MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/1/24!)

[AliTheZombie13]

Despite all of the flaws the Baby Arc has, I'm glad at least you thought the journey was interesting.
My feelings are not very different. It has terrible writing, fights that drag on for way too long, characters that are wasted and exist only to be cannon fodder, Pan switching back and forth between "innocent little kid you can relate to" and "Bulma 2.0, now even younger for the loli enjoyers!"

But most of the criticisms GT gets can also easily be applied to the original work. You talk about how Piccolo's death was random just for the sake of drama? I would say the same about Vegeta suddenly caring about Trunks after an entire arc of demeaning and abusing his future son. The difference is that I can still relate and root for Piccolo, while I have only frustration left to spare for the former. Your mileage might vary, but the Baby Arc to me with all of its flaws and garbage writing was still more enjoyable than a large chunk of Post-Saiyan content.

I will concede though, after the Baby Arc, the show trainwrecks... hard.

On a side-note, I chuckled when you mentioned you thought the Granolah arc was torture because it ran for an entire year of nothing but fighting... Take two guesses on my feelings about the Tournament of Power... Or Freeza.

[Scsigs]

Despite all of the flaws the Baby Arc has, I'm glad at least you thought the journey was interesting.
My feelings are not very different. It has terrible writing, fights that drag on for way too long, characters that are wasted and exist only to be cannon fodder, Pan switching back and forth between "innocent little kid you can relate to" and "Bulma 2.0, now even younger for the loli enjoyers!"

But most of the criticisms GT gets can also easily be applied to the original work. You talk about how Piccolo's death was random just for the sake of drama? I would say the same about Vegeta suddenly caring about Trunks after an entire arc of demeaning and abusing his future son. The difference is that I can still relate and root for Piccolo, while I have only frustration left to spare for the former. Your mileage might vary, but the Baby Arc to me with all of its flaws and garbage writing was still more enjoyable than a large chunk of Post-Saiyan content.

I will concede though, after the Baby Arc, the show trainwrecks... hard.

In my opinion, it makes sense that Vegeta wouldn't outwardly show affection towards Trunks in the Android Arc for the majority of it. For 1, I don't think most Saiyans would've done that & 2, he's done nothing but be a brute who doesn't access many emotions for decades & just got free of his overlord by the time Trunks shows up. However, Vegeta spent a year or 2 alone with Trunks in the Time Chamber, more than likely paying some kind of attention to Trunks' training in between his training sessions. Then when Trunks stands up to him, he more thank likely started growing respect for him. It's why TFS beefed it up & had Vegeta self-reflect with saying he felt pride in Trunks after that moment. Then when the only son he'd ever known & had grown to respect to some degree had been killed by Cell right in front of him, he lashed out in anger, which to me makes enough sense for his character. It didn't have a ton of moments & you could certainly make the argument that it could've been done better, but it's not like there's nothing there for it.

The problem with Piccolo sacrificing himself to get rid of the Black Star Dragon Balls is that Piccolo wasn't in the series up until that point. He wasn't up on the Lookout with Dende, he wasn't a part of the fight against Baby, he wasn't mentioned anywhere in the arc beforehand outside of I think where they explained where the Black Star Dragon Balls came from, & it's not established how he knew about them being a thing &/or being actively in use. Had Piccolo been in the arc before then, it was established that he knew they had been used, & other little things needed for a proper build-up, that sacrifice wouldn't have come out of nowhere & would've been a great capper to the arc being about the sins of the past (in this case, the creation of the Balck Star Dragon Balls & the Saiyans conquering the Tsufurian's planet) & the sins of the father (in this case, the original Namek before he split off into Kami & Demon King Piccolo & the Saiyans). It would've been a great tragic way to end the arc if it were properly built up & established beforehand, but it wasn't. That's why it came out of nowhere & as-is, it relies on you knowing who Piccolo is from Z to get any emotional reaction out of rather than a proper build up in GT itself.

[AliTheZombie13]

Despite all of the flaws the Baby Arc has, I'm glad at least you thought the journey was interesting.
My feelings are not very different. It has terrible writing, fights that drag on for way too long, characters that are wasted and exist only to be cannon fodder, Pan switching back and forth between "innocent little kid you can relate to" and "Bulma 2.0, now even younger for the loli enjoyers!"

But most of the criticisms GT gets can also easily be applied to the original work. You talk about how Piccolo's death was random just for the sake of drama? I would say the same about Vegeta suddenly caring about Trunks after an entire arc of demeaning and abusing his future son. The difference is that I can still relate and root for Piccolo, while I have only frustration left to spare for the former. Your mileage might vary, but the Baby Arc to me with all of its flaws and garbage writing was still more enjoyable than a large chunk of Post-Saiyan content.

I will concede though, after the Baby Arc, the show trainwrecks... hard.

In my opinion, it makes sense that Vegeta wouldn't outwardly show affection towards Trunks in the Android Arc for the majority of it. For 1, I don't think most Saiyans would've done that & 2, he's done nothing but be a brute who doesn't access many emotions for decades & just got free of his overlord by the time Trunks shows up. However, Vegeta spent a year or 2 alone with Trunks in the Time Chamber, more than likely paying some kind of attention to Trunks' training in between his training sessions. Then when Trunks stands up to him, he more thank likely started growing respect for him. It's why TFS beefed it up & had Vegeta self-reflect with saying he felt pride in Trunks after that moment. Then when the only son he'd ever known & had grown to respect to some degree had been killed by Cell right in front of him, he lashed out in anger, which to me makes enough sense for his character. It didn't have a ton of moments & you could certainly make the argument that it could've been done better, but it's not. like there's nothing there for it.

The problem with Piccolo sacrificing himself to get rid of the Black Star Dragon Balls is that Piccolo wasn't in the series up until that point. He wasn't up on the Lookout with Dende, he wasn't a part of the fight against Baby, he wasn't mentioned anywhere in the arc beforehand outside of I think where they explained where the Black Star Dragon Balls came from, & it's not established how he knew about them being a thing &/or being actively in use. Had Piccolo been in the arc before then, it was established that he knew they had been used, & other little things needed for a proper build-up, that sacrifice wouldn't have come out of nowhere & would've been a great capper to the arc being about the sins of the past (in this case, the creation of the Balck Star Dragon Balls & the Saiyans conquering the Tsufurian's planet) & the sins of the father (in this case, the original Namek before he split off into Kami & Demon King Piccolo & the Saiyans). It would've been a great tragic way to end the arc if it were properly built up & established beforehand, but it wasn't. That's why it came out of nowhere & as-is, it relies on you knowing who Piccolo is from Z to get any emotional reaction out of rather than a proper build up in GT itself.

I'm not saying Piccolo's death in GT was written well, or built up well, or that I'm not iffed by his only contribution to the arc being "Show up and get beaten/die." I'm saying the entire franchise, with the sole exception to maybe Pre-Namek DB, has garbage-tier writing and execution.

Like with the Vegeta example, I could make a similar argument in the vein "Oh, but it makes perfect sense that Piccolo just out-of-nowhere, at the last minute, with no build up whatsoever, decides he wants to die to take the Black Star Dragon Balls with him, after seeing what's practically the son he never had get mind-raped and attack him, and feeling guilty for not being strong enough to stop him and therefore nearly getting the entire universe subjugated and getting the Earth destroyed, a planet he loved so much as God now falling to his own creation, and yadda yadda yadda."

I could also point out that Cell's sudden resurrection makes no sense, because his entire head was blown up before, his core shouldn't even be a thing, but fans can argue, "Well, maybe his brain core or whatever can move across his body." But that's not what the story is telling me, the story is telling me that he has a core on his head, and the only way to destroy the core is to obliterate his entire head, which already happened, and that's a plot hole.

At the end of the day, all of these are bad writing. Fans can find justifications and try to connect the dots to explain the sudden writing decisions, but the reality is that the GT writers, much like Toriyama, were only concerned with writing something for the week and getting their paychecks, but only one of these works gets trashed on for having bad writing.

[Yuli Ban]

I mean, both are. The normie opinion is that Dragon Ball has bad writing and is the simplest of the big shōnen series due to lacking those wangsty backstories and flashback pr0n and overt magic/power systems. And considering how much of a mess Dragon Ball's plot is...yeah, that's hard to argue against.

Of course that highlights the difference between PLOT and STORYTELLING.
You can have the deepest plot imaginable with endless numbers of threads, characters, motivations, and melodrama, but if your storytelling is awful, no one other than literati nerds and 14-year-olds obsessed with "darkness" and "depth" will care.
Likewise, you could have a plot that's able to be simply and deeply summed up in "Character does X" with no real further depth beyond that, but if you're a masterful storyteller, a billion people will eagerly read it to the end a thousand times over.
Good storytelling can overpower bad writing.

Dragon Ball has fantastic storytelling despite its threadbare, often nonsensical plot. No one would like it otherwise! And when that storytelling falls apart, its flaws become open and disgusting to experience as a result, and that's what happened with GT and parts of Super.
I'd certainly love a deeper, more complicated plot, but as long as the storytelling is good, I'm satisfied.

[Scsigs]

Genuinely, if you think the majority of the DB franchise has garbage-tier writing & execution, why are you on a fan forum for it? Seems like a giant waste of time, honestly.

[AliTheZombie13]

Genuinely, if you think the majority of the DB franchise has garbage-tier writing & execution, why are you on a fan forum for it? Seems like a giant waste of time, honestly.

Because I don't watch things, especially anime, for how well they're written.
I mean, it factors, but I can appreciate a work as long as it does a good enough job of keeping me entertained.
I don't watch Power Rangers because it's a deep, philosophical analysis of life, I watch it to see giant rubber monsters get beaten.

Much like Power Rangers, DB's writing is garbage, much like several other shows, but I still love it either way.
It's junk food, and while I won't argue mine tastes better than yours, I'll argue mine tastes just as good to me.
Either way, even if I think the writing is garbage, discussing it is fun.

[Yuli Ban]

Then Piccolo Randomly Dies - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Baby Arc Part 19

Dragon Ball Dissection December reaches its conclusion and with it, so too does The Baby Arc! The heroes heroically save everyone from an exploding Earth... and then Piccolo randomly dies. Was he in this story?

Yay, I made it to the end of the year again! Whew. I so hope you've enjoyed DBD December this year!

Indeed, I did, as usual.

You know, I will say that the argument that Goku doesn't fit as Baby's antagonist could be fudged just a bit if you just shifted it to give Baby that character arc of realizing that this batch of Saiyans are indeed morally different from the ones he knew by ancestral memory. Sure, Vegeta still would be more fitting overall, but the idea of a kind-hearted and relatively heroic Saiyan standing up to Baby in a way that harkens back to the way the Tsufruians stood up to the Saiyans originally would work so well to play against Baby's thinking and prejudices, especially if it actually bothered him that this Saiyan is fighting on behalf of innocents who aren't even of his own race, and ESPECIALLY if Goku was trying to appeal to reason. Like I said elsewhere, maybe on YouTube, imagine Goku and Vegeta offering to wish Planet Plant back for Baby and the Tsufruians, even bringing the race back to life, but it's Baby's own megalomaniacal pride and desire for revenge that shuts it down. Like the proverbial racist that can't get over his prejudice, no matter the evidence to the contrary, to the point he's willing to sabotage his own benefits just to make sure the other side loses.
That's deeper than Dragon Ball used to be, but there's certainly drama (and even comedy) potential in that.

Maybe if the Baby arc was instead "Dragon Ball Z movie 14" and followed in the footsteps of and improved upon 13 (or if they went back to their roots in more ways than one and did a redux retelling of the Baby arc as a movie), they could have done that. And all that could have been!

[AliTheZombie13]

Then Piccolo Randomly Dies - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Baby Arc Part 19

Dragon Ball Dissection December reaches its conclusion and with it, so too does The Baby Arc! The heroes heroically save everyone from an exploding Earth... and then Piccolo randomly dies. Was he in this story?

Yay, I made it to the end of the year again! Whew. I so hope you've enjoyed DBD December this year!

Indeed, I did, as usual.

You know, I will say that the argument that Goku doesn't fit as Baby's antagonist could be fudged just a bit if you just shifted it to give Baby that character arc of realizing that this batch of Saiyans are indeed morally different from the ones he knew by ancestral memory. Sure, Vegeta still would be more fitting overall, but the idea of a kind-hearted and relatively heroic Saiyan standing up to Baby in a way that harkens back to the way the Tsufruians stood up to the Saiyans originally would work so well to play against Baby's thinking and prejudices, especially if it actually bothered him that this Saiyan is fighting on behalf of innocents who aren't even of his own race, and ESPECIALLY if Goku was trying to appeal to reason. Like I said elsewhere, maybe on YouTube, imagine Goku and Vegeta offering to wish Planet Plant back for Baby and the Tsufruians, even bringing the race back to life, but it's Baby's own megalomaniacal pride and desire for revenge that shuts it down. Like the proverbial racist that can't get over his prejudice, no matter the evidence to the contrary, to the point he's willing to sabotage his own benefits just to make sure the other side loses.
That's deeper than Dragon Ball used to be, but there's certainly drama (and even comedy) potential in that.

Maybe if the Baby arc was instead "Dragon Ball Z movie 14" and followed in the footsteps of and improved upon 13 (or if they went back to their roots in more ways than one and did a redux retelling of the Baby arc as a movie), they could have done that. And all that could have been!

That was something I forgot to mention, yes.
Pan's moment where she comes up crying to Baby's face to tell him that her mother, father, entire family had absolutely nothing to do with anything that happened to the Tsufurians, only for Baby to laugh at her and call her a worthless monkey, really demonstrates that there doesn't need to be a deep reason why the characters are being targeted, they're being targeted because the antagonist is a despicable racist, and they just so happen to be the race he hates, period.

Also, I finally figured out why Baby is targeting Goku, Pan, etc. when he's slaving everyone else: Plot convenience The end of episode 27 has a line where he says, "But Goku, since you acted directly against me, you shall perish by my own hands!" Now, why he's targeting Goku specifically, or why he left out Trunks only to target Pan and Satan and Oob and everyone else who acts against him without enslaving them, ask the GT writers 'cuz that boggles my mind. Plot convenience

[Yuli Ban]

Indeed.
I suppose the issue here is that, if you want the Baby arc to have that theme I mentioned, what Baby needs isn't even doubt in his own terms but rather a foil: another Tsufruian who DOES see the good in the modern Saiyans, who also matters to Baby enough to affect him, at least until Baby completely loses himself in his own hypocrisy and power lust.

[Hellspawn28]

Genuinely, if you think the majority of the DB franchise has garbage-tier writing & execution, why are you on a fan forum for it? Seems like a giant waste of time, honestly.

People can still enjoy something for what it is. The writing in DB isn't great seeing that Toriyama just made stuff up as he went along and very little of it made for a cohesive narrative. However, I still find the series to be enjoyable never the less.

[Noah]

It had been almost a year since the last time I posted on this thread, better comment about all your recent videos:

- You know that 'lady alert' from Pan is not new to me in early Dragon Ball, I know for sure I heard that from other character (probably Bulma)

- Even when I was a kid I didn't like Pan abused Giru and that Dolltaki scene with her as doll always creep me up, even though I didn't had the view at the time to portray him as an abuser

- Wow, never noticed how convoluted were all those twists regarding who was the actual villain of the arc

- I remember not liking much the battles between Goku, the Sigma and Rildo, but since you like it... I better watch it another day, maybe it could change my view

- I guess we can all agree that Baby is Hatchyack done better. Also the backstory of the Saiyans is really messed if we count all material avaliable until today

- I don't know if is a dub thing, but didn't Elder Kaioshin says from the beginning that all he want to do is turn Goku into a Super Saiyan 4? Which is also confusing as how he knows about it?

- Never noticed the gravity thing lol by all the matters, all the earthlings should be crushed in Plant, either that or being possessed by Baby gave them some kind of body resistance (GT logic)

- Piccolo's sacrifice in GT as always a moment that gave me chills whenever I watched it, but I have to agree with you it was just drama for the sake of drama

- Baby arc is by far the best arc of GT, glad you liked it, but I am anxious to see your thoughts about the later (and quite awful) part of the series

- Sad that you didn't have a great 2023, I identified with the part about spending a fortune on hardware problems lol, I suffered from this same problem too. Hope for a great 2024 to all of us.



But before I forget... Weren't you going to talk about the series soundtrack? Not just the opening and thr endings, but also the BGM? Sad that the dissections no longer start with the show's soundtrack, but well... I believe you do that to avoid copyright issues.

[Gaffer Tape]

It had been almost a year since the last time I posted on this thread, better comment about all your recent videos:

- You know that 'lady alert' from Pan is not new to me in early Dragon Ball, I know for sure I heard that from other character (probably Bulma)

Blooma getting on Popo's carpet immediately springs to mind. I just don't know if it's quite as much of a runner as it is here.

- I remember not liking much the battles between Goku, the Sigma and Rildo, but since you like it... I better watch it another day, maybe it could change my view

I don't know if I like them all that much. I just appreciate some aspects of them. Hey, if you end up enjoying them more, that's great.

- I don't know if is a dub thing, but didn't Elder Kaioshin says from the beginning that all he want to do is turn Goku into a Super Saiyan 4? Which is also confusing as how he knows about it?

I really don't know what the dub did. In the original, he does mention Super Saiyan 4, but it's not until after Goku has gone back to fight.

- Sad that you didn't have a great 2023, I identified with the part about spending a fortune on hardware problems lol, I suffered from this same problem too. Hope for a great 2024 to all of us.

Thanks for the well-wishes. I hope we both have a better 2024 as well.

But before I forget... Weren't you going to talk about the series soundtrack? Not just the opening and thr endings, but also the BGM? Sad that the dissections no longer start with the show's soundtrack, but well... I believe you do that to avoid copyright issues.

I have talked about it some. I think I did a bit in the 10th anniversary movie, and I singled out a track during DBD December. Hopefully I'll talk more about it. I'm just not sure how much I have to say.

[Yuli Ban]

@Gaffer Tape

Here's a fun fact: as of the Nü Broly movie, the whole Tsufruian thing is essentially retconned in its entirety. Sure, it was always filler, but since we now know that it was Freeza who introduced scouters to the Saiyans, pretty much nothing Kaio told Goku is true anymore, and the Tsufruians don't really exist in any canon capacity besides being mentioned in Super.
It's funny just because the Baby arc is so dependent upon that flashback being true, with the only retcon being who destroyed Planet Vegeta. But as of now, we literally have no clue as to what the history of the Saiyans pre-King Cold had been.
As if GT didn't need more to undermine its existence. I suppose it's still possible that Saiyans and Tsufruians did fight at some point, but we have no clue how that actually went. Heck, that actually would open up the possibility of Tsufruians still existing. If Daima is a GT redux, maybe they'll play that angle...

[Gaffer Tape]

Tournament of Filler? - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Super #17 Arc Part 1

It's a new year and a new arc! It's time for a tournament! A standalone episode in a serialized series. Is this filler in a series without filler? Let's find out in all of its butt-patting, lollipop-licking, traffic jam glory! Dragon Ball Dissection has returned! Check it out!

[AliTheZombie13]

If "filler" doesn't mean "content not available in the manga", then it means "padding". Simple as that.
GT doesn't have "filler", but has loads of unnecessary padding, so I can understand why people say that.
That said, I thought the tournament episode was cute, it managed to do the impossible: Make me care for Mr. Satan.

[Vegetto95]

That said, I thought the tournament episode was cute, it managed to do the impossible: Make me care for Mr. Satan.

Sooooo... his whole friendship character arc with innocent Majin Boo, going from trying to blow Boo up to later tearing up the "victory" picture, cooking for Boo out of the goodness of his heart, and beating up the gunmen who shot Bee wasn't able to make you care for him? Or him stepping up and getting the people of Earth to donate their Genki, making him probably the biggest deciding factor next to Polunga in finally defeating pure Boo? Or him saving Vegeta from the Genki-dama's blast radius immediately after? And hell, even loooong before any of that, his tossing of No.16's head was instrumental to another one of the franchise's biggest, most climactic and emotionally impactful moments (Gohan transforming into Super Saiyan 2). Seriously? NONE of those amazing character moments made you care for Mr. Satan?

I dunno about you, but all of those things made me care about Mr. Satan A LOT, WELL before GT ever began (much less 41 whole episodes in lol). It really seems like there's a huge portion of the western DB fanbase that really dislikes Mr. Satan WAAAAY more than he deserves, usually due to grievously misunderstanding him as a character and his whole point in the story. And it sucks... I honestly find him to be one of the best characters in the whole series.

[AliTheZombie13]

That said, I thought the tournament episode was cute, it managed to do the impossible: Make me care for Mr. Satan.

Sooooo... his whole friendship character arc with innocent Majin Boo, going from trying to blow Boo up to later tearing up the "victory" picture, cooking for Boo out of the goodness of his heart, and beating up the gunmen who shot Bee wasn't able to make you care for him? Or him stepping up and getting the people of Earth to donate their Genki, making him probably the biggest deciding factor next to Polunga in finally defeating pure Boo? Or him saving Vegeta from the Genki-dama's blast radius immediately after? And hell, even loooong before any of that, his tossing of No.16's head was instrumental to another one of the franchise's biggest, most climactic and emotionally impactful moments (Gohan transforming into Super Saiyan 2). Seriously? NONE of those amazing character moments made you care for Mr. Satan?

I dunno about you, but all of those things made me care about Mr. Satan A LOT, WELL before GT ever began (much less 41 whole episodes in lol). It really seems like there's a huge portion of the western DB fanbase that really dislikes Mr. Satan WAAAAY more than he deserves, usually due to grievously misunderstanding him as a character and his whole point in the story. And it sucks... I honestly find him to be one of the best characters in the whole series.

GT was simply more cathartic.
Seeing this character who I was practically begging to get killed every second of his screen time in Cell, the 1st part of Boo and Super, actually get his ass kicked after seeing him get developed in GT (mourning the brainwashing of his loved ones, caring for Pan, and mourning Boo) was the actual moment that it dawned on me, "Oh shit, I actually like Mr. Satan."

[Koitsukai]

Last House episodes really turn me the fuck off. I like Tenkaichi Budokais but this one didn't do much for me, even though it was a nice change of pace, but what transpired didn't entice me, but I always wonder if a different artstyle would make me enjoy some episodes a bit more.

But what I can't get my head around is the fact that Uub fuses with Buu but has no clue about Mr. Satan. After a decade, or two, spent by Buu in Satan's mancave... Uub gets all the techniques, magic tricks, everything, but nothing about Mr. Satan, nothing at all about their platonic relationship? it's not like Buu had bonds with the entire gang, it's all Mr. Satan for him, they are like Joel and Ellie. Uub has no clue who Mr. Satan is, "oh the champ, he must be strong".

I could buy this if it was regular Uub, but post-fusion, after Uub learns how to do magic, turn people into candy, prevent the magic from coming back and bite him in the ass, learning how to be an H-Pylory bacteria, he still thinks Mr. Satan is somewhat of a Z fighter?... I mean come on, there were other avenues to end up with Uub funnily beating him up, without keeping him in the dark, like... "I'll try to go soft on him because he is weak, he needs to save face, and is also a former friend", and still be way too much for Satan to handle. "Ok, a little softer now.. nope... ok again.. nope.. alright, just how weak is he??".
Especially, when fusion and absorptions always have the mainholder able to access pretty much every bit of info. Piccolo knew about Namek and Saichoro, Vegeta knew about MSSB, Super Buu knows everything, Baby gets access to the host's medical records and family history...

I mean, it's possible that this fusion is purely on a technical level, but it's too convenient so they could have this silly fight. I knows it's a minor thing, but I want the gang to be a little more close, to at least know each other, even if they don't hang out that often, and Uub being unaware of Mr. Satan being a poser, being just like Farmer with Shotgun for that matter, just shatters that dream of mine.

[coola]

GT Buu was so much better than Super Buu, who was exactly what Vegeta feared he would be, dangerous brat.

As for filler, I'm also in "stuff that wasn't in original material" definition

[Gaffer Tape]

A Hero's Clone - Dragon Ball Dissection: Goku's Side Story! Siu Xing Qiu is a Testament to Courage

It's time for a new Dragon Ball Dissection! It's the GT special, which is not the GT movie because GT has no movie. (Just me saying that has already gotten backlash... thanks, FUNimation!) But we have some little kid running around claiming to be Goku even though he can't even catch a ball, which is the most basic Goku trait!