Timeline Discussion
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- Jerseymilk
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The alphabet consists of words now?
j/k
I figure this'll go on even years after EX says screw it and puts whatever he wants in his timeline section. He'll have 1-4 explained like in the daizenshuu, but then give a sidenote as to how the manga and anime would only give reference to 3, with a fourth TL explained only as a reference as to how TL3 Trunks went back in time. Meanwhile, we'll be here arguing over which Cell Junior survived in Timeline Delta to assimilate Majin Boo; only to have been defeated by SSJ3 Dai 2 Dankai Pan.
j/k
I figure this'll go on even years after EX says screw it and puts whatever he wants in his timeline section. He'll have 1-4 explained like in the daizenshuu, but then give a sidenote as to how the manga and anime would only give reference to 3, with a fourth TL explained only as a reference as to how TL3 Trunks went back in time. Meanwhile, we'll be here arguing over which Cell Junior survived in Timeline Delta to assimilate Majin Boo; only to have been defeated by SSJ3 Dai 2 Dankai Pan.
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- Jerseymilk
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My theory is to explain timelines 1-4 as the daizenshuu does, then explain how it created a recurring timeline plothole problem with a Cell arriving from a never mentioned TL5 into TL4, and top it all off with how the manga/anime explains the three (or four if you want to keep TL3 Trunks's trip unknown) TLs.
EX:
Daizenshuu-wise: Everything we've been arguing.
Manga-wise:
TL1 = manga/anime
TL2 = Mirai Trunks' TL (switch TL1 with 2 if you want, that's not important)
TL3 = Trunks goes into TL4, returns and 'somehow' destroys androids. Cell kills Trunks + swipes his time machine to end up in TL1.
TL4 = No details given by manga or anime, this is the timeline that TL3 Trunks goes to.
EX:
Daizenshuu-wise: Everything we've been arguing.
Manga-wise:
TL1 = manga/anime
TL2 = Mirai Trunks' TL (switch TL1 with 2 if you want, that's not important)
TL3 = Trunks goes into TL4, returns and 'somehow' destroys androids. Cell kills Trunks + swipes his time machine to end up in TL1.
TL4 = No details given by manga or anime, this is the timeline that TL3 Trunks goes to.
Captain Christopher Pike wrote:The away team will consist of myself, Cadet Kirk, Mr. Sulu, and Ensign Olsen.
The Geeky Gentleman: For all your comics, movies, TV and other geeky needs.Freeza Heika wrote: for the land of the cool, and the home of the Appule
- Jerseymilk
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If it weren't for the damn Cell Games in TL4 then the daizenshuu would have been dead on. Trunks + Krillin find remote plans, build remote, use it on androids. Cell matures 20 years later and results would be unknown THERE. Trunks returns to TL3, uses remote on androids, gets killed by Cell.
BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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- Jerseymilk
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The only thing you can do about the additional Cell Games problem is theoririze how Cell could achieve perfect form without #17 and #18. In which case, it will just stay a theory anyway, because we don't have anything concrete reference-wise. However, I suppose a plausible theory is better than nothing, at least it's some sort of answer, instead of saying,"Well, I have no idea how".
- Jerseymilk
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Ya I thought of the possibilty of Cell as already being perfect could be the explanation too, but the only problem with that is if Cell was already perfect in TL5, why come back to TL4? So now I'm thinking the only reason he might come back anyway is because maybe things went differently in TL5 such as he won the Cell games and killed everyone. Since though he's a sicko who loves testing his strength, heck maybe he thought "That was fun! Let's travel back in time and do it all over again!", I don't know! Another possibility could be that in TL5, Goku died of the heart virus after all, and since Cell would want to test his strength on the ultimate opponent, to him Goku, he'd have to travel back in time to do it. He could probably easily absorb #17 and #18, kill all the warriors, including Gohan, Vegita, and Trunks, since they probably wouldn't find out about the Room of Spirit and Time, so they couldn't up their strength enough to beat him. After everyone had been killed, he would take Trunks' time machine back into the past, so he could hopefully fight against Goku before he died. Is this making any sense guys? I just don't know, I'm trying to make it so the daizenshuu can work with the TL description we already have. Anyone else have any ideas?
There are really only two areas that the Daizenshuu explanation is a a bit...dodgy, really. All the information given about Timeline 4 (when we are given nothing in the show), and the fact that Timeline 3 Trunks destroyed the Androids via remote control (when again, the show doesn't say how he did it. Or even if it was him). But the stuff about timelines 1 and 2 (or 2 and 1) we all seem to be in agreement on.
Now, there are only two things left that confuse me and that don't seem to have an explanation:
1/ Why was alt-Trunks' timemachine set to 1 year before he turned up the "first" time? (With the only answer that I can think of being that Cell somehow knocked the controls when he got in. Although that's quite weak.)
2/ How comes that the same time machine Trunks used to go to timeline 4 ended up in the main anime timeline when Cell used it? If he hasn't, would alt-Trunks have come to the same timeline as regular Future Trunks (ie, ours)? (And again, the only real explanation I can think of is that time machines only return to timelines/dimensions they've previously visited if the same person is piloting them.)
Now, there are only two things left that confuse me and that don't seem to have an explanation:
1/ Why was alt-Trunks' timemachine set to 1 year before he turned up the "first" time? (With the only answer that I can think of being that Cell somehow knocked the controls when he got in. Although that's quite weak.)
2/ How comes that the same time machine Trunks used to go to timeline 4 ended up in the main anime timeline when Cell used it? If he hasn't, would alt-Trunks have come to the same timeline as regular Future Trunks (ie, ours)? (And again, the only real explanation I can think of is that time machines only return to timelines/dimensions they've previously visited if the same person is piloting them.)
Last edited by PsyLiam on Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"1/ Why was alt-Trunks' timemachine set to 1 year before he turned up the "first" time? (With the only answer that I can think of being that Cell someone knocked the controls when he got in. Although that's quite weak.) "
Chalk THAT one up to unfixable plotholes, I dont think Toriyanma thought that one through, but Cell knocking controls does make sense...
"2/ How comes that the same time machine Trunks used to go to timeline 4 ended up in the main anime timeline when Cell used it? If he hasn't, would alt-Trunks have come to the same timeline as regular Future Trunks (ie, ours)? (And again, the only real explanation I can think of is that time machines only return to timelines/dimensions they've previously visited if the same person is piloting them.)"
Fluke accident? Perhaps cell DID bump controls that could answer both.
Chalk THAT one up to unfixable plotholes, I dont think Toriyanma thought that one through, but Cell knocking controls does make sense...
"2/ How comes that the same time machine Trunks used to go to timeline 4 ended up in the main anime timeline when Cell used it? If he hasn't, would alt-Trunks have come to the same timeline as regular Future Trunks (ie, ours)? (And again, the only real explanation I can think of is that time machines only return to timelines/dimensions they've previously visited if the same person is piloting them.)"
Fluke accident? Perhaps cell DID bump controls that could answer both.
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- TripleRach
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I think I have an answer for this...PsyLiam wrote:2/ How comes that the same time machine Trunks used to go to timeline 4 ended up in the main anime timeline when Cell used it? If he hasn't, would alt-Trunks have come to the same timeline as regular Future Trunks (ie, ours)? (And again, the only real explanation I can think of is that time machines only return to timelines/dimensions they've previously visited if the same person is piloting them.)
Cell travelled back to one year before Trunks killed Freeza, right? If he had also went to Timeline 4, the same as Trunks, then he would have already been in Timeline 4 before Trunks got there. For Cell to have already been there before Trunks is impossible, since Dragon Ball obviously doesn't use the Bill & Ted-style of time travel... It seems that Cell's having gone back in time is actually what created Timeline 2, our main anime/manga timeline.
And it's a damn good thing Dragon Ball doesn't use Bill & Ted-style time travel, because that would probably give us even worse headaches.
I tend to agree with you, but this is where I have problems with the daizenshuu. Timelines 1 and 3 are pretty similar, and are both "future timelines" (for want of a better word). The difference between them is that Trunks is killed in one.
A similar thing happens to timelines 2 and 4. Except that (originally, in my mind), Timeline 4 only had Trunks travelling to it, whereas timeline 2 had Trunks AND Cell travelling to it. That made sense. But the Daizenshuu insists that timeline 4 had a Cell, so one had to have travelled there as well, and who's to say that he didn't arrive before Trunks did too?
And remember that, in our timeline, Cell was there before Trunks. Somehow.
A similar thing happens to timelines 2 and 4. Except that (originally, in my mind), Timeline 4 only had Trunks travelling to it, whereas timeline 2 had Trunks AND Cell travelling to it. That made sense. But the Daizenshuu insists that timeline 4 had a Cell, so one had to have travelled there as well, and who's to say that he didn't arrive before Trunks did too?
And remember that, in our timeline, Cell was there before Trunks. Somehow.
The episode where Trunks and Kuririn destroy Gero's lab was on today, and I realised something that further messes things up:
Okay, the Daizenshuu maintains that alt-Trunks from timeline 3 destroys the androids via remote control (as oppossed to our Trunks, who just beats the stuffing out of them). We assume that this remote control is made by Bulma from plans that Trunks got in timeline 4, right?
Except that the plans for android 17 were in Gero's undergroud lab, where Cell was stored. And we were assuming that alt-Trunks never met Cell (as his reaction to seeing him, and quick death implies). But there's no way that alt-Trunks would have gone to Gero's laboratory and not been in the last bit curious about the small larvae thing growing behind him.
Okay, the Daizenshuu maintains that alt-Trunks from timeline 3 destroys the androids via remote control (as oppossed to our Trunks, who just beats the stuffing out of them). We assume that this remote control is made by Bulma from plans that Trunks got in timeline 4, right?
Except that the plans for android 17 were in Gero's undergroud lab, where Cell was stored. And we were assuming that alt-Trunks never met Cell (as his reaction to seeing him, and quick death implies). But there's no way that alt-Trunks would have gone to Gero's laboratory and not been in the last bit curious about the small larvae thing growing behind him.
- Jerseymilk
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It could be that he got the plans some other way, such as Buruma somehow figured out how they work and built a remote, she is very talented. That seems unlikely though since I rememeber when she's studying #17's plans, she remarks that Gero was a genius and that their construction seems very complex.