Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think SSJB being 50x SSJG is a well accepted fact just like SSJ1 being 50x Base is. The manga is a bit muddy since 10% of SSJB is below SSJG, but that was Incomplete SSJB. Perfected/Completed SSJB fits perfectly as 50x God.

As far as the main SSJ forms go (Golden forms + God + Blue), SSJG is the only missing piece. Right now I like SSJG being 10x SSJ3, it even works for Battle of Gods if you take into account the fake ritual boost and Goku's power growing. Here's a bit from my list:

Spoiler:

Goku (Start of BoG): 100
~ SSJ: 5,000
~ SSJ2: 10,000
~ SSJ3: 40,000

Vegetto (Hypothetical): 400,000
~ SSJ: 1,000,000
~ SSJ3: 2,500,000

SSJ Goku (Fake ritual): 20,000 --> I imagine SSJ Vegeta and Gohan are also 5k, and Goten and Trunks are 2.5k each
~ SSJG: 1,600,000+ --> Goku says the FP of SSJG is beyond his imagination, so initial SSJG doesn't have to be >>> SSJ3 Fusion.
~ Full power: 8,000,000

Talking about list, I made a list for the DBS Anime some months ago but kept editing it because I was unsure of how strong Base Goku is. Here is the current form, with me assuming Goku just suffered a retcon like in the movies.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So, I saw some very good reasons for why SSJ3 Gotenks maybe isn't that much stronger than SSJ3 Goku, and thought I'd toy with the numbers a bit to see how I'd make it work.

SSJ Goten - 1,200
SSJ Trunks - 1,250

Had to nerf them a bit so Gotenks can properly be "many times stronger" than them. They don't really have to be up there with Gohan and Vegeta to impress them, and Super heavily implies Gohan and Piccolo > SSJ Boys in RoF anyway. Here they're around Super Vegeta.

SSJ/2/3 Goku - 4,500/9,000/36,000

Fat Boo - 30,000

Both are the basis for comparison with Gotenks. Taken directly from my list. Fat Boo has to be this strong because I don't want to complicate how strong Good/Mr Boo is.

Gotenks (Pre Rosat) - 144
- SSJ - 7,200

Basically, Goku admits Gotenks is a gamble even after solving the time issue (He makes Boo promise to wait and mentions they can use the DBs). Piccolo's calm reaction to Gotenks is very suspicious if he's indeed SSJ3 level, why'd he want to test Gotenks if he's alright? The anime also explains Chi-Chi and Bulma made the boys rest before training more, but as we see in the manga Boo arrived too early.
At the end of the day, this is a saga Toriyama admited he was writting by the seat of his pants, so even though Gotenks was planned to be that strong and save the day initially, there was clearly a change of plans on AT's part when he made Boo transform.

Super Boo - 80,000

Certainly stronger than Fat Boo, but this transformation isn't nearly as dramatic as 4th form Freeza or Perfect Cell.

Gotenks (Post Rosat) - 200
- SSJ/2/3 - 10,000/20,000/80,000

Surpassed "Vegeta and the others" here according to Daizenshuu 7. I guess one could argue Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta with SSJ2 and 3, but I just like these numbers here more.

Ultimate Gohan - 120,000

He's 1,000x stronger than Post Z Sword Base Gohan. I think that's neat.

Gotenks-Boo - 160,000
Gohan-Boo - 200,000

Vegetto - 45,000
- SSJ - 2,250,000

Stronger than SSJ3 Goku in base, according to Daizenshuu 7.

And then in Battle of Gods SSJ3 Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan are all at 100 in base and 40,000 in SSJ3/Ultimate. I think that's the best way of mixing Goku being left in the dust in the Boo Saga but fully catching up by the start of Super.

[QuakingStar]

Goten and Trunks didn't train much after the Boo Saga and Gohan had stopped training as well, he lost his Ultimate State shortly after Battle of Gods because of it so Goku catching up is only because the other three didn't train so they continued to get weaker, while he continued training.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, the heroes' power lineup in Battle of Gods makes a lot more sense when you remember it was originally written and even animated with regular Super Saiyan Gohan, and he was only changed to using Ultimate at some very late stage.

[ZombieVito]

So, I saw some very good reasons for why SSJ3 Gotenks maybe isn't that much stronger than SSJ3 Goku, and thought I'd toy with the numbers a bit to see how I'd make it work.

SSJ Goten - 1,200
SSJ Trunks - 1,250

Had to nerf them a bit so Gotenks can properly be "many times stronger" than them. They don't really have to be up there with Gohan and Vegeta to impress them, and Super heavily implies Gohan and Piccolo > SSJ Boys in RoF anyway. Here they're around Super Vegeta.

SSJ/2/3 Goku - 4,500/9,000/36,000

Fat Boo - 30,000

Both are the basis for comparison with Gotenks. Taken directly from my list. Fat Boo has to be this strong because I don't want to complicate how strong Good/Mr Boo is.

Gotenks (Pre Rosat) - 144
- SSJ - 7,200

Basically, Goku admits Gotenks is a gamble even after solving the time issue (He makes Boo promise to wait and mentions they can use the DBs). Piccolo's calm reaction to Gotenks is very suspicious if he's indeed SSJ3 level, why'd he want to test Gotenks if he's alright? The anime also explains Chi-Chi and Bulma made the boys rest before training more, but as we see in the manga Boo arrived too early.
At the end of the day, this is a saga Toriyama admited he was writting by the seat of his pants, so even though Gotenks was planned to be that strong and save the day initially, there was clearly a change of plans on AT's part when he made Boo transform.

Super Boo - 80,000

Certainly stronger than Fat Boo, but this transformation isn't nearly as dramatic as 4th form Freeza or Perfect Cell.

Gotenks (Post Rosat) - 200
- SSJ/2/3 - 10,000/20,000/80,000

Surpassed "Vegeta and the others" here according to Daizenshuu 7. I guess one could argue Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta with SSJ2 and 3, but I just like these numbers here more.

Ultimate Gohan - 120,000

He's 1,000x stronger than Post Z Sword Base Gohan. I think that's neat.

Gotenks-Boo - 160,000
Gohan-Boo - 200,000

Vegetto - 45,000
- SSJ - 2,250,000

Stronger than SSJ3 Goku in base, according to Daizenshuu 7.

And then in Battle of Gods SSJ3 Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan are all at 100 in base and 40,000 in SSJ3/Ultimate. I think that's the best way of mixing Goku being left in the dust in the Boo Saga but fully catching up by the start of Super.

So you went back to having normal SS multipliers for fusions? Neat.

I still would argue that Super Boo can't be twice as strong as Goku since Buff Boo = Kid Boo + South Kaioshin. Using your numbers, Buff Boo would be at best 66,000 IMO.

[QuakingStar]

Yeah, the heroes' power lineup in Battle of Gods makes a lot more sense when you remember it was originally written and even animated with regular Super Saiyan Gohan, and he was only changed to using Ultimate at some very late stage.

Yup, Goku never actually caught up with Boo Arc Ultimate Gohan until after he absorbed SSG's power.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Agreed with all the above, just think it’s less awkward if Gohan and Gotenks weren’t tens of times stronger than Goku. The boys like to train fighting, and we don’t even know if fusion can get weaker from lack of practice.

So you went back to having normal SS multipliers for fusions? Neat.

I still would argue that Super Boo can't be twice as strong as Goku since Buff Boo = Kid Boo + South Kaioshin. Using your numbers, Buff Boo would be at best 66,000 IMO.

I’m not sure. Just think that if Gotenks doesn’t have to be anything special, then there’s no reason to sugarcoat things here. But in DBS, it’s another matter…

They work just fine with Kefla, and Gogeta being 1,000x stronger than Broly isn’t wrong, just weird. The only problem is Gogeta being so much stronger than Vegetto after just a couple sagas. Maybe Vegetto had Mr Satan’s stomach aches.

We don’t know how South Kaioshin vs Kid Boo played out, and Moro Saga made absorptions weird anyway.

[ZombieVito]

I’m not sure. Just think that if Gotenks doesn’t have to be anything special, then there’s no reason to sugarcoat things here. But in DBS, it’s another matter…

They work just fine with Kefla, and Gogeta being 1,000x stronger than Broly isn’t wrong, just weird. The only problem is Gogeta being so much stronger than Vegetto after just a couple sagas. Maybe Vegetto had Mr Satan’s stomach aches.

We don’t know how South Kaioshin vs Kid Boo played out, and Moro Saga made absorptions weird anyway.

Well, I just assume since Goku and Vegeta weren't equals in EP66 then Vegetto got a smaller boost. Not to mention that in the ToP they grew multiple times stronger and both of them unlocked new forms. That most likely boosted Gogeta even further than FT arc Vegetto.

The anime filler seems fine to me. South Kaioshin gave Kid Boo a good fight but eventually lost and got absorbed. His absorption was also never noted to be any different, (Only Grand Kaioshin's was) so I see no reason to not treat it as an addition like the rest were.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well, I just assume since Goku and Vegeta weren't equals in EP66 then Vegetto got a smaller boost. Not to mention that in the ToP they grew multiple times stronger and both of them unlocked new forms. That most likely boosted Gogeta even further than FT arc Vegetto.

The anime filler seems fine to me. South Kaioshin gave Kid Boo a good fight but eventually lost and got absorbed. His absorption was also never noted to be any different, (Only Grand Kaioshin's was) so I see no reason to not treat it as an addition like the rest were.

Not as big as Caulifla and Kale, or even Boo Saga Goku and Vegeta if we’re counting transformations. And counting transformations is messy because I think we both agree Base Gogeta isn’t >>> KKx20 or SSJBE.

Both South and Dai affected Boo’s body in a way no one else did. It’s also theorized South was the basis for Super Boo’s mind, but this part is pretty confusing.

[ZombieVito]

Not as big as Caulifla and Kale, or even Boo Saga Goku and Vegeta if we’re counting transformations. And counting transformations is messy because I think we both agree Base Gogeta isn’t >>> KKx20 or SSJBE.

Both South and Dai affected Boo’s body in a way no one else did. It’s also theorized South was the basis for Super Boo’s mind, but this part is pretty confusing.

I actually started to think Kefla wasn't as strong initially. Her SS form seemed to match SSB Goku at first and then she got stronger by adapting to Goku. What I mean about transformations is that Gogeta's potential is greater because of them so his base is stronger that what it could have been if they fused in the FT arc.

You mean because of Buff Boo not getting South Kaioshin's clothes?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I actually started to think Kefla wasn't as strong initially. Her SS form seemed to match SSB Goku at first and then she got stronger by adapting to Goku. What I mean about transformations is that Gogeta's potential is greater because of them so his base is stronger that what it could have been if they fused in the FT arc.

You mean because of Buff Boo not getting South Kaioshin's clothes?

Goku fights her without Kaio-Ken for quite a while right? That's pretty impressive. I think my anime list does take that into account, but I don't remember the exact details of the fight. I'm due for a rewatch of it.

No, it's the mere fact he became Buff Boo. He changed Boo's physiognomy in a way nobody else does, except for Dai.

[ZombieVito]

Goku fights her without Kaio-Ken for quite a while right? That's pretty impressive. I think my anime list does take that into account, but I don't remember the exact details of the fight. I'm due for a rewatch of it.

No, it's the mere fact he became Buff Boo. He changed Boo's physiognomy in a way nobody else does, except for Dai.

Vados even wonders if SS Kefla should be careful fighting SSB Goku making Champa bring up Goku's stamina again. I think it's clear Kefla evolves during the fight.

That's actually true. I might have to think about this more.

[Mireya]

Some power levels for the time Freeza came to Earth and Trunks appears. Be free to show any disagreement with the placements and ask for anything. I'll try to answer as deeply as I can, since those levels I came up with came from reading the story over and over and witnessing many debates and different viewpoints. I'm all for discussing the power placements and even power gaps, if someone wants to venture into that. I'd like comments though so I can feel the motivation to post the power levels little by little, you can be as picky and harsh critiquing as you want, I don't care.


Trunks' showdown


Yamcha : 90,000
Tenshinhan : 120,000
Kuririn : 200,000

Son Gohan : 800,000

Piccolo : 2,700,000
Vegeta : 3,000,000

King Cold : 90,000,000
Mecha Freeza (suppressed) : 75,000,000
--- Hypothetical full power : 155,000,000

Future Trunks : 4,000,000
--- SSJ : 200,000,000

Son Goku : 4,400,000
--- SSJ : 220,000,000


SSJ Future Gohan (1 arm) : 180,000,000
Future Android 17 (full power) : 360,000,000
Future Android 18 : 330,000,000


Alright, to have something else to discuss, will include the initial levels of the next saga too.


Yamcha : 2,200,000
Tenshinhan : 3,000,000
Kuririn : 4,000,000
Son Gohan : 5,300,000

[One thing I don't like is the earthlings getting bigger proportional gains than Gohan in spite of Gohan having trained with Piccolo and Goku... But eh, can't be helped as I like to picture the earthlings at least in the low millions here. Maybe they managed to squeeze out every ounce of potential they had for gains and maxed out, while Gohan was in the imminence of getting a huge boost with further training. And I don't like to have Gohan above that since I like to have his base level weaker than future Trunks from this time still... As Gohan is still definitely considerably weaker than Goku under same forms]

Android 19 : 158,000,000
--- post KMHMH absorption : 198,000,000
--- post weakened base Goku : 200,000,000

Android 20 : 182,000,000
--- post Vegeta's blast : 200,000,000
--- post suppressed Piccolo : 220,000,000

Piccolo : 260,000,000

Future Trunks : 6,000,000
--- SSJ : 300,000,000

Son Goku : 6,600,000
--- SSJ : 330,000,000

Vegeta : 6,800,000
--- SSJ : 340,000,000

Android 18 : 450,000,000
Android 17 : 500,000,000

[Mireya]

Damn, no one commented... Pity. Seems like the power levels community is already dead.

[QuakingStar]

Damn, no one commented... Pity. Seems like the power levels community is already dead.

When it comes to power levels the characters don't see numbers or anything, they can just feel a difference kind of like feeling the difference between 5lbs and 7lbs but with your mind which leads me to believe it is mostly inaccurate.I think Goku could sense somebody who has 10,000 more pl than him and would probably say "this guys twice as strong as I am rn!"

[ZombieVito]

Damn, no one commented... Pity. Seems like the power levels community is already dead.

Well, I don't want to be rude but Z power levels are not that interesting commenting about anymore.

Do a Super list and I will gladly comment.

[Mireya]

Damn, no one commented... Pity. Seems like the power levels community is already dead.

Well, I don't want to be rude but Z power levels are not that interesting commenting about anymore.

Do a Super list and I will gladly comment.

I don't know anything about Super honestly. I didn't like it so even though I've read most of the manga, little of it stuck into my memory. Anime likewise.

[ZombieVito]

So this completely passed me by but we got another official power level for Raditz on an info card for DBS Broly.



It's 1600 now.

[LightBing]

So this completely passed me by but we got another official power level for Raditz on an info card for DBS Broly.



It's 1600 now.

That number is contradictory with the manga...
If you make Raditz this strong then he isn't comparable to Saibaimen, which is the whole point of the number! To give perspective of the new villains and hype up them up as threats.

It's why I ignore "official" numbers like those, clearly whoever made this is a random person.
I really doubt Toriyama felt the urge to correct this random digit, with absolutely null consequences; unless you're a Raditz fan.

[Grimlock]

I guess it all depends on your definition of "comparable". There's also Paragus and his 4,200 power level and Nappa's 4,000 power level, if you take the guidebook's information into consideration. Would you say Nappa and Paragus are on each other's level?

I always felt that comparison was a bit too much, doing dirty on Raditz. And maybe Toriyama also realized this because even if he were to "correct" that number digit, he would just say his power level is over 1,200, without specifying it any further. Also, Kanzenshuu says that the comparison Nappa makes between Raditz and Saibaman is not to be taken at face value (which is something one can't help but notice people in this fandom often do, but I digress...).

With that in mind, I'd say a two, three hundred difference is within a "comparable range". I also would say that you don't need Raditz and Saibaman to be equal to "give perspective of the new villains and hype up them up as threats". Just knowing that these creatures are comparable to Raditz is enough to get the point across, because they would be essentially fighting a bunch of Raditzes, even if they are slightly inferior to him. Heck, Raditz himself is able to put a few of them down, but he would be in trouble against a horde of Saibamen.