Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

[lansing]

There is no way to know. That’s the thing.

His method is so far out there and it is built on layers and layers of wild assumptions that I don’t even know where to begin. I can’t make heads or tails out of his reasoning as to why he is so convinced that he has unlocked the secrets of the universe with this. The only logical thing to assume is the cost sunk fallacy. He invested money into this, so he has to convince himself and others that it was justified.

Some quick bullet points.
...

2. He thinks that colors that are in the P3/rec2020 colors space that barely any modern tv can even properly reproduce is a good idea to use on a show that is animated in the 80s and 90s. A show that was produced using colors in the bt601 colors space. (Not even 30000 dollar professional PVMs’s and BVM’s exceeded rec 601 in the 80s and 90s) and at the time of broadcast DB was never intended to have a home release.

3. Then moves the goal posts and suggest that Dragon Ball never had accurate colors as it was broadcast and new. What???

There is no "he thinks." It's a given fact that the gamut of cel color far exceeded the gamut of SDTV. And what did the television producers do in order to broadcast it? They clipped it, just like what they would do with any other show in the 80s/90s, duh?

4. Thinks his equipment is accurate which we have no way of knowing but we are supposed to trust him because…reasons?

Why can't you just educate yourself about scanner calibration being running your mouth repeating the same nonsense? Having an average deltaE of 0.6 means accurate, there is nothing to argue about. This seems as if I'm talking to an illiterate.

5. Over the course of this thread suggested that his method is a foundation for color correcting the dragon boxes even though it produces result full of artifacts. Thinks we just don’t know how to use his method. lol

Stop twisting my words. I have never said "my method" is the foundation, I said "having an accurate color chart" is the foundation. What methods to use to achieve the color depends on the users, not me, what method I use is not important.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1580#p1728691

[lansing]

So, in other words, completely unusable on the Dragon Boxes as I said initially, and many others have said over the course of this thread. It has nothing to do with “not knowing how to use them” Thus making the value of the color chart questionable at best, even ignoring all the other caveats. Thank you for admitting it at least.

That is not what the sentence meant. You really need better comprehensive skill. Having a color chart and figuring how to use it are two different things. The chart is not useless because you don't know how to use it.

[johnny1132]

So, in other words, completely unusable on the Dragon Boxes as I said initially, and many others have said over the course of this thread. It has nothing to do with “not knowing how to use them” Thus making the value of the color chart questionable at best, even ignoring all the other caveats. Thank you for admitting it at least.

That is not what the sentence meant. You really need better comprehensive skill. Having a color chart and figuring how to use it are two different things. The chart is not useless because you don't know how to use it.

Well how exactly ARE we meant to use it then? It's been proven incompatible with the dragon boxes, and pretty much every other release of DB is shit.

[Inkei9001]

We are meant to bow down to him for tracking it down like every idea guy with no skills wants.

[Someoneimportant]

There is no way to know. That’s the thing.

His method is so far out there and it is built on layers and layers of wild assumptions that I don’t even know where to begin. I can’t make heads or tails out of his reasoning as to why he is so convinced that he has unlocked the secrets of the universe with this. The only logical thing to assume is the cost sunk fallacy. He invested money into this, so he has to convince himself and others that it was justified.

Some quick bullet points.
...

2. He thinks that colors that are in the P3/rec2020 colors space that barely any modern tv can even properly reproduce is a good idea to use on a show that is animated in the 80s and 90s. A show that was produced using colors in the bt601 colors space. (Not even 30000 dollar professional PVMs’s and BVM’s exceeded rec 601 in the 80s and 90s) and at the time of broadcast DB was never intended to have a home release.

3. Then moves the goal posts and suggest that Dragon Ball never had accurate colors as it was broadcast and new. What???

There is no "he thinks." It's a given fact that the gamut of cel color far exceeded the gamut of SDTV. And what did the television producers do in order to broadcast it? They clipped it, just like what they would do with any other show in the 80s/90s, duh?

4. Thinks his equipment is accurate which we have no way of knowing but we are supposed to trust him because…reasons?

Why can't you just educate yourself about scanner calibration being running your mouth repeating the same nonsense? Having an average deltaE of 0.6 means accurate, there is nothing to argue about. This seems as if I'm talking to an illiterate.

5. Over the course of this thread suggested that his method is a foundation for color correcting the dragon boxes even though it produces result full of artifacts. Thinks we just don’t know how to use his method. lol

Stop twisting my words. I have never said "my method" is the foundation, I said "having an accurate color chart" is the foundation. What methods to use to achieve the color depends on the users, not me, what method I use is not important.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1580#p1728691

You posted that chart on a thread about color correcting the Dragon Box footage. That’s on you. It is unusable for that purpose, no matter what method you use to try and brute force those colors onto footage that isn’t designed to cope with. Stop wasting everyone’s time with a method you yourself have implied in the last post is impossible to use on the footage that the thread is about.

Furthermore, if SDTV clipped it clipped. That doesn’t make your colors the intended ones, it means the exact opposite. The colors that got clipped are not accurate because nobody ever saw the show with them displayed. Why would anyone try force colors onto the final product was never intended to show those colors? Note: I said final product. This is even ignoring the elephant in the room that colors change when being transferred to film from the cel. So yeah…

Nice of you to assume that I don’t know what the Delta E formula is btw. Anything under two is supposed to be accurate or close enough so that the human eye can’t see a difference, but you have no idea if the scanner itself is accurate. They drift over time. We are just supposed to trust you on this, that your scanner didn't, but I don’t. So, in other words, the scanner might be reporting an DE average of 2 or less but, it is likely far higher. Just as an example, when you are using a colorimeter to calibrate a TV, for instance, it shows you a delta E average of 2 or 3, how close you are to the reference. 0 is perfect but nothing can get that close. But those Delta E readings are completely useless unless you have an expensive spectrophotometer to profile your less expensive colorimeter to.

So that you know that the Delta E readings are correct. Do you have a 30000-dollar Spectro like the Jeti to know what you are doing? or some other way in your case to know that the scanner you used is accurate? doubt it.

Even if you did, for the other reasons I already mentioned, using that color chart is questionable at best even if we had the film reels and completely useless in this case with footage like the Dragon Boxes. Stop polluting this thread with that nonsense unless you can actually show results that are worth a damn.

[lansing]

So, in other words, completely unusable on the Dragon Boxes as I said initially, and many others have said over the course of this thread. It has nothing to do with “not knowing how to use them” Thus making the value of the color chart questionable at best, even ignoring all the other caveats. Thank you for admitting it at least.

That is not what the sentence meant. You really need better comprehensive skill. Having a color chart and figuring how to use it are two different things. The chart is not useless because you don't know how to use it.

Well how exactly ARE we meant to use it then?

Logically the next step to build on top is to collect the color design sheets of the characters (or build one yourself from scattered sources) and paint the corresponding color on the sheet, like the goku one I did earlier. And then get a frame of the character and try to match the color. What method to use to tweak the color depends on you.

It's been proven incompatible with the dragon boxes, and pretty much every other release of DB is shit.

Proven? By who? Well I don't have the dragon box so I don't know. It works fine for me with kai.

https://imgsli.com/MTIzNzIx

Matching two characters, a total of 12 color. Got an average deltaE under 5 with some tweaking, pretty good.

[lansing]

There is no way to know. That’s the thing.

His method is so far out there and it is built on layers and layers of wild assumptions that I don’t even know where to begin. I can’t make heads or tails out of his reasoning as to why he is so convinced that he has unlocked the secrets of the universe with this. The only logical thing to assume is the cost sunk fallacy. He invested money into this, so he has to convince himself and others that it was justified.

Some quick bullet points.
...

2. He thinks that colors that are in the P3/rec2020 colors space that barely any modern tv can even properly reproduce is a good idea to use on a show that is animated in the 80s and 90s. A show that was produced using colors in the bt601 colors space. (Not even 30000 dollar professional PVMs’s and BVM’s exceeded rec 601 in the 80s and 90s) and at the time of broadcast DB was never intended to have a home release.

3. Then moves the goal posts and suggest that Dragon Ball never had accurate colors as it was broadcast and new. What???

There is no "he thinks." It's a given fact that the gamut of cel color far exceeded the gamut of SDTV. And what did the television producers do in order to broadcast it? They clipped it, just like what they would do with any other show in the 80s/90s, duh?

4. Thinks his equipment is accurate which we have no way of knowing but we are supposed to trust him because…reasons?

Why can't you just educate yourself about scanner calibration being running your mouth repeating the same nonsense? Having an average deltaE of 0.6 means accurate, there is nothing to argue about. This seems as if I'm talking to an illiterate.

5. Over the course of this thread suggested that his method is a foundation for color correcting the dragon boxes even though it produces result full of artifacts. Thinks we just don’t know how to use his method. lol

Stop twisting my words. I have never said "my method" is the foundation, I said "having an accurate color chart" is the foundation. What methods to use to achieve the color depends on the users, not me, what method I use is not important.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1580#p1728691

You posted that chart on a thread about color correcting the Dragon Box footage. That’s on you. It is unusable for that purpose, no matter what method you use to try and brute force those colors onto footage that isn’t designed to cope with. Stop wasting everyone’s time with a method you yourself have implied in the last post is impossible to use on the footage that the thread is about.

Dude you are the one who replies to me when I was talking to Pride9000!!! when we were both trying to match to cel. If you don't buy the idea, don't join the conversation.

Furthermore, if SDTV clipped it clipped. That doesn’t make your colors the intended ones, it means the exact opposite. The colors that got clipped are not accurate because nobody ever saw the show with them displayed. Why would anyone try force colors onto the final product was never intended to show those colors? Note: I said final product. This is even ignoring the elephant in the room that colors change when being transferred to film from the cel. So yeah…

What are you saying dude??

Nice of you to assume that I don’t know what the Delta E formula is btw. Anything under two is supposed to be accurate or close enough so that the human eye can’t see a difference, but you have no idea if the scanner itself is accurate. They drift over time. We are just supposed to trust you on this, that your scanner didn't, but I don’t. So, in other words, the scanner might be reporting an DE average of 2 or less but, it is likely far higher.

This clearly shows that you don't know anything about scanner calibration. Scanner Calibration 101: What do you do when your scanner drifted? You calibrate it again, duh.

Just as an example, when you are using a colorimeter to calibrate a TV, for instance, it shows you a delta E average of 2 or 3, how close you are to the reference. 0 is perfect but nothing can get that close. But those Delta E readings are completely useless unless you have an expensive spectrophotometer to profile your less expensive colorimeter to.

The people from Calibrite and Silverfast may want to speak with you because you're basically saying that their device and software are useless lol.

So that you know that the Delta E readings are correct. Do you have a 30000-dollar Spectro like the Jeti to know what you are doing? or some other way in your case to know that the scanner you used is accurate? doubt it.

Yes there is software that can cross check by comparing the color of the scanned image of the IT8 target and its reference file, and I did that already lol.

[ikaos]

Well I don't have the dragon box so I don't know. It works fine for me with kai.

Pretty sure this was stated earlier but this is a Dragon Box thread sir

[Someoneimportant]

Dude you are the one who replies to me when I was talking to Pride9000!!! when we were both trying to match to cel. If you don't buy the idea, don't join the conversation.

You responded to me with a picture of your color chart and have been parading it around in this thread like it is the holy grail for color correction and a bullet proof method for pages on end, don’t want people to comment on a public forum about it? don’t post it.

I have issues with you declaring it as the undisputed king when it comes to accuracy, but no good examples came from you that it is. If I’m not mistaken, you initially brought it up a couple of years ago because you thought that the traditional method of white balancing first and then hue shifting would be too slow and impractical. (It isn’t because it has already been done)

People like Ashura, Vanner, Pride9000, iKaos…plenty of others have done a great job at color correcting the Dragon Boxes without causing any artifacts. So don’t get pissy at other people for questioning your chart’s practicality or accuracy for correcting the Dragon Boxes.

Because you have shown yourself with the pictures that you posted that it is worthless for achieving that goal. Even when another user here, Venny posted and highlighted the sheer amounts of artifacts in the image that the color chart produces when applied on the Dbox footage. The only thing you could respond to him was something along the lines of that he “ignored context and that the framing was disgusting” Meanwhile the people who have done the work at color correcting the Dragon Boxes, you keep insulting for no reason whatsoever. I'm getting tired of this arrogance and hypocrisy!

What are you saying dude??

I will explain it in another way for you, because you clearly are having such a hard time with this for some reason. Hypothetically speaking if I had a time machine and I used it to go back in time to watch Dragon Ball as it was brand new and intended. You know when the film reels had those fresh, not faded out colors, And watch it on the most expensive professional TV set I can find in the 80s and 90s, with the best accuracy. I could stake my life on the line that the colors that I would be seeing ARE NOT the ones that fall outside of BT601. That little fact means that any colors within your chart that are FAAAR outside of that color space are therefore not accurate. It’s simple when you think about it.

I think this point is self-explanatory enough at this point and I have already stated it in a different froms multiple times to you at this point. I’m pretty sure others at least got what I’m trying to say. i'm not gonna repeat it to you. If you still somehow don't get it.

This clearly shows that you don't know anything about scanner calibration. Scanner Calibration 101: What do you do when your scanner drifted? You calibrate it again, duh.
The people from Calibrite and Silverfast may want to speak with you because you're basically saying that their device and software are useless lol.
Yes there is software that can cross check by comparing the color of the scanned image of the IT8 target and its reference file, and I did that already lol.

I will go and read up on this because I have some serious doubts you did this correctly but don’t worry, I will get back to you when I do.

Just a piece of advice though, I wouldn’t go around making assumptions about what other people know and don’t know about a particular topic. Especially when you yourself have shown BLATANT signs to be the walking definition of the Dunning Kruger effect ITT.

Then you even flat out admit that you don’t have the Dragon Boxes and used a picture of KAI instead! With a Delta E of 5? (Holy moly, I don’t even have to read more, to know that the result is bad!) And that’s with HD footage to boot! Just imagining the Delta error with SD footage like the Dragon Boxes is making me

Seriously, why are you even in a thread that’s about coloR correcting the Dragon Boxes specifically? Because you clearly don’t give a crap about doing that. Look, I have ZERO issues with you making a thread called something like...

“Color Correcting some imaginary version of Dragon Ball that we don’t have access to!”
“What colors would Dragon Ball have if it was re animated?”
“What would happen if we used this color chart to mess up the colors of Kai?”

See this is my FUNDAMENTAL problem with you and your posts!
It’s like I’m talking to a child who hasn’t even read the thread title and what the issues that people are dealing with is. And yet he is going to go around and imply that people are illiterate and blind??? Good grief… the smugness on display for posts on end is truly something else.

[lansing]

Well I don't have the dragon box so I don't know. It works fine for me with kai.

Pretty sure this was stated earlier but this is a Dragon Box thread sir

I'm pretty sure the topic of this thread has been shifted to "color correcting dragon ball" years ago.

[lansing]

Dude you are the one who replies to me when I was talking to Pride9000!!! when we were both trying to match to cel. If you don't buy the idea, don't join the conversation.

You responded to me with a picture of your color chart and have been parading it around in this thread like it is the holy grail for color correction and a bullet proof method for pages on end, don’t want people to comment on a public forum about it? don’t post it.

I have issues with you declaring it as the undisputed king when it comes to accuracy, but no good examples came from you that it is. If I’m not mistaken, you initially brought it up a couple of years ago because you thought that the traditional method of white balancing first and then hue shifting would be too slow and impractical. (It isn’t because it has already been done)

What example is there to show for a color chart? Do you even understand what you're asking?

People like Ashura, Vanner, Pride9000, iKaos…plenty of others have done a great job at color correcting the Dragon Boxes without causing any artifacts. So don’t get pissy at other people for questioning your chart’s practicality or accuracy for correcting the Dragon Boxes.

Because you have shown yourself with the pictures that you posted that it is worthless for achieving that goal. Even when another user here, Venny posted and highlighted the sheer amounts of artifacts in the image that the color chart produces when applied on the Dbox footage. The only thing you could respond to him was something along the lines of that he “ignored context and that the framing was disgusting” Meanwhile the people who have done the work at color correcting the Dragon Boxes, you keep insulting for no reason whatsoever. I'm getting tired of this arrogance and hypocrisy!

I have said this already, having an accurate color chart and the method used to achieve the color are two different things. Having artifact only means that there are room for improvement on the method. It doesn't make the chart inaccurate. There is no relationship between the two.

What are you saying dude??

I will explain it in another way for you, because you clearly are having such a hard time with this for some reason. Hypothetically speaking if I had a time machine and I used it to go back in time to watch Dragon Ball as it was brand new and intended. You know when the film reels had those fresh, not faded out colors, And watch it on the most expensive professional TV set I can find in the 80s and 90s, with the best accuracy. I could stake my life on the line that the colors that I would be seeing ARE NOT the ones that fall outside of BT601. That little fact means that any colors within your chart that are FAAAR outside of that color space are therefore not accurate. It’s simple when you think about it.

I think this point is self-explanatory enough at this point and I have already stated it in a different froms multiple times to you at this point. I’m pretty sure others at least got what I’m trying to say. i'm not gonna repeat it to you. If you still somehow don't get it.

I wondered when are you going to realized that what you had just said makes no sense? The limitation of the SDTV gamut does not determines the accuracy of the cel color, the calibration equipment do. This is just awful logical reasoning.

This clearly shows that you don't know anything about scanner calibration. Scanner Calibration 101: What do you do when your scanner drifted? You calibrate it again, duh.
The people from Calibrite and Silverfast may want to speak with you because you're basically saying that their device and software are useless lol.
Yes there is software that can cross check by comparing the color of the scanned image of the IT8 target and its reference file, and I did that already lol.

I will go and read up on this because I have some serious doubts you did this correctly but don’t worry, I will get back to you when I do.

Just a piece of advice though, I wouldn’t go around making assumptions about what other people know and don’t know about a particular topic. Especially when you yourself have shown BLATANT signs to be the walking definition of the Dunning Kruger effect ITT.

It's not my assumptions, you just proved yourself in your last comment that you don't know these stuffs

Then you even flat out admit that you don’t have the Dragon Boxes and used a picture of KAI instead! With a Delta E of 5? (Holy moly, I don’t even have to read more, to know that the result is bad!) And that’s with HD footage to boot! Just imagining the Delta error with SD footage like the Dragon Boxes is making me

Seriously, why are you even in a thread that’s about coloR correcting the Dragon Boxes specifically? Because you clearly don’t give a crap about doing that. Look, I have ZERO issues with you making a thread called something like...

"Flat out admitted?" You talked as if not having the dragon box is a sin. "Oh he admitted it, he admitted it" lol.

And once again you just proved that you don't know these stuffs. Having an average deltaE under 5 is a pretty good number.

[Someoneimportant]

What example is there to show for a color chart? Do you even understand what you're asking?

I am asking you something very simple. Show us good results of your method working on the Dragon Boxes. If you don’t have them, I’m sure I or many other people in this thread can provide you with batches of screenshots, so that you can blow us all away with your results. We are waiting with bathed breath for you to do this. Something tells me we are going to be waiting for a long time though.

I have said this already, having an accurate color chart and the method used to achieve the color are two different things. Having artifact only means that there are room for improvement on the method. It doesn't make the chart inaccurate. There is no relationship between the two.

Room for improvement? Sorry to rain on your parade as I’m sure you would love to believe that, but there is no room for improvement. Your method has hit a hard wall when it comes to correcting the footage. It can not get better. The system that you are using is abysmal or flat out broken, possibly both, and yet you don’t notice. You need to go back to the drawing board.

I wondered when are you going to realized that what you had just said makes no sense? The limitation of the SDTV gamut does not determines the accuracy of the cel color, the calibration equipment do. This is just awful logical reasoning.

Weird, I was also wondering something too. I was wondering how many times this simple concept has to be pointed out to you as PLAINLY as possible. Colors that NO ONE saw on the final product of Dragon Ball when it was new, CAN NOT by definition be accurate. Maybe someone need to repeat this to you, like a hundred times over until you finally get it. No offence, but I’m pretty sure I have seen three-year-old toddlers with better grasp of simple concept like this. Maybe one day you will finally get over that hump, but it hasn’t happened today unfortunately. I’m rooting for you though.

It's not my assumptions, you just proved yourself in your last comment that you don't know these stuffs

You say this, but you are the one that's about to tell me that an average delta E of under 5 is good.

"Flat out admitted?" You talked as if not having the dragon box is a sin. "Oh he admitted it, he admitted it" lol.

See this is just more evidence of you not actually reading what others are telling you. I never said it was a sin. I never said that, look who is twisting someone’s words right now. It’s just a simple thing to understand, it’s a thread about color correcting Dragon Boxes and all the other sources are crap or incomplete. What use is your chart if it can’t be used on the best source that we have? Again, it’s what the thread is about. Not my fault your system can’t achieve the goal that you said it would.

And once again you just proved that you don't know these stuffs. Having an average deltaE under 5 is a pretty good number.

On what planet is that a pretty good number?
You tell me that “you don’t know these stuffs” and yet you embarrassingly fail to graps how terrible of a result an average deltaE under 5 truly is. That means most colors are visibly inaccurate to the human eyeballs. See if it was a max deltaE of under 5, then it might be pretty alright, as it would maybe only be a single color or two that’s off. But an average? Maybe my standards are just a bit higher than yours but that’s a weak result, not gonna lie.

And then you apply this method to footage like the Dragon Boxes and the result probably becomes an order of magnitude worse. My god, I am getting sick just thinking about it.

[Pride9000!!!]

lansing Let's assume your chart is accurate. It wood be good for only a handful of characters, because we don't have every character on the color guide https://i.imgur.com/LS2n6dq.jpg I have a lot of these but I don't have every character.

Of course this is not also counting background art.

[lansing]

What example is there to show for a color chart? Do you even understand what you're asking?

I am asking you something very simple. Show us good results of your method working on the Dragon Boxes. If you don’t have them, I’m sure I or many other people in this thread can provide you with batches of screenshots, so that you can blow us all away with your results. We are waiting with bathed breath for you to do this. Something tells me we are going to be waiting for a long time though.

The color chart is there to provide a foundation of accurate color so people can rely on when doing color correction. It does not matter what I can do with the chart. Showing results of my method does not affect the accuracy of the chart. What you're asking does not make sense.

Room for improvement? Sorry to rain on your parade as I’m sure you would love to believe that, but there is no room for improvement. Your method has hit a hard wall when it comes to correcting the footage. It can not get better. The system that you are using is abysmal or flat out broken, possibly both, and yet you don’t notice. You need to go back to the drawing board.

It doesn't matter.

You really need to focus on your subject, you are challenging the accuracy of the color chart. What result I get from my method has nothing to do with that.

I wondered when are you going to realized that what you had just said makes no sense? The limitation of the SDTV gamut does not determines the accuracy of the cel color, the calibration equipment do. This is just awful logical reasoning.

Weird, I was also wondering something too. I was wondering how many times this simple concept has to be pointed out to you as PLAINLY as possible. Colors that NO ONE saw on the final product of Dragon Ball when it was new, CAN NOT by definition be accurate. Maybe someone need to repeat this to you, like a hundred times over until you finally get it. No offence, but I’m pretty sure I have seen three-year-old toddlers with better grasp of simple concept like this. Maybe one day you will finally get over that hump, but it hasn’t happened today unfortunately. I’m rooting for you though.

Dude we are talking about going for cel color all along, not the limited SDTV color.

"Flat out admitted?" You talked as if not having the dragon box is a sin. "Oh he admitted it, he admitted it" lol.

See this is just more evidence of you not actually reading what others are telling you. I never said it was a sin. I never said that, look who is twisting someone’s words right now. It’s just a simple thing to understand, it’s a thread about color correcting Dragon Boxes and all the other sources are crap or incomplete. What use is your chart if it can’t be used on the best source that we have? Again, it’s what the thread is about. Not my fault your system can’t achieve the goal that you said it would.

No, this thread has been shifted to talk about color correcting dragon ball in general for years.

You say this, but you are the one that's about to tell me that an average delta E of under 5 is good.
...

And once again you just proved that you don't know these stuffs. Having an average deltaE under 5 is a pretty good number.

On what planet is that a pretty good number?
You tell me that “you don’t know these stuffs” and yet you embarrassingly fail to graps how terrible of a result an average deltaE under 5 truly is. That means most colors are visibly inaccurate to the human eyeballs. See if it was a max deltaE of under 5, then it might be pretty alright, as it would maybe only be a single color or two that’s off. But an average? Maybe my standards are just a bit higher than yours but that’s a weak result, not gonna lie.

And then you apply this method to footage like the Dragon Boxes and the result probably becomes an order of magnitude worse. My god, I am getting sick just thinking about it.

Please don't bluff on stuff you don't know. A one minute google search is not going to help you with this. And keep those trash talk to yourself, it adds nothing to your bluffing.

[VegettoEX]

With massive apologies to Brady who started this thread so, so, so many years ago with the best intentions and lots of great subsequent conversations, the latest batch of posters are clearly interested in nothing more than "No, you're dumb" -> "No, actually you're dumb" -> "No, actually THIS GUY is dumb", except filled with a million extra words effectively saying the same redundant things.

It's embarrassing. It's counter-productive. It's not engaging. No-one's learning anything. Even with administrative guidance, certain individuals don't seem to be able to turn it around.

We're not willing to be host to that kind of conversation... because it's not actually a conversation.

Please review the community guidelines (which you agreed to twice prior to registration), and re-evaluate if that's something you're willing to live up to here.

Additional account strikes may (will?) be issued upon further review.

Once again Brady, I'm very sorry.