Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Hmm. I'll have to rewatch this whole segment. But what about the sparring later? Didn't Piccolo Vs Gohan suggest they were on par with each other later?

Piccolo was training Gohan from the basics, so he wasn’t being serious about it. Gohan gets it when Goku picks up Piccolo as the 5th fighter on his place. But when the stakes are high Piccolo humbles Gohan in almost all his forms.

[ZombieVito]

So you think the only reason Gohan did well against a stronger Tagoma is because he caught him off guard and that Base Gohan doesn't actually outperform Piccolo?

He did well?

Hmm. I'll have to rewatch this whole segment. But what about the sparring later? Didn't Piccolo Vs Gohan suggest they were on par with each other later?

Piccolo was training Gohan from the basics, so he wasn’t being serious about it. Gohan gets it when Goku picks up Piccolo as the 5th fighter on his place. But when the stakes are high Piccolo humbles Gohan in almost all his forms.

I was rewatching this episode yesterday and something caught my eye. Gohan is never surprised Piccolo is beating him while he's transformed into a Super Saiyan. It's only when he transforms into a Super Saiyan 2 and Piccolo grabs him that he comments about Piccolo's strength in amazement.

If Piccolo was weaker than base Gohan just months ago, why isn't he surprised when Super Saiyan isn't cutting it against him?

[Koitsukai]

Wait, am I missing something or people were actually using the anime scene of the retelling of RoF to discredit a line from a movie written by Toriyama himself?
They were using TOEI to prove Toriyama wrong?

[PowerLevelGuy]

I'll have to look into the anime portion again. Toriyama's own script served to show that Base Gohan > Piccolo was the case.

[ZombieVito]

I'm looking for opinions on this so how strong would you have these guys on the Mecha Freeza arc?

Son Goku:
-- Super Saiyan:
Future Trunks:
-- Super Saiyan:
Freeza [Mecha]:
King Cold:
Vegeta:
Piccolo:
Son Gohan:
Krillin:
Tenshinhan:
Yamcha:
Chiaotzu:

P.S. Using the official power levels (150 million for Namek SS Goku and 120 million for Freeza) as a basis of course.

[Koitsukai]

I'm looking for opinions on this so how strong would you have these guys on the Mecha Freeza arc?

Son Goku: 3,7M
-- Super Saiyan: 185M
Future Trunks: 3,5M
-- Super Saiyan: 175M
Freeza [Mecha]: 150M (Gohan says he is stronger than before, right? but not strong enough to come alone)
King Cold: 90-160M (They say he is stronger than his son, but he never even attempts to fight Trunks. He could also be stronger than a suppressed Mecha Freeza but weaker than his FP, or a coward)
Vegeta: 3M (the implication is that without Goku nobody can stand up to him)
Piccolo: 2,5M (peaked at almost 2M on Namek)
Son Gohan: 1M (had bursts on Namek over the 1M mark)
Krillin: 100k (was said to be 75k on Namek, although, kinda low considering he didn't immediately die after being ran over a by +1M Freeza)
Tenshinhan: 60k (enough to beat Jeese and Burta)
Yamcha: 50k (enough to beat Recoome)
Chiaotzu: 10k (enough to beat Gurdo)

P.S. Using the official power levels (150 million for Namek SS Goku and 120 million for Freeza) as a basis of course.

[ZombieVito]

I'm looking for opinions on this so how strong would you have these guys on the Mecha Freeza arc?

Son Goku: 3,7M
-- Super Saiyan: 185M
Future Trunks: 3,5M
-- Super Saiyan: 175M
Freeza [Mecha]: 150M (Gohan says he is stronger than before, right? but not strong enough to come alone)
King Cold: 90-160M (They say he is stronger than his son, but he never even attempts to fight Trunks. He could also be stronger than a suppressed Mecha Freeza but weaker than his FP, or a coward)
Vegeta: 3M (the implication is that without Goku nobody can stand up to him)
Piccolo: 2,5M (peaked at almost 2M on Namek)
Son Gohan: 1M (had bursts on Namek over the 1M mark)
Krillin: 100k (was said to be 75k on Namek, although, kinda low considering he didn't immediately die after being ran over a by +1M Freeza)
Tenshinhan: 60k (enough to beat Jeese and Burta)
Yamcha: 50k (enough to beat Recoome)
Chiaotzu: 10k (enough to beat Gurdo)

P.S. Using the official power levels (150 million for Namek SS Goku and 120 million for Freeza) as a basis of course.

Glad someone else uses the Ginyu filler. It's one of the few that's really good but didn't Tenshinhan split in 2 and was still beating Jeice and Burter? That would make him at least 90,000.

[Koitsukai]

I don’t recall that scene in detail, but in that case yeah, although Tenshinhan being equal to Namek Goku seems a bit too much. I can’t remember if there’s enough room to have him at 80k and let his expertise do the rest, but being on Goku's level isn't that crazy either, everybody surpasses him like 2 hours later.

Being twice as strong as Yamcha also makes sense, and at the same time being half-ish as powerful as Piccolo when revived.

[Mr Perfect Cell]

I'm looking for opinions on this so how strong would you have these guys on the Mecha Freeza arc?

Son Goku:
-- Super Saiyan:
Future Trunks:
-- Super Saiyan:
Freeza [Mecha]:
King Cold:
Vegeta:
Piccolo:
Son Gohan:
Krillin:
Tenshinhan:
Yamcha:
Chiaotzu:

P.S. Using the official power levels (150 million for Namek SS Goku and 120 million for Freeza) as a basis of course.

Straight from my pl list from a year ago

Son Goku: 3.3 mil
-- Super Saiyan: 165 mil
Future Trunks: 3.12 mil
-- Super Saiyan: 156 mil
Freeza [Mecha]: 130 mil
King Cold: 100 mil
Vegeta: 2.7 mil
Piccolo: 2.7 mil
Son Gohan: 1.125 mil
Krillin: 1 mil
Tenshinhan: 900k
Yamcha: 750k
Chiaotzu: 250k

[RandomGuy96]

I'm looking for opinions on this so how strong would you have these guys on the Mecha Freeza arc?

Son Goku:
-- Super Saiyan:
Future Trunks:
-- Super Saiyan:
Freeza [Mecha]:
King Cold:
Vegeta:
Piccolo:
Son Gohan:
Krillin:
Tenshinhan:
Yamcha:
Chiaotzu:

P.S. Using the official power levels (150 million for Namek SS Goku and 120 million for Freeza) as a basis of course.

I'm going to kind of hijack this but I think, at least now, Toriyama clearly thinks of the humans (and Gohan and Piccolo, sometimes) as super fucking weak. I was reviewing the only fight they ever get post-Freeza, the one in Resurrection F, and...

Krillin (strongest Earthling) is scared of five Freeza soldiers. He nervously jerks around to dodge their attacks. He credits Gohan with saving his life when he throws him out of the way of a Freeza soldier's attack. He runs out of energy by the end of the fight, dispatching these Freeza soldiers. These soldiers are explicitly weaklings compared to the old ones, who themselves are on average weaker than Raditz. Jaco, who is so pathetically weak that he doesn't fancy his chances against the average prepubescent Saiyan, can still beat them easily. They KO themselves by slamming into rocks (softly enough not to break the rocks). They can't lift Piccolo's cape, which itself doesn't, like, create a crater when it falls on the floor. They get killed by the dozen by the local wildlife of Earth.

If you asked Toriyama I honestly think he'd favor Piccolo Daimao against any human character right now. Call it a retcon, assume they got weaker, whatever. I don't see any other reasonable conclusion based on their showings. In the manga Super Hero arc we also have stuff like Krillin being unable to out juke a tiny robot bee or easily catch a speeding car, getting wounded by bullets, and resorting to his regular-ass gun to take out the bee. I doubt that bee is as fast as Captain Ginyu or whatever.

[ZombieVito]

I'm looking for opinions on this so how strong would you have these guys on the Mecha Freeza arc?

Son Goku:
-- Super Saiyan:
Future Trunks:
-- Super Saiyan:
Freeza [Mecha]:
King Cold:
Vegeta:
Piccolo:
Son Gohan:
Krillin:
Tenshinhan:
Yamcha:
Chiaotzu:

P.S. Using the official power levels (150 million for Namek SS Goku and 120 million for Freeza) as a basis of course.

I'm going to kind of hijack this but I think, at least now, Toriyama clearly thinks of the humans (and Gohan and Piccolo, sometimes) as super fucking weak. I was reviewing the only fight they ever get post-Freeza, the one in Resurrection F, and...

Krillin (strongest Earthling) is scared of five Freeza soldiers. He nervously jerks around to dodge their attacks. He credits Gohan with saving his life when he throws him out of the way of a Freeza soldier's attack. He runs out of energy by the end of the fight, dispatching these Freeza soldiers. These soldiers are explicitly weaklings compared to the old ones, who themselves are on average weaker than Raditz. Jaco, who is so pathetically weak that he doesn't fancy his chances against the average prepubescent Saiyan, can still beat them easily. They KO themselves by slamming into rocks (softly enough not to break the rocks). They can't lift Piccolo's cape, which itself doesn't, like, create a crater when it falls on the floor. They get killed by the dozen by the local wildlife of Earth.

If you asked Toriyama I honestly think he'd favor Piccolo Daimao against any human character right now. Call it a retcon, assume they got weaker, whatever. I don't see any other reasonable conclusion based on their showings. In the manga Super Hero arc we also have stuff like Krillin being unable to out juke a tiny robot bee or easily catch a speeding car, getting wounded by bullets, and resorting to his regular-ass gun to take out the bee. I doubt that bee is as fast as Captain Ginyu or whatever.

Toriyama does say in his script that Freeza's army has powerful mercenaries so Krillin must have been fighting them. Shisami is even one of them. Toei surprisingly didn't convey this very well in the film and outright makes an error having Shisami compared to Zarbon and Dodoria.

Hedo created androids who are SSB level (And UI level with Cell Max) so as funny as it is, I don't see it as impossible for the bee to be Namek Freeza level.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Fight sequences in the movies are written by the animators, not Toriyama.

I do get the feeling that Toriyama underestimated the cast in RoF, but we know that's now how it goes anyway. Kuririn being a coward is nowhere near as direct as the 1.3 million line, which everybody knows is bull. What's next? Tien > Kuririn because he could actually fight the soldiers?

[RandomGuy96]

Toriyama does say in his script that Freeza's army has powerful mercenaries so Krillin must have been fighting them.

So? Sorbet castigates their army in general, not specific aspects of it, and none of the soldiers seem noticeably more powerful than any of the other soldiers. Those same guys KO themselves by ramming into a rock. The rock doesn't even shatter. Krillin himself is hurt by slamming into a regular tree, without breaking the tree. Actually "hurt" is understating it: the impact basically incapacitates him and he goes limp and falls like a rock, and then credits Gohan with saving his life when he prevents him from hitting the ground.

Shisami is even one of them. Toei surprisingly didn't convey this very well in the film and outright makes an error having Shisami compared to Zarbon and Dodoria.

That's the thing, I don't think this is an error. Piccolo's just weak. He tires himself out fighting people considerably weaker than Raditz, then loses decisively to a guy on par with Zarbon. Zarbon-tier-guy is then beaten by Gohan, who has to go Super Saiyan to do it (after being unsure if he even can), which gasses him out and makes him drop out of it. Meanwhile Freeza at an explicitly given power level of 1.3 million is an untouchable god to everyone there. I used to think that was an error, but now I don't. 1.3 million is just genuinely far above what anyone there is capable of.

There's nothing inconsistent about it. The characters are just weak. The only thing it contradicts is the common fan assumption that all characters get continuously stronger (and this probably requires rewriting our understanding of how power levels even work, but that's a story for another day).

Hedo created androids who are SSB level (And UI level with Cell Max) so as funny as it is, I don't see it as impossible for the bee to be Namek Freeza level.

Bro, seriously. You're smarter than this. Freeza can fly at hypersonic speeds, blow up islands by waving his hand, toss mountains with his mind, and shrugs off being at the epicenter of blasts that makes the ground look like it was hit by a bunch of nukes or being kicked hard enough to go through several hundred meters of rock. Meanwhile, the bee in Super chapter 91:

-Fails to noticeably outpace a regular car during it and Krillin's fight.

-Is damaged and incapacitated by a single shot from a regular handgun.

-Is still powerful enough to give Krillin a tough fight and knock him out.

This is actually perfectly consistent with, say, Krillin getting wounded by bullets and being unable to easily take out some robbers. Or hurting himself by running into a tree, or having trouble with guys who get slaughtered by the local wildlife. He's just weak. Toriyama has thought of him as such since at least the Android arc, where we have stuff like him only being able to outfly a plane if he puts his full effort into it (and even then not by a lot) and being unable to destroy the door to Gero's lab. It's not even a particularly big and thick door.

[Noah]

Seeing how M13 Gohan could one-shot Freeza which probably means he was on his ultimate state, would you say that first form ROF Freeza could 'return the gift' to the same Gohan or he would still need to transform to do so?

[Kaboom]

Gohan in Movie 12 definitely wasn't his post-ritual Ultimate self. But Freeza in Movie 12 also definitely wasn't at 100% either.

[QuakingStar]

Hmm. I'll have to rewatch this whole segment. But what about the sparring later? Didn't Piccolo Vs Gohan suggest they were on par with each other later?

Piccolo was training Gohan from the basics, so he wasn’t being serious about it. Gohan gets it when Goku picks up Piccolo as the 5th fighter on his place. But when the stakes are high Piccolo humbles Gohan in almost all his forms.

I somehow missed this comment, but yeah Piccolo made massive gains in power after RoF and even again after U6 v U7. SS2 Gohan wasn't even a problem for him.

[Noah]

Gohan in Movie 12 definitely wasn't his post-ritual Ultimate self. But Freeza in Movie 12 also definitely wasn't at 100% either.

What makes you think that?

But speaking on the subject: if post-ritual Gohan was just a big increase to his base form, how strong he would be if he could go SSJ and SSJ2 while on Ultimate?

[Grimlock]

For one, because Gohan retains his usual bang and a tiny strand of hair. Characteristics of his base form:



If done correctly, Gohan loses the tiny strand of hair and his bang becomes bigger (it also changes sides when viewed from the front) after transforming into Ultimate:




For another, it is possible Movie 12 was already in production by the time Ultimate Gohan debuted in the manga, the chapter was released in November 1994, whereas the movie was released in March 1995.

[DanielSSJ]

I'd also that Gohan didn't have the fully outlined Super Saiyan-style eyes. Dead giveaway that he's not in Ultimate.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, basically. He's not drawn as Ultimate, and the production dates don't really line up.

But now I'm wondering if Gohan's ability to one-hit-asplode Freeza was inspired by the power he showed when he got impatient and powered up halfway through the ritual...