Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
lansing wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:54 pm
There is no need for guesswork when you know the exact color used for the character model
Spoiler:
Disagree. Even with the colour chart you posted is completely unusable on the Dbox footage without causing artefacts, and given that most of the colour is far outside of BT601 color space, it is completely unthinkable that those colours are anywhere close to accurate or that they should be used for colour correction. It just doesn't make sense.
I don't even understand your argument. How is the problem of you having artifact have anything to do with the color chart being accurate?
Dragon Ball was broadcast in 480i standard def. That points to the fact that animators did not intend to use colours that no existing display at the time would show as the final look. CRT’s in the 80s and early 90s are limited to BT601colour space. That’s the maximum amount of colour they could display. How does it make sense for the show to be using colours that fall well outside, not only BT601 but also BT709. An HD standard?
Your colour chart can’t be accurate for that reason alone. At best they are a cool revisionist take of what DB might look like if it was animated today, but as far as what it used to look like when it was brand new back in the 80s and 90s, and what anyone saw, including the creators of the show, those colors aren't even close.The final product never looked like that.
This goku one is one of the preview image from mandarake auction, too bad the sheets were sold 9 years ago. You get them from auction from time to time. I brought the sheets for movie 4 and 5 last year, but got outbidded for movie 16 by some crazy bidder, as it went over $300.
Ideally, if there are three characters in a scene and we know the color for two of them, we may be able to get the color of the last one when we matched the other two. So it is possible to get the color for most of the characters if not all. But I'm not crazy enough to try it, it's a lot of work.
lansing wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:54 pm
There is no need for guesswork when you know the exact color used for the character model
Cool find! You definitely want to be a tad cautious with relying solely on pictures you find on the internet. I thought the "white" color sample looked a little weird and checked myself.
Sure enough... it's unfortunately faded a tad. Looks like it's slowly becoming yellow, or it could be the result of the way the room is lit when the picture was taken. Here's a side by side for anyone having trouble seeing:
Where "Picture White" is the sample I got and "Actual White" is what we would expect to see.
lansing wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:54 pm
There is no need for guesswork when you know the exact color used for the character model
Cool find! You definitely want to be a tad cautious with relying solely on pictures you find on the internet. I thought the "white" color sample looked a little weird and checked myself.
Sure enough... it's unfortunately faded a tad. Looks like it's slowly becoming yellow, or it could be the result of the way the room is lit when the picture was taken. Here's a side by side for anyone having trouble seeing:
Where "Picture White" is the sample I got and "Actual White" is what we would expect to see.
Nice find! Just more evidence that all these supposed "accurate sources" should be treated with a grain of salt. Like a mountain of it in fact.
Yeah you gotta diversify and be smart. I'm sure there are some colors there that look fine but just like most things in life, you don't want to get tunnel vision and focus on one thing only.
There's a group on Twitter that has a really good example of corrections on Dragon Ball GT. I'm not sure a chart from the original Dragon Ball would 100% dictate the colors so you have to look elsewhere. https://twitter.com/seedofmight/status/ ... 6354312192
vanner64 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:59 pm
Yeah you gotta diversify and be smart. I'm sure there are some colors there that look fine but just like most things in life, you don't want to get tunnel vision and focus on one thing only.
There's a group on Twitter that has a really good example of corrections on Dragon Ball GT. I'm not sure a chart from the original Dragon Ball would 100% dictate the colors so you have to look elsewhere. https://twitter.com/seedofmight/status/ ... 6354312192
Agreed! Multiple sources and a bit of common sense is clearly the way to go for a project like this. Like those pics on twitter look really nice. Nothing is pushed to a ludicrous point where you start making the image fall apart with artefacts or some other weird nonsense. Not to mention the images you yourself posted in this thread some pages back looked fantastic!
lansing wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:54 pm
There is no need for guesswork when you know the exact color used for the character model
Spoiler:
Cool find! You definitely want to be a tad cautious with relying solely on pictures you find on the internet. I thought the "white" color sample looked a little weird and checked myself.
Sure enough... it's unfortunately faded a tad. Looks like it's slowly becoming yellow, or it could be the result of the way the room is lit when the picture was taken. Here's a side by side for anyone having trouble seeing:
Where "Picture White" is the sample I got and "Actual White" is what we would expect to see.
The color are put on top by me using the color chart. Why are you asking the exact same question when I had already told you the answer last time. Have you not read my reply?
lansing wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:54 pm
There is no need for guesswork when you know the exact color used for the character model
Spoiler:
Cool find! You definitely want to be a tad cautious with relying solely on pictures you find on the internet. I thought the "white" color sample looked a little weird and checked myself.
Spoiler:
Sure enough... it's unfortunately faded a tad. Looks like it's slowly becoming yellow, or it could be the result of the way the room is lit when the picture was taken. Here's a side by side for anyone having trouble seeing:
Spoiler:
Where "Picture White" is the sample I got and "Actual White" is what we would expect to see.
Nice find! Just more evidence that all these supposed "accurate sources" should be treated with a grain of salt. Like a mountain of it in fact.
What more "evidence" do I need when I HAVE the actual color chart?
When the white on the color charts isn't even actually white, I think it stands to reason they weren't meant to reflect the final product
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words? Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up! Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes! Cold World (Fanfic) "It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler
What more "evidence" do I need when I HAVE the actual color chart?
Spoiler:
We've been through this before, but studios picked their colors depending on the film stock they used, considering that each film stock captures color differently. The color charts you're refencing or the cells are not an actual representation of the intended colors by the producers, rather the colors first captured on the master negatives and a bit less so on the first broadcasts are.
I mean using exact measurements for the hue doesn't always work on D-box. Some times you can get the exact number (let's say that the skin is hue angle is 3 and it is to pink/red and on the chart it should be "like 12 or 15 somthing like that". At times it fits like a charm and others it looks weerd and you need to play with the colours to get it right.
Just get more sources and get as close as possible, or just yolo it
What more "evidence" do I need when I HAVE the actual color chart?
Spoiler:
We've been through this before, but studios picked their colors depending on the film stock they used, considering that each film stock captures color differently. The color charts you're refencing or the cells are not an actual representation of the intended colors by the producers, rather the colors first captured on the master negatives and a bit less so on the first broadcasts are.
No that story has been debunked a while back. It began with a few people not understanding what an article about cel painting was talking about. As the wrong information being passed around, a whole fantasy was built around it by others.
Seriously where did this false narrative that the animators not only know by heart how each negative film stock alters colors but also hand paints each episode to match how it will be altered and even knows ahead of time what toei will be providing for them each week? It seems like serious fan copium trying to push that th cells arent correct but instead the frame they did in Photoshop is.
Heck even actual movie directors and aniamtors have said cells are good to use for reference for color correction. Original trilogy forums has a couple threads doing work based on that
Cool find! You definitely want to be a tad cautious with relying solely on pictures you find on the internet. I thought the "white" color sample looked a little weird and checked myself.
Spoiler:
Sure enough... it's unfortunately faded a tad. Looks like it's slowly becoming yellow, or it could be the result of the way the room is lit when the picture was taken. Here's a side by side for anyone having trouble seeing:
Spoiler:
Where "Picture White" is the sample I got and "Actual White" is what we would expect to see.
Nice find! Just more evidence that all these supposed "accurate sources" should be treated with a grain of salt. Like a mountain of it in fact.
What more "evidence" do I need when I HAVE the actual color chart?
OK... I see a keychain of colors, and I see the chart of Goku with some colors added to them. But something has gone wrong in between looking at the keychain and the actual image with colors you added. I took a sample of the white tab (and tried my hardest to get a part that wasn't in shadow) and this is what I got:
Sources with R, G, B values.
And for anyone who disagrees or doesn't know who to believe, you are you free to check yourself and prove me right/wrong!
The only opinion I'll give is that to me the keychain white is close to enough to actual white that we can say it should be actual white and maybe there was just something up with the lighting.
I see you have the chart but something has gone wrong along the way. If I had a map to New York City and we plan a trip to Times Square but end up in the middle of the woods, I don't get to tell you "No we're not lost, what more "evidence" do I need when I HAVE the actual map?"
Cool find! You definitely want to be a tad cautious with relying solely on pictures you find on the internet. I thought the "white" color sample looked a little weird and checked myself.
Spoiler:
Sure enough... it's unfortunately faded a tad. Looks like it's slowly becoming yellow, or it could be the result of the way the room is lit when the picture was taken. Here's a side by side for anyone having trouble seeing:
Spoiler:
Where "Picture White" is the sample I got and "Actual White" is what we would expect to see.
Nice find! Just more evidence that all these supposed "accurate sources" should be treated with a grain of salt. Like a mountain of it in fact.
What more "evidence" do I need when I HAVE the actual color chart?
It has been already explained countless times but just as a quick refresher.
1. The white isn't even white as vanner demonstrated.
2. Color chart can not be used on the Dragon Boxes without causing artifacts. So it pretty much makes them useless, even if they were accurate, which they aren't
3. No display showed those colors back in the 80s and 90s and yet we are supposed to take you word that the color chart is accurate.
Basically you need far more evidence than just that useless color chart.
Nice find! Just more evidence that all these supposed "accurate sources" should be treated with a grain of salt. Like a mountain of it in fact.
What more "evidence" do I need when I HAVE the actual color chart?
OK... I see a keychain of colors, and I see the chart of Goku with some colors added to them. But something has gone wrong in between looking at the keychain and the actual image with colors you added. I took a sample of the white tab (and tried my hardest to get a part that wasn't in shadow) and this is what I got:
Sources with R, G, B values.
And for anyone who disagrees or doesn't know who to believe, you are you free to check yourself and prove me right/wrong!
The only opinion I'll give is that to me the keychain white is close to enough to actual white that we can say it should be actual white and maybe there was just something up with the lighting.
I see you have the chart but something has gone wrong along the way. If I had a map to New York City and we plan a trip to Times Square but end up in the middle of the woods, I don't get to tell you "No we're not lost, what more "evidence" do I need when I HAVE the actual map?"
Image taken from phone cannot be use as a reference because phone companies all added their own adjustments to it, such as auto white balance and curve. They're not the true representation of the actual color. This is why photographers bring colorchecker to photoshoot so they can fix the color in post. Here's a before/after of a photo taken from my phone and one after calibration.
My color chart was scanned from a calibrated scanner which was calibrated using the newest 860 patches IT8 target with average deltaE of 0.6. The tldr is, it's as accurate as you can get.
There is nothing wrong with the scan, that is what the "white" of the chart actually looks like. These charts were hand painted in the 80s and 90s, you are out of your mind if you think they would be bit perfect 255, 255, 255.
Nice find! Just more evidence that all these supposed "accurate sources" should be treated with a grain of salt. Like a mountain of it in fact.
What more "evidence" do I need when I HAVE the actual color chart?
Spoiler:
It has been already explained countless times but just as a quick refresher.
1. The white isn't even white as vanner demonstrated.
2. Color chart can not be used on the Dragon Boxes without causing artifacts. So it pretty much makes them useless, even if they were accurate, which they aren't
3. No display showed those colors back in the 80s and 90s and yet we are supposed to take you word that the color chart is accurate.
Basically you need far more evidence than just that useless color chart.
What does any of these points you made have anything to do with the chart being accurate??? If you don't know how to use it, the problem is you, not the chart.
What more "evidence" do I need when I HAVE the actual color chart?
Spoiler:
It has been already explained countless times but just as a quick refresher.
1. The white isn't even white as vanner demonstrated.
2. Color chart can not be used on the Dragon Boxes without causing artifacts. So it pretty much makes them useless, even if they were accurate, which they aren't
3. No display showed those colors back in the 80s and 90s and yet we are supposed to take you word that the color chart is accurate.
Basically you need far more evidence than just that useless color chart.
What does any of these points you made have anything to do with the chart being accurate??? If you don't know how to use it, the problem is you, not the chart.
It by definition can't be accurate if no one ever saw these colors being displayed on screens at the time. You are here literally arguing that we should correct the Dragon Boxes to some colors that even modern displays have a hard time accurately showing. It's pure nonsense. Your method has more holes than Swiss cheese.
It's not me not knowing how to use them ,it's that they can't be and should be used with the material that we have. I know it must suck having spent all that money on a chart that has no value whatsoever but the reality is that it won't help color correct the Dragon Boxes one single bit. Which is what this thread is about.
