Bad guys gone good

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:24 pm

Another DB trend: evil people becoming good!

1: Yamcha!
2: Oolong
3: Blond Lunch (in the sense that she doesn't attack the good guys after the 21st budoukai saga is over)
4: Chaozu and Tenshinhan
5: Piccolo jr.
6: Vegeta
7: Androids 17 and 18
8: Boo

Am I forgetting anybody?

SonGohan-san · Post by **SonGohan-san** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:46 pm

Yeah, that's a good point. But I'd just say they were all antagonists in general. To put Lunch and Vegita in the same league and call them "evil" is absurd. Hell, even Mr. Satan and Yajarobe were antagonists similiar to Oolong and Yamucha. But I still see your overall point so I'll just shut up now.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:17 am

You forgot about #16 Dayspring.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:46 am

Did #16 ever actually do anything "evil"? I mean, Yamcha attacked Goku, Oolong tried to frighten them and all, but #16 just stood around looking at birds (and not in a Cockney way).

Along those lines, did #17 really become good? I thought that he just buggered off into the mountains until he was dragged out for GT. That's not really "good". That's "indifferent".

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:54 am

Well #16 was originally programmed to kill Goku and even when Gero was dead he still planned to do it. It was only when Cell came along that he decided to go against his programming and fight Cell instead.

SonGohan-san · Post by **SonGohan-san** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:06 am

The Capsole Corp. reprogrammed him. He didn't just "decide" to go against his no.1 mission.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:17 am

But apart from standing around saying "I'm going to kill Goku", and "You're not Goku. I want to kill Goku, not you. Since you are not he who I speak of, I shall not kill you, instead focussing my killing powers on the one known as Goku. Who I am going to kill. Not you"...

*pause for breath*

...did he actually do anything, y'know, evil? Hit someone? Blow something up? Anything?

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am

In that case Liam, you are indeed correct.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:16 am

I wonder how much reprogramming they had to do, anyway? He was hardly the most violent of "bad guys".

Maybe he had a big switch inside him with two options: "Kill Goku", and "Play with birds".

And weren't you going to bed?

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:20 am

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...............Wuh! Where am I? Did I fall asleep? What time is it?

Yes I actually did go to bed after I wrote that last post, and a good sleep it was too. Except that all I dreamt of was alternate DBZ timelines and #16 up in the trees singing with the birds.

By the way, it occured to me that while #16 didn't do anything evil, he did do some naughty things, like dumping out all of those supplies from that van they stole, and breaking his handcuffs and disobeying the police. At the least, he should've had to go stand in the corner. I think Dr. Briefs should have programmed him to do that.

Jakez04 · Post by **Jakez04** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:33 pm

You forgot Dabura.

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:11 pm

Don't forget Ha-chan! (Android 8)

#16... Why the heck didn't anyone wish him back? They had three wishes. It seems Toriyama forgot that little detail... -_-

Post by **TripleRach** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:45 pm

They should have wished back #16 instead of removing the bombs from #17 and #18. It's all Kuririn's fault he stayed dead.

SonGohan-san · Post by **SonGohan-san** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:02 pm

Alias wrote:Don't forget Ha-chan! (Android

#16... Why the heck didn't anyone wish him back? They had three wishes. It seems Toriyama forgot that little detail... -_-

Not true. Dende's dragon is different than Saichoru (or Guru's) dragon, which had Porunga.

I think this is something how it went:

Kami-samma's Shenlong-- One wish per year; could wish multiple people back in one wish is the cause of death is related.

Saichoru's Porunga-- Three wishes per every Namekian year (180 earth days) Can only wish one person back per wish.

Dende's Shenlong-- Two wishes per every earth year (I think, anyways) and, like Kami-samma's dragon, can bring multiple people back from the dead if the cause is related.

So, at the end of the Cell Saga, they used all the wishes that were available to them at that time, I think.

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:15 pm

I just reread that part in the manga. You're right, Dende's dragon gives only two wishes. My mistake. -_-

However, nobody even made any mention of 16, nor thought of wishing him back. When they were trying to figure out how to use their last wish, Yamucha even suggested wishing for a diamond necklace for his girlfriend. It's kinda like they forgot about the poor guy...

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:52 pm

I can just picture #16 up in heaven. "Nooo! Don't wish little ol' ME back! Afterall I never did anything wrong. In fact, other than being the inspiration for Gohan to go SSJ2 I didn't do anything at all! Sure, wish for a necklace you ungrateful bastich! Shoulda killed Goku like my programming told me to."

As for #8, he never did anything wrong either so I didn't put him in the list. He was designed to be bad, but I guess Gero didn't know how to program back then: first thing he does is team up with Goku.

SonGohan-san · Post by **SonGohan-san** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:43 pm

I don't know if I'm taking these posts too literally but, No. 16 is completely robotic, as in not artificial human like the other two. Thus, I can't see how he'd have a soul or be in heaven for that matter. Though, he was great character, I liked him staying "dead". This seemed to make Gohans SS2 indignance more meaningful. Just my opinion, though.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:53 pm

I agree with SonGohan-San's posts. What those characters truly have in common is that they were all antagonists, not that they were all evil. Some were evil, but most of them were not. Oh, and...

Dabura? What are you, crazy? He resisted Majin Buu, but he certainly did not convert to the side of good. Actually, he did get a little messed up in the afterlife after being thrown in heaven, but that was just some disturbing filler scene.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:33 am

SonGohan-san wrote:Thus, I can't see how he'd have a soul or be in heaven for that matter. Though, he was great character, I liked him staying "dead". This seemed to make Gohans SS2 indignance more meaningful. Just my opinion, though.

It's like Data all over again...

As to him staying dead, I agree. The effect of Kuririn being killed be Freeza was slightly negated by the knowledge that he was going to be wished back 15 episodes later.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:45 am

Don't say that Psyliam! Data's not dead! His parts are just floating in space and they'll gather them up and put them back together! You'll see!

As for your point about Kuririn's death not being as meaningful, your forgetting that at the time, no one knew that all the Nameks and their dragonballs would be transported to Earth, allowing them to wish Kuririn back. Senchirou had died, the Namek dragonballs were no more, they only had Earth's dragonballs. They had already wished Kuririn back to life once with them during DB, so when Freeza killed him, at that point, there was no way to bring him back. So at that instant, everyone knew he was gone for good.

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Bad guys gone good

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