Was introducing power levels a mistake?

[Kingdom Heartless]

To a certain extent, I think it was. They're kind of fun and everything, but I think it introduced to many arguments.

For one thing, I'm not a fan of how weak it revealed all the characters to have been in Dragon Ball.

It also introduced the issues of "wait, how did they get to that level," and so forth.

I feel they limited the story to a certain extent, and the earlier episodes/chapters worked better without them.

[Perfect]

No, it wasn't a mistake by any means. It made things a bit more simplistic of what level someone was at.

[Kingdom Heartless]

It made things a bit more simplistic of what level someone was at.

But that's part of the problem... I feel a character's level should be judged on their merits as a warrior, not what their power level was. And I know that this was kind of how it was in the show, but it seems to be often forgotten in all those Power Level arguments.

[Perfect]

It made things a bit more simplistic of what level someone was at.

But that's part of the problem... I feel a character's level should be judged on their merits as a warrior, not what their power level was. And I know that this was kind of how it was in the show, but it seems to be often forgotten in all those Power Level arguments.

Part of the problem is it's simplicity? No, that isn't a problem. A character is judged on their merits in terms of stature. Their chi is measured in power level, which shows how strong they are by a supernatural means. "Power level arguments" depend entirely on who they're with (people in the argument).

[Kid Buu]

I think it was alright up until Freeza (the actual character, not the arc) where the PL's got ridiculous. If we take the 120 million number as fact then Freeza was 1,000x stronger then the previous villain Ginyu. That's a HUGE jump.

[Kingdom Heartless]

I think it was alright up until Freeza (the actual character, not the arc) where the PL's got ridiculous. If we take the 120 million number as fact then Freeza was 1,000x stronger then the previous villain Ginyu. That's a HUGE jump.

And Goku became like 250,000 times stronger than he was at the start of Z.

[Perfect]

I think it was alright up until Freeza (the actual character, not the arc) where the PL's got ridiculous. If we take the 120 million number as fact then Freeza was 1,000x stronger then the previous villain Ginyu. That's a HUGE jump.

And Goku became like 250,000 times stronger than he was at the start of Z.

Because of different methods of training and whatnot, the're a ton of variables to go over that can justify that if you wish to play that cliched card.

[Gaffer Tape]

I thought it was an interesting concept, but battle powers did ultimately did get extremely annoying, and they did make the fighting feel overly simplistic. I can't come to a decision on whether or not it was any more simplistic, but it certainly made it feel narrower, more constricted, more rote. Toriyama was wise to abandon them, but, unfortunately, their effects continued to be felt throughout the series, I think. He had let it grow into a monster before he was finally able to pull the plug. And even more annoyingly is how its effects are felt in the fandom. Urgh.

[penguintruth]

Well, the point of them was obviously that Freeza and his men looked at battle power clinically, as a science that can be measured. But Goku and his allies can raise or supress their battle power, and eventually it becomes entirely moot. It seemed to be there to show that real power can't be measured.

It's the fans that have taken battle powers too seriously.

[Gaffer Tape]

Not really because that's skirting the issue. The fact still remains that the person with the highest battle power wins, and once you know the numbers (or the true numbers) the outcome is a foregone conclusion. I agree that them being able to outsmart the scouters and the numbers was a good idea, but the creativity there was strangled by the limited concept. Relying on the scouters was proven to be incorrect, but the idea of absolute quantifying of ki remained quite irrefutable if all the Daizenshuu battle power lists are to believed.

[GizmoKSX]

The balance between power levels and strategy worked fine early on. Vegeta clearly had the upper hand in terms of power, particularly in his Oozaru form. But the interference of Yajirobe—a particularly weak warrior by comparison—turned the tide in the battle.

Later, Ginyu sees Goku's incredible power and swaps bodies with him, only to find that he can't fully harness the powers of a body he isn't used to. And even once he begins to adapt, he doesn't know how to use the Kaioken.

But yes, there are times when it comes down to straight figures, and portions of the fandom have latched onto that aspect. Characters are associated with their power levels to the point that DBZ Abridged gave Vegeta a power rating of 15 Raditz.

[Ahiru77]

I think releasing an official list was a mistake.

Power levels are a must in the story itself.

[jda95]

It sorta got ridiculous. When you considered the enormous power level growth the heroes gained within only a couple of years compared to the little that happened in Dragon Ball, it put a label on the exaggerated power of everyone. Sure, it's a must for a shonen series to have all the heroes keep getting stronger, but power levels quickly spiraled out out of control.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Introducing battle powers wasn't a mistake, because it exposed a different perspective to battle powers that we hadn't seen before, and that trying to accurately gauge an opponent's battle power was flawed (since the scouter only reads a fighter's current BP, which they can increase). It did eventually get out of control by the Freeza arc though, to the point that parts of the story fixated too much on them. And we all know the negative impact it's had on the fandom...

Overall, I think it would've been a more interesting concept if Toriyama hadn't limited it so much and not gone crazy with it (listing BPs for every minor plot point from Ginyu in Goku's body to 2nd form Freeza). And the Daizenshuus shouldn't have released "official battle powers", especially since the majority of them are debatable.

[TheGreatness25]

I don't think that the battle powers showed that the characters were weak in Dragon Ball. When the average person is at a 5 and we know that by DBZ some were at 200+, I think it makes them really powerful. If the average is 10 (let's say the farmer was super weak and half the strength of a regular human), then a battle power of 50 is insanely strong.

Anyway, it was not a mistake. It was a good concept. It shows alien technology and I feel that the idea itself is pretty original. HOWEVER, I think that the fans take it too far. When people make up numbers -- and yes, MAKE UP numbers, for the Cell Saga, Buu Saga, and so on, that's just horrible. They don't understand that it is impossible to calculate what the battle powers would be. However I see it non-stop. Thankfully not here, but in other places. And they argue over the numbers as if there was a way to prove anyone right. The truth is, all they were meant to be was a way to show off Saiyan (and later Freeza) technology and make it seem like, "Holy crap, how are they going to win!?" But after the battle powers were eliminated from the series, they should have stayed eliminated, even from fandom I believe.

[Kendamu]

Well, the point of them was obviously that Freeza and his men looked at battle power clinically, as a science that can be measured. But Goku and his allies can raise or supress their battle power, and eventually it becomes entirely moot. It seemed to be there to show that real power can't be measured.

It's the fans that have taken battle powers too seriously.

I agree with this completely and I'm glad someone got around to saying it before I did.

Sure, "highest battle power wins" and all that junk, but if you actually look at the battles where Scouters are relied upon, you can see that the odds turned against the bad guys because of it at one point or another.

If it weren't for re-release after re-release of the Saiyan and Freeza arcs and the repeats upon repeats of those arcs on TV back during the Saban days, BP wouldn't be such a big deal. It was just such a large part of the portion of the show that a lot of people remember best that it's stuck with us as if it were actually something important.

[Senzu_Bean]

Battle powers are minimal in Dragonball. Us, fans, are who transformed it on a complex, atrocious subject.

[Goten Forever]

*Looks at Goten's power level*

10,000? Thats all?
Goku surpassed that in the first saga! Before he was a super saiyan!
Now, if I compare how Gotenks kicked Buu's ass, and how in movie 11 Goten would have pwned Broly solo if he hadn't started complaining about his arm... (Neither had any competition previous)

Goten alone must have a power level in the billions. Take into consideration hes at least as strong as FP SSJ Gohan was in the cell saga.

[Great Saiyaman I]

*Looks at Goten's power level*

10,000? Thats all?
Goku surpassed that in the first saga! Before he was a super saiyan!
Now, if I compare how Gotenks kicked Buu's ass, and how in movie 11 Goten would have pwned Broly solo if he hadn't started complaining about his arm... (Neither had any competition previous)

Goten alone must have a power level in the billions. Take into consideration hes at least as strong as FP SSJ Gohan was in the cell saga.

So it's ridiculous for Goku's son to ONLY BE 1000x STRONGER than his dad was at 12? I think you're taking your Goten fandom too seriously. Really, when he's not Super Saiyan it should be lower.

[caejones]

^ And the above is a part of why battle powers are lame.
The purpose of the concept in the series was pretty clever. But... so few people took it that way that we have... *points up* that.


(Goten with a base of 10,000 would be simply awesome in itself, considering that his brother would have been about that at the same age had he not gotten the Saichoro power up and maybe some Zenkais on Namek. XD. I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say that playing around in SSJ strains the body until mastered, possibly bumping him up a bit more. But... eh, applying numbers to the Buu arc is just painful and that's the reason Toriyama didn't do much with it. )