Unpopular DB opinions

[GhostEmperorX]

It's a mixed bag. I just recently got finished rewatching the Saiyan arc and the overreliance on music from the first Z movie once Vegeta and Nappa arrive on earth is highly noticeable. I wouldn't go as far as saying it doesn't fit but it does have a feeling of "this music was intended for something else" more often than not. On the other hand, there were definitely music cues introduced in the movies that work better in the series than their original context. Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 theme in Z movie 9 got put to better use as "The Lone warrior says goodbye" music in the Boo saga. The Chorus of Doom while somewhat atmospheric in its usage in Sleeping Princess in Devil's Castle gets put to more chilling and dramatic effect for Piccolo and Kami's deaths, Krillin getting skewered by Freeza, and Vegeta's first death.

True, being hit or miss is a fair assessment thanks to just what sort of convention it was. And that's a good point, sometimes it did work better when used in the series than for what it was originally made. The example you mentioned in particular stands out as working for other kinds of scenes like tragic ones.
One that works about the same in the movies as in the show was Movie 2's Piccolo theme variation that was used in Piccolo vs 2nd form Freeza, since it also had some of Dr. Willow's theme in it, and that motif was mainly attached to Freeza.

The Dead Zone theme from Movie 1 also never really felt like anything that specific, being used quite a bit before and after the Super Saiyan transformation. And for the latter scene, it was a missed opportunity to introduce the Super Saiyan theme within the context of the series as a development of the theme established in the Saiyan Saga.

[Majin Buu]

It should be noted that the score you mentioned was entirely arranged by Katsunori Ishida, where Kikuchi was in charge of the composition.

Ah, good to know. Kikuchi himself may not be the reason that score contains stuff that's typically not in his scores, but I think it shows that his style can be made to sound more "modern" for those who value that.

Though now I'm curious if he had any say in the arrangement process for that score and what his thoughts on the end result were.

The Dead Zone theme from Movie 1 also never really felt like anything that specific, being used quite a bit before and after the Super Saiyan transformation. And for the latter scene, it was a missed opportunity to introduce the Super Saiyan theme within the context of the series as a development of the theme established in the Saiyan Saga.

Perhaps, though considering the movies are often taking story and character cues from the series proper, I like to think that the motifs Kikuchi came up with in the movies would have seen similar form in the series proper. An original Freeza theme would have sounded something like his Cooler theme, an original Buu theme would have sounded something like his Janemba theme, etc.

Looking at it like that, I like to think that Movie 4's version of the Saiyan theme that plays when Goku goes "Super Saiyan" gives us some idea of how Kikuchi might have approached that moment in the series proper.

[GhostEmperorX]

Ah, good to know. Kikuchi himself may not be the reason that score contains stuff that's typically not in his scores, but I think it shows that his style can be made to sound more "modern" for those who value that.

Though now I'm curious if he had any say in the arrangement process for that score and what his thoughts on the end result were.

Honestly depends on who's in charge of the arrangements. Some out there can even end up making it their own somehow (like Seiji Yokoyama did on at least one song they worked together on in Captain Harlock media).
That aside, I personally think that Kikuchi's work when not sabotaged or hindered somehow (in or out of the series, i.e. optical audio or mono tracks on CD) doesn't even need to be more modern because it's already a massively high quality recording in a high quality source.

Not sure about this, perhaps if there's an interview or some liner notes in the LP or the original CD release there may be, but so far it remains to be seen (and I'm not sure who out there is presently prepared to scan either).
As for liner notes though, there's a funny instance in one of them from 1997. He mentioned in Volume 1 of the Shin Tenchi Muyo OST's liner notes that he couldn't make music in any style besides his own, so basically people asking him for "modern style" tracks (Original term: 今風) was a bit of a pickle for him (although the director of that project was perfectly fine with it). Respect for him increased even more for me upon reading that (besides what I noticed in his work). He was very well aware of himself and what he could do.

Perhaps, though considering the movies are often taking story and character cues from the series proper, I like to think that the motifs Kikuchi came up with in the movies would have seen similar form in the series proper. An original Freeza theme would have sounded something like his Cooler theme, an original Buu theme would have sounded something like his Janemba theme, etc.

Looking at it like that, I like to think that Movie 4's version of the Saiyan theme that plays when Goku goes "Super Saiyan" gives us some idea of how Kikuchi might have approached that moment in the series proper.

Those were my thoughts as well, the possible material he could have made for the arcs or characters in question was basically made after they had already concluded their time in the series. It may have been similar, but would likely have been free of the constraints of being a film score.

Also, I forgot to mention generally that within this convention, the first two Z movies had instances of using the Makafushigi Adventure melody, which is something they couldn't even use in the Z series proper. And as far as Goku themes, a new one would be introduced every so often, though the one that had about the longest sticking time was the one introduced in Movie 8.

Oh and it also prevented Vegeta from getting his actual theme for quite a while, only finally getting it in Movie 7 after he'd made his theatrical debut in Movie 6 (and there were 3 variations of it in the former, Kikuchi was probably excited to finally write something for him).
Movie 8 Vegeta understandably didn't get (or deserve) a variation because of just how sunk he was.

[ABED]

I just lost all sympathy and I am starting to lose PATIENCE with the "THE FILLER DRAGS ON! LAMEZORX!!!!!!!!!" As soon as they say that, they've lost ANY CREDIBILITY with me. They never talk about how any of the SPECIFIC filler scenes kill the pacing, no, its just "LAME FILLER LAMEZORX!!!!" To their credit this one person DID mention the specific scene and how it was ruined but many dont even bother that far.

i don't think every single Filler is trash i fact i believe the Saiyan arc in Z for example actually benefited from it's Filler.

I am talking about stuff like the entire Namek Arc ,Garlic Jr. , dragged out Fights that don't really enhance the Story, Beam Struggles that last Minutes....

The fight filler isn't the issue, it's the constant cutaways to characters like Bulma and Chichi that stretch things out unbearably. Beam struggles are great. Which ones are you referring to?

[Scsigs]

The fight filler isn't the issue, it's the constant cutaways to characters like Bulma and Chichi that stretch things out unbearably. Beam struggles are great. Which ones are you referring to?

Probably why Kai's cut is often preferred to the original Z's.

[PowerPhantom245]

If there's ever going to be another attempt of live action adaptation (which will most likely won't happen for a VERY long time if not ever), casting of Goku's ethnicity shouldn't matter, especially for movie made outside of Japan, particularly America.

I NEVER understood why people were so upset with Goku's casting of Caucasian actor (Justin Chatwin) as whitewashing in Dragonball Evolution, since he's an alien (Saiyan). It really shouldn't have matter at all; that was the least problematic for that movie.

[JulieYBM]

If there's ever going to be another attempt of live action adaptation (which will most likely won't happen for a VERY long time if not ever), casting of Goku's ethnicity shouldn't matter, especially for movie made outside of Japan, particularly America.

I NEVER understood why people were so upset with Goku's casting of Caucasian actor (Justin Chatwin) as whitewashing in Dragonball Evolution, since he's an alien (Saiyan). It really shouldn't have matter at all; that was the least problematic for that movie.

Casting a white guy to play Son Gokuu is dumb as hell, and we shouldn't be treating Caucasian as some sort of default—especially for a film with an international audience.

[PowerPhantom245]

If there's ever going to be another attempt of live action adaptation (which will most likely won't happen for a VERY long time if not ever), casting of Goku's ethnicity shouldn't matter, especially for movie made outside of Japan, particularly America.

I NEVER understood why people were so upset with Goku's casting of Caucasian actor (Justin Chatwin) as whitewashing in Dragonball Evolution, since he's an alien (Saiyan). It really shouldn't have matter at all; that was the least problematic for that movie.

Casting a white guy to play Son Gokuu is dumb as hell, and we shouldn't be treating Caucasian as some sort of default—especially for a film with an international audience.

Why is casting Caucasian to play character with Asian name is considered dumb?
Goku is an alien, even that setting wasn't established until much later.
Film with an international audience shouldn't matter whatsoever.

[Jord]

I guess we then should demand that every American dub actor that plays an Asian character should be fired as well. That's animation white washing and just as bad.

[MasenkoHA]

If there's ever going to be another attempt of live action adaptation (which will most likely won't happen for a VERY long time if not ever), casting of Goku's ethnicity shouldn't matter, especially for movie made outside of Japan, particularly America.

I NEVER understood why people were so upset with Goku's casting of Caucasian actor (Justin Chatwin) as whitewashing in Dragonball Evolution, since he's an alien (Saiyan). It really shouldn't have matter at all; that was the least problematic for that movie.

Casting a white guy to play Son Gokuu is dumb as hell, and we shouldn't be treating Caucasian as some sort of default—especially for a film with an international audience.

Why is casting Caucasian to play character with Asian name is considered dumb?
Goku is an alien, even that setting wasn't established until much later.
Film with an international audience shouldn't matter whatsoever.

"Goku is an alien"

Okay let's have Clark Kent played by a black man in the next Superman movie and see what the public reaction is

I guess we then should demand that every American dub actor that plays an Asian character should be fired as well. That's animation white washing and just as bad.

Do you ever try having a take that isn't stupid? False equivalence arguments are fun, I guess. You're not making the point you think you are.

[PowerPhantom245]

Casting a white guy to play Son Gokuu is dumb as hell, and we shouldn't be treating Caucasian as some sort of default—especially for a film with an international audience.

Why is casting Caucasian to play character with Asian name is considered dumb?
Goku is an alien, even that setting wasn't established until much later.
Film with an international audience shouldn't matter whatsoever.

"Goku is an alien"

Okay let's have Clark Kent played by a black man in the next Superman movie and see what the public reaction is

IIRC, wasn't there a rumor that Michael B. Jordan was going to be Superman?
Despite Michael dismissed that rumor, it would have been interesting to see black Superman.
I guess I'm in minority for not minding Caucasian Goku.
It still baffled me that when Dragonball Evolution came out, the most common criticism was that "Goku was Caucasian", which I find it ridiculous.
It honestly doesn't matter what the ethnicity, unless the overall product is good, which Dragonball Evolution wasn't.
If live action Netflix One Piece, which was critically praised, where Luffy was portrayed by Caucasian, I'm sure it would have gotten same reaction.

I guess we then should demand that every American dub actor that plays an Asian character should be fired as well. That's animation white washing and just as bad.

[JulieYBM]

Why is casting Caucasian to play character with Asian name is considered dumb?
Goku is an alien, even that setting wasn't established until much later.
Film with an international audience shouldn't matter whatsoever.

"Goku is an alien"

Okay let's have Clark Kent played by a black man in the next Superman movie and see what the public reaction is

IIRC, wasn't there a rumor that Michael B. Jordan was going to be Superman?
Despite Michael dismissed that rumor, it would have been interesting to see black Superman.
I guess I'm in minority for not minding Caucasian Goku.
It still baffled me that when Dragonball Evolution came out, the most common criticism was that "Goku was Caucasian", which I find it ridiculous.
It honestly doesn't matter what the ethnicity, unless the overall product is good, which Dragonball Evolution wasn't.
If live action Netflix One Piece, which was critically praised, where Luffy was portrayed by Caucasian, I'm sure it would have gotten same reaction.

Iñaki Godoy is Mexican, and playing a character that was long established by Oda as being anagalous to a Brazillian person. Chatwin was a white guy playing a character that is heavily coded as east Asian, and has a name that is east Asian.

White people aren't getting a pass on this, especially when we know how fucking racist Hollywood is.

[Majin Buu]

Chatwin was a white guy playing a character that is heavily coded as east Asian, and has a name that is east Asian.

To add- In a series that was explicitly conceptualized to feel East Asian in presentation (to contrast Doctor Slump's more Western presentation).

[PowerPhantom245]

Iñaki Godoy is Mexican, and playing a character that was long established by Oda as being anagalous to a Brazillian person. Chatwin was a white guy playing a character that is heavily coded as east Asian, and has a name that is east Asian.
White people aren't getting a pass on this, especially when we know how fucking racist Hollywood is.

To add- In a series that was explicitly conceptualized to feel East Asian in presentation (to contrast Doctor Slump's more Western presentation).

Let me clarify few things, before I get wrong impression.
I will try to do my best to explain and there might be few vocabulary I might be misusing, since I'm not profession with grammar, especially for debate, so please bare with me.

I personally wouldn't mind Goku were to portray by ANY ethnicity for live action adaptation.

Would I prefer Goku to be portrayed by Asian/Japanese actor for American movie?
I would say yes, but it depends on the overall context and quality of the movie.

Would Asian Goku worked BETTER for Dragonball Evolution?
I would say not really.
I stated this in another thread, but even if they hired an award winning and popular actor at the time, even if they did get Asian actor from Los Angeles, it still would have been the same thing.
It would be like if Ghostbusters 2016-reboot movie, which was just as polarizing and criticized as Dragonball Evolution, would have been better had it been male or original cast from the movie; given how the movie turned out, it would have been the same thing, if not possibly worse.

I'm not trying to defend Dragonball Evolution because of ethnicity of Goku.
I'm not saying that movie sucked because of Justin Chatwin.
All I'm trying to say is that, Dragonball Evolution would have been same thing movie, even if they did get Asian to portray Goku.
I can guarantee that even if well known Japanese actor portrayed Goku, it still would have gotten same reception regardless, given how careless 20th Century Fox was with the franchise; especially under poor management of Tom Rothman.

Overall, it really doesn't matter who portray Goku for live action adaptation.
As long as writing and directing is good, along with how faithful to source material (which is another can of worms), it really wouldn't matter at the end.
After all, plenty of American comic books movie in recent years had ethnicity changed for live action incarnation, and some of them were well received.
I don't think why it wouldn't work for Dragon Ball.


So far, I'm enjoying with this discussion/debate.
Probably the biggest unpopular opinion topic so far.

[Jord]

Casting a white guy to play Son Gokuu is dumb as hell, and we shouldn't be treating Caucasian as some sort of default—especially for a film with an international audience.

Why is casting Caucasian to play character with Asian name is considered dumb?
Goku is an alien, even that setting wasn't established until much later.
Film with an international audience shouldn't matter whatsoever.

"Goku is an alien"

Okay let's have Clark Kent played by a black man in the next Superman movie and see what the public reaction is

I guess we then should demand that every American dub actor that plays an Asian character should be fired as well. That's animation white washing and just as bad.

Do you ever try having a take that isn't stupid? False equivalence arguments are fun, I guess. You're not making the point you think you are.

So sad that you have to result to insulting to try to make a point.

[Jord]

Casting a white guy to play Son Gokuu is dumb as hell, and we shouldn't be treating Caucasian as some sort of default—especially for a film with an international audience.

Why is casting Caucasian to play character with Asian name is considered dumb?
Goku is an alien, even that setting wasn't established until much later.
Film with an international audience shouldn't matter whatsoever.

"Goku is an alien"

Okay let's have Clark Kent played by a black man in the next Superman movie and see what the public reaction is

I guess we then should demand that every American dub actor that plays an Asian character should be fired as well. That's animation white washing and just as bad.

Do you ever try having a take that isn't stupid? False equivalence arguments are fun, I guess. You're not making the point you think you are.

So sad that you have to result to insulting to try to make a point.
In Western animation there has been a movement to cast or even recast characters to align with the voice actor's race, notably with the Simpsons and if this continues I can see it spreading towards dubbed shows as well.

[GTx10]

I had no issue that Justin C played Goku. I also had no issue with a black guy playing the role of Master Mutato. (Roshi's teacher) But for some reason Justin is hated on and yet Mutato was missed cast but nobody says a word. The film's casting was such a minor issue compared to the story/plot.

Should a live action Son Goku be portrayed by a Chinese dude? It would make sense due to the early DB setting and i would be cool with that; but it should not be a requirement. Acting skill is key. But that is my two cents.

As for unpopular opinions... hmmm... I like Jiren. His purpose is to be a literal wall for Goku to surpass and I dig it.
His design is cool and he (to me) invokes strength without being "I will rule the world." His backstory is relatable. He's got trauma and closes himself off to the world. Sound like 80% of people in the real world lol. Anyway I like Jiren.

[MasenkoHA]

But for some reason Justin is hated on and yet Mutato was missed cast but nobody says a word. The film's casting was such a minor issue compared to the story/plot.

Goku- Main character also Hollywood has a big problem with overrepresenting white male leads even in stories that don't call for it. Meanwhile Asians are very underrepresented in Hollywood movies. The Mighty White Guy being inserted in Asian stories is an annoying trend Hollywood likes to do as is

Mutaito: Minor almost insignificant character.

Hope that helps!

. Acting skill is key. But that is my two cents.

I always feel like this is a cop out. Well yeah nobody is saying "Just find an actor who looks the part, who cares if they can act."

The point is to find an East Asian actor who can act. This isn't impossible task despite what some of you may think.

[GTx10]

Master Mutato being a minor character should not factor into it. If he is white skinned in the cartoon then he should be cast as a white skinned guy (I'm not sure if Mutato is supposed to be Asian or Caucasian) in the live action version. (It should not be a requirement but a heavy consideration) While I agree that live action Son Goku should be cast as Chinese man who acts well it should not be a requirement but rather a consideration.

Hollywood has white people so it makes sense that some white people would get movie roles. If you go to Japan then Japanese folks get the role because that is what is there. Your post comes off more as "angry at the white man" and that is disturbing. Hollywood has plenty of non white actors in prominent roles.


Anyway I'm moving on from this.

Back on topic. For me Steph N. Is THE voice of English Son Goku and Son Gohan. She hits that vocal range and brings that emotion to the role. Although the voice actress who plays the roles now is fine.

[JulieYBM]

Master Mutato being a minor character should not factor into it. If he is white skinned in the cartoon then he should be cast as a white skinned guy (I'm not sure if Mutato is supposed to be Asian or Caucasian) in the live action version. (It should not be a requirement but a heavy consideration) While I agree that live action Son Goku should be cast as Chinese man who acts well it should not be a requirement but rather a consideration.

Hollywood has white people so it makes sense that some white people would get movie roles. If you go to Japan then Japanese folks get the role because that is what is there. Your post comes off more as "angry at the white man" and that is disturbing. Hollywood has plenty of non white actors in prominent roles.


Anyway I'm moving on from this.

Back on topic. For me Steph N. Is THE voice of English Son Goku and Son Gohan. She hits that vocal range and brings that emotion to the role. Although the voice actress who plays the roles now is fine.

From the Name Pun Round-up by Herms:

Mutaito
武/mu refers to the martial arts (it’s the same kanji used to write the bu in budoukai), while 泰斗/taito is an abbreviation of 泰山北斗/taizanhokuto, meaning a great authority; the phrase comes from the New Book of Tang. Therefore, “Mutaito” essentially translate to “a great authority of the martial arts”.
Toriyama Explanation: “Sorry, but I don’t remember” [DBF]