Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff
Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
It make me wonder,did Mr. Simmons ever explain,why he decided to left Japanese honorifics,instead of translate them too?
My Twitter: @kamil198811
Bulma fan
Thanks to Discotek:
Magic Knight Rayearth get DVD release in 2015 and Blu-Ray release on 2016
Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas get DVD release in 2015
Bulma fan
Thanks to Discotek:
Magic Knight Rayearth get DVD release in 2015 and Blu-Ray release on 2016
Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas get DVD release in 2015
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
I don't know the exact reason why he left them, most likely cause he just felt like it, but I can think of why he didn't translate them. Honorifics don't really have an equivalent in the English language. So instead of trying to adapt them into English or flat out ignoring them, he just left them as is.coola wrote:It make me wonder,did Mr. Simmons ever explain,why he decided to left Japanese honorifics,instead of translate them too?
If you're not here soon... GET ON!
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
Well, 'Mister Satan-san' doesn't compute in English. Honorifics are a lot more personalized than military ranks (like how Amuro Ray of Mobile Suit Gundam is called 'Amuro-tai'i', or Lt. Amuro). Then there's '-kun', which you can't really 'translate' at all.
Either way, I'm glad Daimao left them as is.
Either way, I'm glad Daimao left them as is.
She/Her
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
bisexual milf
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
bisexual milf
- The Tori-bot
- I Live Here
- Posts: 3217
- Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:00 pm
- Location: Penguin Village
- Contact:
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
Yeah, whenever they're translated it's either done weirdly or doesn't look right in English ("niisan", for example), so I'm glad Daimao left them untouched.
New to the forum? Just want to know when you'll hit your next posting rank? Ever wondered why some users have special titles, and what they mean? The answers to all these questions and more are waiting for you in the Kanzenshuu Member Hierarchy Guide!!
"Of all the things to worry about... the Wookiee has no pants." -- Mark Hamill
"Of all the things to worry about... the Wookiee has no pants." -- Mark Hamill
Herms wrote:Really, you could translate either title either way and nobody would care. But God would know.
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
I think it depends on the production.
In a series like Dragon Ball that's so very Asian-styled, they fit right in.
In a world like Trigun, Fullmetal Alchemist, or especially Hellsing, they're very awkward and out of place. Because those worlds are very western-styled, especially Hellsing which is flat-out STATED to take place in Europe. It would be VERY out of place to see a British person call someone else "Walter-san".
In a series like Dragon Ball that's so very Asian-styled, they fit right in.
In a world like Trigun, Fullmetal Alchemist, or especially Hellsing, they're very awkward and out of place. Because those worlds are very western-styled, especially Hellsing which is flat-out STATED to take place in Europe. It would be VERY out of place to see a British person call someone else "Walter-san".
"FUNi should take [DBZ] out behind the woodshed, give it one last treat, then blow its f%#@$ng brains out before it attacks the baby again." ~Rocketman
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
I don't think that's much of an issue. At the end of the day, if it's there in the spoken dialogue (and only when it is), it's there. As a Japanese production, 'anime-isms' like that are going to slip in and when they do, you can't just pretend they're not. It's inconsistent with other productions, too. It's annoying to hear Armstrong say 'Edward Elric-kun', but have the subtitles only read 'Edward Elric'. The strength of the "retain honorifics' argument should not lie in whether or not something takes place in an Asian setting, but whether they reflect the spoken dialogue the viewer hears. This is espicially annoying for a show like Bleach, which uses western (for the Arrancars) and eastern order (everyone else) all the time but the subtitles from Viz Media don't reflect this at all. It's espicially odd when full names are used often in dialogue.DemonRin wrote:I think it depends on the production.
In a series like Dragon Ball that's so very Asian-styled, they fit right in.
In a world like Trigun, Fullmetal Alchemist, or especially Hellsing, they're very awkward and out of place. Because those worlds are very western-styled, especially Hellsing which is flat-out STATED to take place in Europe. It would be VERY out of place to see a British person call someone else "Walter-san".
She/Her
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
bisexual milf
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
bisexual milf
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
When it comes to subtitles, I don't think I'm that bothered if they're there or not. Like YBM said, they're there in the audio either way--leaving them out of the subs wouldn't change that. Translations that try to adapt them can end in some very strange things and generally require a light, flexible touch to be done well, while translations that leave them out entirely can encounter their own problems when an honorific becomes part of a joke or part of the plot. In the end, leaving them in is probably the easiest and safest thing to do...although I'm not arguing that it's necessarily the right thing to do, if that makes any sense.
If TPP passes in your country it will be illegal for you to watch an imported DVD. Click here to learn more!
- ssgOverlord
- Patreon Supporter
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:55 pm
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
With subtitles, I don't mind honorifics either way. But it is true reading what I'm hearing is less distracting.
With dubs, I do find them out of place a bit more.
With dubs, I do find them out of place a bit more.
I think I'll be buying assorted Dragon Ball things for the rest of my life.
- Mountain
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 355
- Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:24 am
- Location: New York
- Contact:
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
Honorifics can't really be translated, but what most people don't know is that they can be conveyed.
Honestly though, I think it was a good idea for him to leave it in. It adds charms to characters like Chi-Chi who says Goku-sa instead of Goku-san ... Instantly makes her standout like her character already does to the English viewers.
Honestly though, I think it was a good idea for him to leave it in. It adds charms to characters like Chi-Chi who says Goku-sa instead of Goku-san ... Instantly makes her standout like her character already does to the English viewers.
-
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 5407
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
Because translating them poses a number of difficulties. As a linguist and someone who can appreciate translations, this seems like, for want of a better word, a cop-out. It would be extremely unfair of me if I were to criticise Mr. Simmons individually because a) his translations are generally good and b) most translators do it (which doesn't necessarily make it right, but it's become the norm). Rarely do I see honorifics or diminutives left untranslated in other foreign media, except sometimes when they're being used jocularly or pejoratively, so I don't understand why Anime and Manga should be any different. A translator must accept that some things are just going to have to be "lost in translation", but he should do the best he can despite this. To each his own, I guess.
Last edited by Piccolo Daimaoh on Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:19 am, edited 3 times in total.
- Mountain
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 355
- Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:24 am
- Location: New York
- Contact:
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
In the English version, Chi-Chi just comes off as extremely whiny to me, rather than a hick. =\NeoKING wrote:Honorifics can't really be translated, but what most people don't know is that they can be conveyed.
Honestly though, I think it was a good idea for him to leave it in. It adds charms to characters like Chi-Chi who says Goku-sa instead of Goku-san ... Instantly makes her standout like her character already does to the English viewers.
- SHINOBI-03
- I Live Here
- Posts: 2606
- Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:47 am
- Location: United Arab Emirates, Dubai
- Contact:
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
Ugh... I began to dislike leaving honorifics untranslated. It looks awkward. Especially if it's used in a non-Japanese setting, real or fictional. The only exception is when the setting is Japan. Other than that, they should be translated.
The world of Dragon Ball is not real. And any Asian references you get are mostly non-Japanese. So it makes leaving honorifics unnecessary. Even if there are honorific specific jokes, it's not impossible to re-write and keep the original meaning.
Ex. This is a when Piccolo was talking with Gohan in Namek using Kaio.
Piccolo: "Gohan. I'm now talking to you through Kaio".
Kaio: "How rude. That's Kaio-sama for you".
It could be changed to this:
Piccolo: "Gohan. I'm now talking to you through Kaio".
Kaio: "How rude. That's Lord Kaio for you".
The world of Dragon Ball is not real. And any Asian references you get are mostly non-Japanese. So it makes leaving honorifics unnecessary. Even if there are honorific specific jokes, it's not impossible to re-write and keep the original meaning.
Ex. This is a when Piccolo was talking with Gohan in Namek using Kaio.
Piccolo: "Gohan. I'm now talking to you through Kaio".
Kaio: "How rude. That's Kaio-sama for you".
It could be changed to this:
Piccolo: "Gohan. I'm now talking to you through Kaio".
Kaio: "How rude. That's Lord Kaio for you".
Last edited by SHINOBI-03 on Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
My Dragon Ball Story (500th post)
My Anime List
My Manga List
My Anime List
My Manga List
Big Momma wrote:This is Daizex. There's gonna be complaints and groaning no matter what. ;)
Anime Insider magazine wrote:If police officers in the future dress like prostitutes, then what do prostitutes in the future wear?
- MCDaveG
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 5536
- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:54 pm
- Location: Prague, Czechia
- Contact:
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
Yeah, I agree with Shinobi.
Translation is always inconsistent and diverted from original. So I don't see any need to leave honorifics in pro translation.
As one of our domestic translator said: Formal form of Czech language does have two forms of speaking, tykani and vykani, where the most basic change is in using different pronouns. English don't have anything like this, also there is not a difference in english no matter who are you speaking to. There are of course slang words and using calling for people, but the english still uses the same rules. So translator must feel it and modify the language into it to make the closest sense possible for the language he's doing it, but not to alienate it. Like in case with honorifics.
I can in my language use honorific kun, which will look like this: Gohan-kun: Gohánek, Videl-kun: Videlka.....
But believe me, it does not work very well in case of foreign names and it sounds hillariously idiotic for my ears, so
as translator, I will left this as is as well.
The sama is probably one grade more difficult, since it means someone, like my higher superior, or highness and lot of other meanings. It really can't be translated, but not alienate it, I think that Shinobi nailed it flawlessly.
PS: What I really don't understand is One Piece fun sub. About some 43 episode, there was editor note.
As nakama is really important word in one piece, we will left it as is. WTF?????
Why the don't translate as ordinary word as a ''friend'' is????
I really don't take a logic of most anime fans and worst possible thing is when someone is trying to learn Japanese from TV shows. Example: Magibon (what the hell).
Nobody in Japan (nobody normal at least) is talking like characters in TV, be it drama or anime.
My girlfriend really despise most of the ''anime world'' because of idiocy and japanophilia it creates.
Altough she enjoys Gintama anime and comic - it's name caught in a shock her native proffesor she have on grammatics
when she saw that on her desk, who turned red in an instant
I dunno, they say officialy on english web sites it could be also a silver soul, but my GF states it's rather the other meaning which clearly is a pun.
Translation is always inconsistent and diverted from original. So I don't see any need to leave honorifics in pro translation.
As one of our domestic translator said: Formal form of Czech language does have two forms of speaking, tykani and vykani, where the most basic change is in using different pronouns. English don't have anything like this, also there is not a difference in english no matter who are you speaking to. There are of course slang words and using calling for people, but the english still uses the same rules. So translator must feel it and modify the language into it to make the closest sense possible for the language he's doing it, but not to alienate it. Like in case with honorifics.
I can in my language use honorific kun, which will look like this: Gohan-kun: Gohánek, Videl-kun: Videlka.....
But believe me, it does not work very well in case of foreign names and it sounds hillariously idiotic for my ears, so
as translator, I will left this as is as well.
The sama is probably one grade more difficult, since it means someone, like my higher superior, or highness and lot of other meanings. It really can't be translated, but not alienate it, I think that Shinobi nailed it flawlessly.
PS: What I really don't understand is One Piece fun sub. About some 43 episode, there was editor note.
As nakama is really important word in one piece, we will left it as is. WTF?????
Why the don't translate as ordinary word as a ''friend'' is????
I really don't take a logic of most anime fans and worst possible thing is when someone is trying to learn Japanese from TV shows. Example: Magibon (what the hell).
Nobody in Japan (nobody normal at least) is talking like characters in TV, be it drama or anime.
My girlfriend really despise most of the ''anime world'' because of idiocy and japanophilia it creates.
Altough she enjoys Gintama anime and comic - it's name caught in a shock her native proffesor she have on grammatics
when she saw that on her desk, who turned red in an instant
I dunno, they say officialy on english web sites it could be also a silver soul, but my GF states it's rather the other meaning which clearly is a pun.
Last edited by MCDaveG on Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
FighterZ: Funky_Strudel
PS4: Dynamixx88
PS4: Dynamixx88
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
So for example, if it was a series set in the United Kingdom, honorifics in the subs would feel awkward to you, but everyone in England speaking Japanese and using the honorifics out loud wouldn't? It seems like the same thing to me, but I suppose different people probably associate what they're reading and what they're hearing differently.SHINOBI-03 wrote:Ugh... I began to dislike leaving honorifics untranslated. It looks awkward. Especially if it's used in a non-Japanese setting, real or fictional. The only exception is when the setting is Japan. Other than that, they should be translated.
If TPP passes in your country it will be illegal for you to watch an imported DVD. Click here to learn more!
- The Time Traveller
- Patreon Supporter
- Posts: 3456
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 1:32 pm
- Location: UK
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
I've only ever heard him called Mr. Satan or Satan-san, or maybe it's Satan-sama.JulieYBM wrote:Well, 'Mister Satan-san' doesn't compute in English.
- SHINOBI-03
- I Live Here
- Posts: 2606
- Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:47 am
- Location: United Arab Emirates, Dubai
- Contact:
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
Because "You are our friend" sounds awkward?! You have no idea how I got confused from this word when I first saw One Piece in the Enis Lobby arc. They kept saying "Find your own nakama" and I could not understand what is this thing or who is that.MCDaveG wrote:PS: What I really don't understand is One Piece fun sub. About some 43 episode, there was editor note.
As nakama is really important word in one piece, we will left it as is. WTF?????
Why the don't translate as ordinary word as a ''friend'' is????
That's another reason I hate fansubs. Leaving a word untranslated because it "losses the meaning".
Gintama is a pun on "Family Jewels" or "Kintama". Literally, Kintama means "Golden Balls". Replace the "Kin" part with "Gen", and you get "Silver Balls"MCDaveG wrote:My girlfriend really despise most of the ''anime world'' because of idiocy and japanophilia it creates.
Altough she enjoys Gintama anime and comic - it's name caught in a shock her native proffesor she have on grammatics
when she saw that on her desk, who turned red in an instant
I dunno, they say officialy on english web sites it could be also a silver soul, but my GF states it's rather the other meaning which clearly is a pun.
Well, for one, it's a Japanese dub, and second the Japanese listeners sees it normal the same way we take Mr. and Mrs. normal. Another example for this is a current anime that takes place in Paris. While the characters are french, they use Japanese honorifics when they speak. But the subs (One of the few good fansubbers) use French honorifics instead.Bussani wrote:So for example, if it was a series set in the United Kingdom, honorifics in the subs would feel awkward to you, but everyone in England speaking Japanese and using the honorifics out loud wouldn't? It seems like the same thing to me, but I suppose different people probably associate what they're reading and what they're hearing differently.
My Dragon Ball Story (500th post)
My Anime List
My Manga List
My Anime List
My Manga List
Big Momma wrote:This is Daizex. There's gonna be complaints and groaning no matter what. ;)
Anime Insider magazine wrote:If police officers in the future dress like prostitutes, then what do prostitutes in the future wear?
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
True enough, but the viewer is still going to hear the switch between simply 'Mister Satan' and then 'Satan-san' ('-san' usually being treated as 'mister' for males), making it pretty silly. Well, it's not like the west doesn't know what '-san' is anyway, considering the status of The Karate Kid as a classic film.The Time Traveller wrote:I've only ever heard him called Mr. Satan or Satan-san, or maybe it's Satan-sama.JulieYBM wrote:Well, 'Mister Satan-san' doesn't compute in English.
She/Her
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
bisexual milf
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
bisexual milf
- Eire
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:58 pm
- Location: The Promised Land
- Contact:
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
But the viewer doesn't have to. If he had wanted to have educational film about Japanese society ranks he would have watched one. Instead he watches pure entertainment series. For some reason the switch between Japanese and his native language doesn't bother him, so I'm sure he will bear exchange of the forms that in most cases have proper equivalent.
It's hardly to talk about matters of translation without examples. If the series is strictly about country's history or society some untranslated titles or word games can be left, but I can hardly imagine comedy or children's series with things foreign to most of the viewers. Also every translator should remember about traditions- especially when series refer to classical titles translated long ago with different manner. Sorry, the most known translation counts, and Winnie the Pooh here won't be Winifred or whatever you think is more accurate.
Not to speak about geographical names that some stupid translators tend to leave in original form). Also the language marches on and some forms change. If we talk about Japanese terms in Polish they appeared after Japanese-Russian war in 1905, so the traditional form was quite "hard" in pronunciation (szogun), while now the equivalent form is "softer" (siogun). But if you refer to classical TV series it will be always "Szogun" no matter what happens. So, dear translators, the common sense, please.
Leaving honorifics sometimes sounds really odd, especially when setting doesn't say anything about Japanese connotations. In fantasy( DB counts) I prefer the solution that the characters speak in reader's native language, unless it's mentioned they don't.
Isn't it rather an equivalent of -chan?MCDaveG wrote: I can in my language use honorific kun, which will look like this: Gohan-kun: Gohánek, Videl-kun: Videlka.....
It's hardly to talk about matters of translation without examples. If the series is strictly about country's history or society some untranslated titles or word games can be left, but I can hardly imagine comedy or children's series with things foreign to most of the viewers. Also every translator should remember about traditions- especially when series refer to classical titles translated long ago with different manner. Sorry, the most known translation counts, and Winnie the Pooh here won't be Winifred or whatever you think is more accurate.
Not to speak about geographical names that some stupid translators tend to leave in original form). Also the language marches on and some forms change. If we talk about Japanese terms in Polish they appeared after Japanese-Russian war in 1905, so the traditional form was quite "hard" in pronunciation (szogun), while now the equivalent form is "softer" (siogun). But if you refer to classical TV series it will be always "Szogun" no matter what happens. So, dear translators, the common sense, please.
Leaving honorifics sometimes sounds really odd, especially when setting doesn't say anything about Japanese connotations. In fantasy( DB counts) I prefer the solution that the characters speak in reader's native language, unless it's mentioned they don't.
Per aspera ad astra, man!
Women belong in the kitchen.
Men belong in the kitchen.
Everyone belongs in the kitchen, the kitchen has food
Women belong in the kitchen.
Men belong in the kitchen.
Everyone belongs in the kitchen, the kitchen has food
- .:PoetikaL:.
- Regular
- Posts: 643
- Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:59 pm
- Location: Pennsylvania
- Contact:
Re: Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?
In my personal opinion if a translator is going to subtitle a show in any language, I would want them to translate professionally. It is the goal of the translator to make the viewer understand what's going on in their language. So in the case with Dragon Ball: Kaio-sama > Lord Kaio, Kami-sama > God, pretty straightforward. I understand that in anime that you're gonna hear the honorifics at the end and it's up to the translator to translate it their way for the viewer to enjoy the show and know what's going on, but I preferably I want something translated closely to the language I understand without leaving certain things in to keep it "Japanese", for example. That's my opinion/views on the matter, but it won't stop me from enjoying the shows I love.
Speaking of which, this is related towards the fansubbing world, but it's pretty interesting thing to watch about translations. Many of you most likely have seen it before, but for those who haven't I'll leave it here:
THE RISE AND FALL OF ANIME FANSUBS (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYlqLlbix0
Speaking of which, this is related towards the fansubbing world, but it's pretty interesting thing to watch about translations. Many of you most likely have seen it before, but for those who haven't I'll leave it here:
THE RISE AND FALL OF ANIME FANSUBS (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYlqLlbix0
My Deviantart: http://poetikal.deviantart.com
My Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheycallmeBrod
"I beat Toguro, and after that I assumed everything else would just be a big ol' piece of cake. And then some rogue Spirit Detective has to go and open up the freakin' gates of Hell!" -Yusuke Urameshi
I think Tom Dubois of "The Boondocks" said it best for me when FUNimation announced the release of the domestic Dragonbox, after buying all of the Season Sets: "MOTHERFUCK!!! SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT, PRICKS, SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIIIIIIIT!"
My Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheycallmeBrod
"I beat Toguro, and after that I assumed everything else would just be a big ol' piece of cake. And then some rogue Spirit Detective has to go and open up the freakin' gates of Hell!" -Yusuke Urameshi
I think Tom Dubois of "The Boondocks" said it best for me when FUNimation announced the release of the domestic Dragonbox, after buying all of the Season Sets: "MOTHERFUCK!!! SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT, PRICKS, SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIIIIIIIT!"