Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kaboom]

It's a disservice and has riled up a debate that was once dead.

Now THAT'S wishful thinking. Plenty of people already proposed or were at least fine with the notion that the Boo-era base Saiyans weren't quite on Freeza's level yet, and it was no less reasonable than the opposite idea. The fairly direct line from Beerus in 2013 really didn't do anything but reinforce it. A topic of discussion isn't "dead" just because a small subset of people decide that their take on it is the only "logical" one and everyone else is just fooling themselves or something.

[Mireya]

It's a disservice and has riled up a debate that was once dead.

Now THAT'S wishful thinking. Plenty of people already proposed or were at least fine with the notion that the Boo-era base Saiyans weren't quite on Freeza's level yet, and it was no less reasonable than the opposite idea. The fairly direct line from Beerus in 2013 really didn't do anything but reinforce it. A topic of discussion isn't "dead" just because a small subset of people decide that their take on it is the only "logical" one and everyone else is just fooling themselves or something.

But which basis did they have for believing Freeza was above base Saiyans without the Beerus' line? I see only the potential for base Saiyans not growing any stronger after achieving the SSJ...

[Mireya]

It's not like beyond the BoG's line, there's any more glarring evidence for Freeza > base Saiyans, quite the contrary...

And even that line is questionable, because:

• Beerus so far cannot and does not have the ability to say how strong someone is with accuracy just by looking or poking a person.
• Beerus' line came before his fight began, not after it ended.
• Beerus' line came after he saw Goku changing into Super Saiyan to defeat Freeza through Whis' staff earlier in the movie.

Other things to consider is that stuff will, for the vast majority of time, be taken at face value by the people of this fanbase. Which can lead into misunderstanding/misinterpreting. Also, I have been told that that line was delivered in present tense in Japanese, which could explain this endless debate, but there is more to unpack here. Like, this is the same language that seemingly doesn't have plural, I wouldn't be surprised if it also doesn't have past tense as well.

Yeah and not to mention that Beerus' examining Goku's body could be taken as him comparing it to what he saw in Whis' crystal ball, so since he noticed different body features by examining Goku's body (perhaps it's the 3rd point you raised, in which case I'll be just repeating it, my bad), it didn't LOOK as the one who defeated Freeza. If I'm not mistaken, Beerus even says Goku doesn't APPEAR as capable of defeating Freeza. Goku could have proved him wrong by making a point that his base state was also capable of such, I guess... But maybe Goku just didn't care as Beerus would see how capable he was anyway... Making a point by showing the power of this weakest state only so Beerus recognized this ability as base would be pedantic of him.

Besides isn't Goku implied to be above Gotenks and Gohan in the movie? Beerus says after fighting enraged Vegeta he's had more fun than with Goku... Uhh wouldn't the fun he has be associated with someone's strength? Why would he have more fun with Goku if he were still way weaker than Gotenks and Gohan? If base Gotenks was already strong to a point that Piccolo was pushed back A LOT more than when sensing the SSJ kids when Gotenks wasn't even exerting himself... Plus, Piccolo not attempting to stop base Gotenks when he went to fight fat Boo (which he logically would do if he were able to), then it'd seem absurd for base Gotenks to be below Freeza, and thus base Goku, who's implied in the movie to be the strongest after enraged Vegeta.

[Koitsukai]

In what chapter did we get to read the list of Beerus' limited techniques explaining that he CANNOT read power levels through a certain mean? I skipped that one, for sure.

If a 24 yo. Goku can touch your head and see how your week went in good detail, then the ancient, strongest and highest authority in the universe can gauge your power by just approaching you. It's that simple.

[Mireya]

In what chapter did we get to read the list of Beerus' limited techniques explaining that he CANNOT read power levels through a certain mean? I skipped that one, for sure.

If a 24 yo. Goku can touch your head and see how your week went in good detail, then the ancient, strongest and highest authority in the universe can gauge your power by just approaching you. It's that simple.

Why wouldn't he just touch Goku's head rather than examining his body? It seems he even poked his body... Seems like he wanted to examine body's features like muscles, arms' length... Unless someone's muscle rigidity can tell whether they're capable of beating Freeza or not. Well, maybe it can, dunno. But still, Beerus said Goku didn't APPEAR as someone capable of defeating Freeza as far as I remember. Goku was also hiding from Beerus before... He had no reason to be fully reveled up in base there. Maybe Beerus can still tell how strong he is, and that was the point of the examining instead. Ok, I see that as a powerful evidence for base < Freeza weren't for the implications of Goku > Gotenks in the same movie (it makes 0 sense for base Gotenks... Much less post RoSaT Gotenks... To be below Freeza) and weren't for the RoF implications of an untrained base Gohan being above Piccolo... And some very good and clear evidences from the manga.

[PowerLevelGuy]

Well people have been at odds on this issue for a long time. But the evidence has always been on the Base > Freeza side. Out the gate. The Base kids, who are weak, are on par with Android 18, even according to the Daizenshuu. Vegeta outright states he can win the tournament in Base while sitting no less than 10 feet from Android 18. The amount of pretzel-ing one had to do to try to make these mean anything other than what was suggested was seen as an extreme view. At least in my circles. I can only speak from my experience, yours could be completely different then mine.

The Freeza > Base narrative called for a complete redefining of the entire narrative of the entire first half of the Buu Saga.

All in all, the Kid Gohan > RoF Gohan > Piccolo segment of RoF has finally completely solidified the original intention of the Buu Saga Base Saiyan range of power. Right? Or are we still trying to make Beerus' line combat the literal wave of evidence on the other end?

[Kaboom]

But which basis did they have for believing Freeza was above base Saiyans without the Beerus' line?

You'll have to ask Toriyama that, not me. Because he said he re-read the original manga either prior to or during his contribution to Battle of Gods, and then he proceeded to either write the "Freeza > Base Goku" line himself or simply allowed it to remain if it came from Watanabe. So if Toriyama didn't see anything from his own pen that disallowed the concept, then I don't see why any of us should fuss over it either.

If a 24 yo. Goku can touch your head and see how your week went in good detail, then the ancient, strongest and highest authority in the universe can gauge your power by just approaching you. It's that simple.

Not to mention that from a narrative angle, if the line was somehow meant to be wrong without the audience ever being told or shown that it's wrong, then it'd have no reason to be in the movie to begin with. We don't need to know how Beerus determines that Goku can't beat Freeza without transforming, because it's not important.

The Freeza > Base narrative called for a complete redefining of the entire narrative of the entire first half of the Buu Saga.

No it didn't. It merely upset the somewhat myopic conclusions of a small handful of number-crunching fans.

[Mireya]

You'll have to ask Toriyama that, not me. Because he said he re-read the original manga either prior to or during his contribution to Battle of Gods, and then he proceeded to either write the "Freeza > Base Goku" line himself or simply allowed it to remain if it came from Watanabe. So if Toriyama didn't see anything from his own pen that disallowed the concept, then I don't see why any of us should fuss over it either

No, I mean, what were the basis for fans to believe base Saiyans < Freeza before the movie came out? I think the base hitting a limit being a prerequisite for SSJ being the most possible reason, but don't you have them almost reaching the 100,000,000?

[PowerLevelGuy]

Yeah, as far as I know, Freeza > Base Saiyans had no real evidence other than fan theory. There were no real statements like how Base > Freeza had. The Beerus' line breathed new life into the debate.

[Hugo Boss]

Funny enough, as far as I remember, there is nothing in the original manga suggesting Base Saiyans surpassed Freeza, so seeing such bold claims coming from someone called the PowerLevelGuy must not be a good sign…

[Kaboom]

Yeah, there's admittedly a handful of things in the Boo arc that can be taken to imply the base Saiyans are beyond the likes of Freeza, if one chooses to interpret them that way. But there's nothing that outright states or proves it, or that should outweigh a direct statement to the contrary like the one from Beerus. There's also things that can be interpreted to the contrary, that the Saiyans aren't that strong. It was never anything resembling a "done deal"

[QuakingStar]

I sincerely doubt that BoG Base Saiyans were stronger than Frieza. Goku in base in the Frieza Saga was at 3,000,000 and I've seen no actual evidence to believe he had gotten over 40x stronger in base form from then to the BoG events, and only one line that seems to just be an exaggeration concerning Shin's power.

[Grimlock]

Yeah and not to mention that Beerus' examining Goku's body could be taken as him comparing it to what he saw in Whis' crystal ball, so since he noticed different body features by examining Goku's body (perhaps it's the 3rd point you raised, in which case I'll be just repeating it, my bad), it didn't LOOK as the one who defeated Freeza. If I'm not mistaken, Beerus even says Goku doesn't APPEAR as capable of defeating Freeza. Goku could have proved him wrong by making a point that his base state was also capable of such, I guess... But maybe Goku just didn't care as Beerus would see how capable he was anyway... Making a point by showing the power of this weakest state only so Beerus recognized this ability as base would be pedantic of him.

Could be it, but at any rate, Beerus poking Goku is just a silly little gag moment. There's nothing to analyze it. I tend to bring that scene up just to make fun of the whole situation, but that action and moment in itself carry no deeper meaning at all.

Besides isn't Goku implied to be above Gotenks and Gohan in the movie?

I do think Super Saiyan 3 Goku surpassed both Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks by the time the movie occurs. As Gohan, Goten and Trunks don't train, and Gohan tends to lose a lot of power. But I doubt those four-year gap between Majin Buu saga and Movie 14 was enough time for base Goku to have also surpassed them both in theit strongest transformations.

What I can say is that there is scenario where this is the case: Base Saiyans > Kaioshin of East > Freeza.

If Kaioshin of East can defeat Freeza with one blow, then Saiyans can't be weaker than Freeza if we believe that base Saiyans are stronger than Kaioshin.

Funny enough, as far as I remember, there is nothing in the original manga suggesting Base Saiyans surpassed Freeza, so seeing such bold claims coming from someone called the PowerLevelGuy must not be a good sign…

Yeah, there are nothing that suggest anything either way, at the end of the day. All we have are just a Beerus' line that may be massively questionable and quite possibly very misinterpreted for one side, and a gap of sixteen years for the other side (and it's not sixteen years slacking off either).

There will be no end/consensus to this, that's for sure.



I would like to point out that "fans wanting to render a panel/statement useless" has happened before. The latest one is this:

You can go out there right now, asking who believes Bardock actually made that wish, and you will find some who think he didn't do it (there were some in this very forum). That it was a "symbolic wish" that the dragon didn't actually grant. Which would then render this particular panel/Vegeta's statement completely pointless if that is the case. Different interpretations for different people? They are right? They are wrong? Different occasion, different approach? Double standards? Who knows.

[Mireya]

It was heavily implied though... We have Goten and Trunks in a costume in their normal states with Trunks fending off 18 until she kicked into their blind spot and threw them off... With then Trunks getting up after getting slammed like nothing and the Daizenshuu stating they showed strength on par with her UNTIL they transformed. I mean, how isn't that heavy enough to conclude Freeza had been surpassed? The same Shin who can one shot Freeza was drooling at base Vegeta's powers. Vegeta stated his superior position (this wasn't a statement made to the Saiyans only... If he is surpassed by 18 who's right there next to him, then his superior position does change) won't change if they are all in base. He speaks it'll be the same to them, as in, it'll affect them the same, but that doesn't mean he's suddenly ignoring 18 whom he knows surpasses Freeza BY A LOT... Because in that case, his superior position would change. Those can be as direct and precise evidences as they get, can't they not? I mean, it's not like what he said isn't true... the BoG statement gave this debate some standing legs. Before it, you'd meet way more "Piccolo vs base Saiyans" debates...

...and even within BoG, I raised the point earlier... Goku was implied as stronger than Gotenks within the same movie. Is Freeza > base Gotenks? Even post RoSaT base Gotenks? If Piccolo felt a way more abrasive reaction at base Gotenks simply being formed than the ssj kids going FP... And didn't stop them from going at Boo, then can't base Gotenks be safely placed as above Piccolo? If not, what about base Gotenks post RoSaT who had powered up a lot on top of that and upped Piccolo's hopes? So the movie already presents a problem with the statement, from my PoV... And the RoF subsequent movie only slams the main proof even more to the ground... With the Super anime further reinforcing it by having Gohan (base) and Piccolo fighting equally. The Super manga structured the statement in a weird way, Beerus was hesitant to outright say Goku defeated Freeza. Even if you interpret it as him building it up, it's still strange... As he didn't comment the obvious when Goku was SSJ... It should be a confirmed, glarring, clear as day thing to point out.

In RoF, base Gohan gets the most attention from Freeza... Interestingly enough, Shisami answers that, like, acts after Freeza's focus on Gohan by choosing to take on Piccolo. To me, that's suggestive he'd ba taking on the 2nd strongest and leaving the special one to Freeza. That was the only and first emphasis they gave Piccolo, Shisami going after him upon Freeza's comment on Gohan, possibly suggesting he'd take on the 2nd warrior and Freeza could take on Gohan. Still though, Freeza's focus, AT's script statement (Gohan is the strongest) focusing on the specific moment of them battling the army, statement made with the battle on-going... When he revealed the SSJ in another script. It seems almost as conclusive as Beerus' statement, though this one would have a lot more backing from the manga. And the manga alone, I can't see how someone can read the Boo saga and say there's nothing there for base Saiyans > Freeza. That's... Wow.

[PowerLevelGuy]

"She used to be stronger than our Dads!"

Proceeds to fight evenly in Base forms. Android 18 calls Mighty Mask strong, called SSJ Vegeta a weakling. I don't know how it could get more clear my brothers. I'm not intentionally making this stuff up to inflame you guys, but how else am I supposed to interpret that?

Nothing suggests Android 18 is suppressed, so why would I assume it?

[Mireya]

Even if 18 was holding back, which may be possible as she doesn't lose her cool when she sees them transform in SSJ and thus increase their power (she doesn't know the boost but knows it's a power up), was it by much? Likely not... Trunks would fire a blast that was above her, to win by KO, but not enough to kill her. Which strength Trunks had to base it on to produce the blast? The strength she was using? So if she were using 50%, would Trunks go with a 100% blast? Not likely, as that could be a threat to her life... If she were using like 10%, Trunks would likely not use a 20% blast, since that would be a threat to her... But the blast ends up STILL being a threat to her, as she needs to quickly dodge and her eyes are wide open in shock... So the blast was still strong enough that she'd be in trouble hadn't she dodged. So only the fact she chose to dodge it and that Trunks wasn't so off in his estimations should show she wasn't holding back much, no? Otherwise she'd deal with the blast easily as Trunks can't make it too strong as he only wants a KO win... She using, what, 80% makes total sense... Trunks would then go with a 100% and that would end up right around her actual level, while were she an 80, she'd have lost taking that blast head on, though not died. Point being, Trunks' estimations coming from the effort level she was using and the level needed only to defeat her and not kill her not being so off meaning she was close to full power. The Daizenshuu is more blatant and states they demonstrate strength on par with her. She was holding back, but the kids weren't in a proper coordination either. So it may even it out in the end. If Trunks can take a slam fist to a not so far from FP 18 and still get up easily, what about Vegeta, Goku? Wouldn't this fit well with Vegeta being secure fighting in base with 18 there? If even while not at FP she could already press SSJ Vegeta and make him use effort, this should be very telling of how well base kid Trunks fares and deals with her blows and his strength compared to Freeza, much less the way stronger base Saiyans, I'd say.

[PowerLevelGuy]

Why hold back for Mighty Mask but not for the other people she eliminated?

[Hugo Boss]

Yeah, there are nothing that suggest anything either way, at the end of the day. All we have are just a Beerus' line that may be massively questionable and quite possibly very misinterpreted for one side, and a gap of sixteen years for the other side (and it's not sixteen years slacking off either).

There will be no end/consensus to this, that's for sure.

From my perspective, for some people it seems this is only a matter of finding unbelievable that Goku couldn’t muster leapfrogging gains in those 16 years, when most of those gains that came before were from near-death-power-ups. The other gains were only seen in transformations and fusions.

This line in particular would have no purpose or impact if it weren’t supposed to be true. Goku has no qualms about saying what he disagrees with (“gimme a break”). He doesn’t offer any counter to what Beerus says in this instance, like he does to Freeza in RoF. He says he doesn’t need Super Saiyan to fight Freeza in RoF and demonstrates that he really didn’t need to.

The movie doesn’t clarify how Goku was able to do that, but the anime implies Whis was not allowing them to use Super Saiyan, which resulted in their base forms having steady gains. That was the first time since they fought Freeza that they changed their focus to base forms. So, I don’t get why this is still a point of contention.

[Mireya]

Goku was directly addressing Freeza there. It'd make more sense for him to be more willing to correct Freeza with their personal grudge than to Beerus, who would see his power anyway. Besides, there's the issue of Goku being > Gotenks in the movie... It doesn't really make sense for base Gotenks to be weaker than Freeza, does it?

[Koitsukai]

I'm still surprised people thinking these fictional characters have the agency to say bullshit just for the sake of a joke.
They are puppets that say whatever the puppeteer wants them to say. If the line is present, it means that's the author right there saying it.
Whether you like or agree with what the author is saying through his characters, or how they do it, is besides the point. The author agrees with it, period.

It's much easier to work your way out of Vegeta having a big mouth, or 18 not going into kill mode against humans(she did do a decent job with the punching machine and safely beating the TB finalists), or that characters get that much weaker as time goes by and stop training (Gotenks, Gohan) than to pretend the author is just trolling the audience or that he flunked Narrative 101 and keeps saying stuff untrue with no rebuttal down the line.
And no, analyzing a movie script and giving in-depth interpretations to stuff that didn't even make it - and gets contradicted in the same manga chapter that brings up RoF- isn't enough to override a direct statement from the authority.

Shit, the timeline of Gohan going from great to shit is so clear from Z, BoG, RoF, to pre ToP that discussing this just blows my mind.