in "cow"). So, I believe that most people wouldn't think the Gokou spelling to be odd. In fact, it's quite logically the most obvious if you're trying to make it look "English".

But not the most obvious if you're trying to make it look like it's correct pronounciation. The fact still remains that "ou" can be pronounced three different ways in English, (the "ow" pronounciation being the most common and likely). By using "GOKOU" you're making the pronounciation of the word really ambiguous, thus defeating the purpose of the transliteration in the first place.


Urgh, I'm done also. We've just been going around in circles here, and I'm getting a headache. I've said all that I've needed to say, and the incorrect "GOKOU" spelling is filtered anyways.

[ChaojiShucaiRen]

Hey guys I am going to jump in if you don't mind. First off I can't really argue anything about japanese as I know so little but I will give an example of how transliterizations can be a good thing and sometimes can just be annoying.

So since Chinese is my forté, I will be using an example already illustrated in this thread.

Sūn​ Wù​kōng

Lets look at this word, most people would go ahead and pronounce sūn as "sun or son" just like our friendly star or like our progeny. But guess what? Its NOT pronounced that way and it never will be....it always will be pronounced "soon" in Chinese.

Let me give you an example the words "kung fu" are actually more accurately romanized (through pīn​yīn) as gōng​fu. Now pick it apart fu, "fu" is pronounced "foo" whether its in Chinese or English but going by english "logic" should it not be pronounced "fuh" just like sun is pronounced "suhn"?

Just like many people have stated on this forum; English is weird and has many rule breakers and many interpretations for the same word so I say just leave the original words alone (ironic- no actual "words" in Chinese or Japanese) and let a person either take the time to learn the correct pronunciation or let them go around saying it wrong until it eventually becomes known to them.

I say this because transliterations don't work; I wager that every single person on here or anywhere that doesn't know Chinese will still just see "Suhn" and still just transliterate that way.


Edit: I went back and reread what ShiningMoon was talking about and I more or less agree with what he is talking about. Again I will say that English is just weird. There are so many ways to pronounce things in English that it just gets insane.

In fact I've come across where pronouncing something a certain way depends on whre the grouping is placed in a sentence. Examples are a-plenty in the case we are talking about. Caribou has a "oo" pronunciation while bound has a "ow" sound.

Some might say well then when "ou" is placed at the end of a sentence it makes an "oo" or long u, but no, there is no such rule. In fact, you could make the argument that the word "caribou" isn't even orginally english and is actually French Canadian or native Algonquin language.

I did however notice that a word with old English roots, "thou" , is pronounced with the intended "ow" sound. But I digress, because I am sure there are plenty of words in the English language (that actually have there roots in Old English) that end in "ou" that are pronounced "oo" or with a long u.

So I will go back to what I was intially stating and say that the English language makes it very difficult to transliterate other languages especially east asian ones.

[ShiningMoon]

The point is he still mispronounced it.

I know the discussion you guys were having is decidedly "done," but I thought I'd point out that I am female for your future reference.

[Kendamu]

Even if they didn't, that wouldn't make them "incorrect".

It really sort of does. If I were in Japanese class and I had Romanized 孫悟空 as "Son Gokou," I'd be told that I was doing it wrong.

[linkdude20002001]

There are no "imaginary rules". There are real rules that people actually follow.

That's Hepburn romanization. What I'm saying is, there are no rules that say you have to use Hepburn romanization. As long as you aren't considering Son Gokou or Son Goka (or whatever) to be a rōmaji spelling of 孫悟空, then you're good.

But not the most obvious if you're trying to make it look like it's correct pronounciation. The fact still remains that "ou" can be pronounced three different ways in English, (the "ow" pronounciation being the most common and likely). By using "GOKOU" you're making the pronounciation of the word really ambiguous, thus defeating the purpose of the transliteration in the first place.

I don't get you. How does Son Gokou not "make it look like its correct pronunciation"? 99% of the words that end with "ou" are pronounced with an OO sound. It makes perfect sense; you're just choosing not to see it that way. Just look at ChaojiShucaiRen's example of kung fu and sun. Notice how the pronunciation of the "u" changes because it's at the end of a word. According to English rules, the "u" should be pronounced UH unless it's followed by a consonant and a vowel, in which case it would then change to an OO sound. But when put at the end of a word, no one would ever think to pronounce it like that. Kung fuh just sounds stupid.

[Kendamu]

I never saw "Gokou" as looking correct at all. Never, until I read this thread, did I think of the "ou" as the same "ou" in "you." It just seems extremely weird coming off of a consonant. I don't know why.

Really, though, there are modern grammatical rules to follow. Some of them vary lightly like using "arigatoo" instead of "arigatou" in the very first lessons before starting in on Hiragana and Katakana and not everybody even does that.

While "Gokou" could be considered valid in terms of the fact that it's been shown on nametags and products and stuff in the same way that "Goku" can be considered accurate due to it being official in the dub and VIZ manga, grammatically speaking "Gokou" is not proper Romanization and, had I never seen the "Gokou" spelling in context with Dragonball-related stuff, I would've definitely pronounced it "go-cow" before learning Japanese and "go-koh" after learning Japanese.

Even the word filter hates it!

[linkdude20002001]

That's why I said "As long as you aren't considering Son Gokou or Son Goka (or whatever) to be a rōmaji spelling of 孫悟空, then you're good". Son Gokou is a transliteration, not a direct romanization of the way it's written.

I don't know what you mean by it being "weird coming off of a consonant". Don't most words have vowels coming after a consonant? And how many words have you seen where it ends in "ou", but isn't pronounced OO?

[Olivier Hague]

It really sort of does. If I were in Japanese class and I had Romanized 孫悟空 as "Son Gokou," I'd be told that I was doing it wrong.

Because you'd better learn at least one romanization system, as a student of Japanese.
Because it's more convenient to have all students in a Japanese class use the same system.
Not because using a standardized system is an absolute rule.

Really, though, there are modern grammatical rules to follow.

I don't know why you're talking about grammar, here...
And again, there are no absolute rules as to how romanize Japanese. There are several systems out there that can help you with that and you can opt to pick one, but you don't have to.

Wikipedia pretty much covered that one, actually:

Non-standard romanization
In addition to the standardized systems above, there are many variations in romanization, used either for simplification, in error or confusion between different systems, or for deliberate stylistic reasons.

[Kendamu]

I don't know what you mean by it being "weird coming off of a consonant". Don't most words have vowels coming after a consonant? And how many words have you seen where it ends in "ou", but isn't pronounced OO?

I meant it more as in "ou" just doesn't naturally roll off my tongue as the "ou" in "you" when it comes after a "k." It just seems weird. That's all.

It really sort of does. If I were in Japanese class and I had Romanized 孫悟空 as "Son Gokou," I'd be told that I was doing it wrong.

Because you'd better learn at least one romanization system, as a student of Japanese.
Because it's more convenient to have all students in a Japanese class use the same system.
Not because using a standardized system is an absolute rule.

Really, though, there are modern grammatical rules to follow.

I don't know why you're talking about grammar, here...
And again, there are no absolute rules as to how romanize Japanese. There are several systems out there that can help you with that and you can opt to pick one, but you don't have to.

Wikipedia pretty much covered that one, actually:

Non-standard romanization
In addition to the standardized systems above, there are many variations in romanization, used either for simplification, in error or confusion between different systems, or for deliberate stylistic reasons.

I've really only run into one standard system between all Japanese-speaking people I know. I mean, it just makes sense to have ゴクウ spelled out as "Gokuu" when being literal because it's "go", "ku", and "u" and nothing else. Nowhere in that word is there a "ko" or an "ou."

I'm only being extremely technical for the sake of being technical, though. I can't really say, "You're wrong. Screw you," because I don't spell everything from Dragonball literally. Krillin and Bulma are great examples of what I use instead of their official Japanese names. I'm just throwing what I understand technically out there.

[Olivier Hague]

I've really only run into one standard system between all Japanese-speaking people I know. I mean, it just makes sense to have ゴクウ spelled out as "Gokuu" when being literal because it's "go", "ku", and "u" and nothing else.

You're apparently going for wāpuro rōmaji. It's a convenient (and relatively loose) system when you're using a computer or something like that (so it's widely used in that context at least), but it has its limits...