How is Seyun (Saiyan) pronounciation wrong?

[Gaffer Tape]

Well, it depends on how you define "wrong," though. Does it get across the same idea? Yeah. Is it the character's name? No. If someone decided to call me "Spear," then they'd be getting down the idea behind my name. But my name is not "Spear," it's "Lance," and I can pretty much assure you that if someone used that argument, or that language evolves, to justify calling me, "Spear," I'd be pretty pissed off because that's not my name... therefore they're wrong.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, it depends on how you define "wrong," though. Does it get across the same idea? Yeah. Is it the character's name? No. If someone decided to call me "Spear," then they'd be getting down the idea behind my name. But my name is not "Spear," it's "Lance," and I can pretty much assure you that if someone used that argument, or that language evolves, to justify calling me, "Spear," I'd be pretty pissed off because that's not my name... therefore they're wrong.

Well, in this case, "wrong" would be calling the Potara fusion of Gokuu and Vegeta "Gogeta". But "Vegerot" or even the less common "Veget" isn't "wrong" in my eyes. Might be a bit confusing for some people, but you know.

My head hurts.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Well, it depends on how you define "wrong," though. Does it get across the same idea? Yeah. Is it the character's name? No. If someone decided to call me "Spear," then they'd be getting down the idea behind my name. But my name is not "Spear," it's "Lance," and I can pretty much assure you that if someone used that argument, or that language evolves, to justify calling me, "Spear," I'd be pretty pissed off because that's not my name... therefore they're wrong.

Unless you change it legally, your own personal name will be just that until you die. Relatively few people know your particular name, or use it somewhat often. While not horrible, your analogy does have some flaws with regard to the evolution of language. Part of the argument for the dub pronunciation of "Saiyan" is that Dragon Ball Z (and the iconic Super Saiyan) has been in the pop culture sphere and known to millions of people for quite some time (through Z, through the yearly video games and through Z Kai) and thus is subject to change. Again, I'm inclined to accept it as just an alternative, but I wouldn't call some of the arguments against it invalid.

[Gaffer Tape]

But, and I don't know how many times I have to make this clear, I'm not talking about the evolution of language, or how the word fits into pop culture because neither is relevant, particularly the first, which cannot apply to a static work of fiction anyway because something that is static and finished does not evolve. All I'm interested in is how a word, which was written by a man to name a group of people that he created, is spoken in the story that he wrote. And "Seyun" is an improper translation and pronunciation in that context. It just is.

[Fox666]

The problem is that Dragon Ball is a foreign fictional work. Unlike something like the local language which change based on how people use it, that would not happen to Dragon Ball.

Dragon Ball is a japanese manga. So to find out how to pronounce a word, you need to check a japanese volume, look at what is written on it and check how it is pronounced in japanese. The end.

No matter how many people on US pronounce Saiyan in another way, or think Mr. Satan name is Hercule, or think Bardock was a scientist - it doesn't make it real because it is not in the original work.

So comes the question, is it possible that something could change the how a name pronounced? Yes. One of these is that people in Japan began to pronounce "Yasai" differently. The other way is that subsequent prints of the manga volumes in Japan are altered, however it's still possible someone may refer to the "original printing".

The US dub doesn't have the autority to change something, no matter how many people are used to it.

[OutlawTorn]

(I also care more about the pronunciations of "Han Solo" and "Goa'uld" than the pronunciation of "New Orleans." Yay priorities.)

Funny you should bring that up, because the popular way to pronounce "Han Solo" (with "Han" rhyming with "Gohan") is actually wrong, even Harrison Ford says it wrong through-out the trilogy. "Han" actually rhymes with "hand" as Billy Dee William and, more importantly, George Lucas pronounce it. (whether people like it or not, Lucas created Star Wars and if he says "Han" rhymes with "hand" then that's how it is. pretty cut and dry.) Nonetheless, this minor, yet consistent mispronunciation of Han's name doesn't get people up in arms, the pitchforks generally come out for Greedo shooting first.

With "Goa'uld" I never understood that whole secondary pronunciation as it seems to just be a shorthand of sorts, as the characters will use the proper form at times while Christopher Judge always pronounces it the proper way.

The thing I find ludicrous about the whole debate is the expectations for people to universally be able to flawlessly pronounce foreign words in the dub, because what a person who may have no problem wrapping their tongue around the words need to realize is not everybody can, even if those sounds are possible in the English language. It's like when one post included Japanese characters and talking about their pronunciation while forgetting about the romanization like it was common knowledge for everybody to know how to pronounce them. Hey, I'll admit that I can't read katakana or kanji so how would I know what one is supposed to sound like?

The US dub doesn't have the autority to change something, no matter how many people are used to it.

Correction, no dub, not just the US dub, has the authority to change anything. I mean, seriously, is "Say-an" instead of "Sigh-an" even anywhere near the scale of Piccolo being named "Big Green"? Japanese dubs change things and make edits, most commonly to replace the opening and closing for something Japanese, which sometimes requires content to be edited because Japanese opening and closings are usually around 90 seconds in length. Is this considered acceptable, even though something as minor as a slightly different pronunciation in an English adaptation is not?

For example, here's the Japanese G.I. Joe intro. But just like you'll find with American localizations, there are also straight dubs of intros, like with Animaniacs and DuckTales.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

But, and I don't know how many times I have to make this clear, I'm not talking about the evolution of language, or how the word fits into pop culture because neither is relevant, particularly the first, which cannot apply to a static work of fiction anyway because something that is static and finished does not evolve. All I'm interested in is how a word, which was written by a man to name a group of people that he created, is spoken in the story that he wrote. And "Seyun" is an improper translation and pronunciation in that context. It just is.

But Dragon Ball is far from being static. If you don't believe me, go to the front page of this site.

[SilverPlaqueVII]

But, and I don't know how many times I have to make this clear, I'm not talking about the evolution of language, or how the word fits into pop culture because neither is relevant, particularly the first, which cannot apply to a static work of fiction anyway because something that is static and finished does not evolve. All I'm interested in is how a word, which was written by a man to name a group of people that he created, is spoken in the story that he wrote. And "Seyun" is an improper translation and pronunciation in that context. It just is.

But Dragon Ball is far from being static. If you don't believe me, go to the front page of this site.

... Or a DBZ for Kinect clip saying "Become a Super Saiyan!" literally (Sa-eye-yan). The pronouncation makes sense than the saying, "Say-ye-en".

[Fox666]

But Dragon Ball is far from being static. If you don't believe me, go to the front page of this site.

No, it doesn't. That is not the true Dragon Ball, which is a manga. That's just another derivated work. No matter how much of material is released in another media, it doesn't change the original.

[Gaffer Tape]

And also in all those derivative works, the name has stayed the same (see the song "Saiyan Blood"), so it's not like any of those derivative works have changed the pronunciation. Just FUNimation.

(I also care more about the pronunciations of "Han Solo" and "Goa'uld" than the pronunciation of "New Orleans." Yay priorities.)

Funny you should bring that up, because the popular way to pronounce "Han Solo" (with "Han" rhyming with "Gohan") is actually wrong, even Harrison Ford says it wrong through-out the trilogy. "Han" actually rhymes with "hand" as Billy Dee William and, more importantly, George Lucas pronounce it. (whether people like it or not, Lucas created Star Wars and if he says "Han" rhymes with "hand" then that's how it is. pretty cut and dry.) Nonetheless, this minor, yet consistent mispronunciation of Han's name doesn't get people up in arms, the pitchforks generally come out for Greedo shooting first.

Eh, I wish I could get behind this argument, but I have a hard time considering George Lucas an authority on Star Wars anymore. Among other things, what's relevant here is that he has absolutely no idea how to pronounce the names of his own characters! Now before you say that this is just a whiny fanboy who thinks he knows better than Lucas, it's not even a "Han Solo" thing. There are enough people in the films who pronounce it both ways (as well as "Leia" in the sequels but "Leea" in the first film) that it really exists both ways. He spent the entire DVD commentary referring to a character whose actor you just mentioned as "Lando Clareesian." CLAREESIAN. Hmm. Not sure how you get that pronunciation from "Calrissian." And while it's been a while since I watched the prequels or their commentary, I'm pretty sure he pronounces Count Dooku as "Doku." And that's a character from films he actually directed, unlike films with Lando, where you could just argue that, since he wasn't there, the powers that be just screwed up his pronunciation (and spelling?). So either all the cast members he was personally directing just screwed up how you say "Dooku" without him noticing (and I wouldn't put it past him), or he just pulled a Toriyama and forgot.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

But Dragon Ball is far from being static. If you don't believe me, go to the front page of this site.

No, it doesn't. That is not the true Dragon Ball, which is a manga. That's just another derivated work. No matter how much of material is released in another media, it doesn't change the original.

Yes, but as long as you admit that the series is still being adapted (by FUNimation or otherwise), my argument is still valid. A similar thing has happened with Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Again, the question must be asked: What makes Dragon Ball so special? Is it because it's originally Japanese? Why must Dragon Ball be this unchanging, inviolable entity when it so clearly is not?


A lot of this amounts to, "FUNimation changed it. And I don't like FUNimation". It's getting tiresome. Fast.


And please don't be so ridiculously silly as to bring up canon. Please.

[Fox666]

Why must Dragon Ball be this unchanging, inviolable entity when it so clearly is not?

Because it is the way it is.

If you want so much to change the word Saiyan, why can't we change elements in the story too, if the series is not supposed to be inviolable?

[OutlawTorn]

... Or a DBZ for Kinect clip saying "Become a Super Saiyan!" literally (Sa-eye-yan). The pronouncation makes sense than the saying, "Say-ye-en".

I'm not exactly sure what you meant with the last sentence, but how would anybody get a "Say-ye-en" pronunciation from "Saiyan"? Though it does pose the question of what people think about pronunciations which are technically correct but emphasis is put in an unusual spot, such as "sigh-YAN"?

Eh, I wish I could get behind this argument, but I have a hard time considering George Lucas an authority on Star Wars anymore. Among other things, what's relevant here is that he has absolutely no idea how to pronounce the names of his own characters! Now before you say that this is just a whiny fanboy who thinks he knows better than Lucas, it's not even a "Han Solo" thing. There are enough people in the films who pronounce it both ways (as well as "Leia" in the sequels but "Leea" in the first film) that it really exists both ways. He spent the entire DVD commentary referring to a character whose actor you just mentioned as "Lando Clareesian." CLAREESIAN. Hmm. Not sure how you get that pronunciation from "Calrissian." And while it's been a while since I watched the prequels or their commentary, I'm pretty sure he pronounces Count Dooku as "Doku." And that's a character from films he actually directed, unlike films with Lando, where you could just argue that, since he wasn't there, the powers that be just screwed up his pronunciation (and spelling?). So either all the cast members he was personally directing just screwed up how you say "Dooku" without him noticing (and I wouldn't put it past him), or he just pulled a Toriyama and forgot.

I understand what you're saying but, I'm curious, does it really differ all that much from Toriyama forgetting about characters and, not just about a character's involvement in the story but a character's name? (Wasn't it Shu from the Pilaf arc which Toriyama had given a different name because he had forgotten he had already given him a name?) There are people who take anything Toriyama says regarding Dragon Ball as gospel solely because he created the series. It seems people just laugh it off as part of Toriyama's charm, so why is it a strike against Lucas but Toriyama gets a free pass?

[Rocketman]

Because Lucas raped their childhoods!

[Rukura]

I understand what you're saying but, I'm curious, does it really differ all that much from Toriyama forgetting about characters and, not just about a character's involvement in the story but a character's name? (Wasn't it Shu from the Pilaf arc which Toriyama had given a different name because he had forgotten he had already given him a name?) There are people who take anything Toriyama says regarding Dragon Ball as gospel solely because he created the series. It seems people just laugh it off as part of Toriyama's charm, so why is it a strike against Lucas but Toriyama gets a free pass?

...Because Toriyama changes names and forgets characters and Lucas gives us shitty prequels...and Jar Jar Binks?

[VegettoEX]

A lot of this amounts to, "FUNimation changed it. And I don't like FUNimation". It's getting tiresome. Fast.

Couldn't I also just say in return that a lot of it amounts to, "FUNimation changed it, and I like FUNimation, so I'm making excuses to justify that change"...? 'Cuz that's also getting tiresome.

But I wouldn't say that, because that's rude, and I enjoy the amount of discussion the entire subject has provoked .

(Also, SilverPlaqueVII's broken EVERYTHING LANGUAGE EVER probably shouldn't be taken into consideration.)

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Couldn't I also just say in return that a lot of it amounts to, "FUNimation changed it, and I like FUNimation, so I'm making excuses to justify that change"...? 'Cuz that's also getting tiresome.

I don't think that anyone defending the dub pronunciation likes FUNimation particularly, or is a "dubbie". Speaking for myself, I'm not trying to justify the change. I'm just saying that, fortunately or unfortunately, "a dude in Texas" made the change purposefully and thereby affected the way a great number of us talk about the series.

If you really want to discuss this with me, you can start by responding to my post addressed to you a few pages back.

Because it is the way it is.

I'm really trying not to sound condescending, but we're having a debate here. "It is what/how/the way it is" is essentially a meaningless phrase. If you can't provide a legitimate counter-argument, don't post a reply -- don't resort to using cop-outs.

If you want so much to change the word Saiyan, why can't we change elements in the story too, if the series is not supposed to be inviolable?

Firstly, refer to my previous posts for my opinions on the word's usage and place in English. I do not want to "change" it.

Secondly, elements in the story have been changed by people other than Akira Toriyama. They're called adaptations.

Thirdly, look up the word "inviolable".

[Gaffer Tape]

I understand what you're saying but, I'm curious, does it really differ all that much from Toriyama forgetting about characters and, not just about a character's involvement in the story but a character's name? (Wasn't it Shu from the Pilaf arc which Toriyama had given a different name because he had forgotten he had already given him a name?) There are people who take anything Toriyama says regarding Dragon Ball as gospel solely because he created the series. It seems people just laugh it off as part of Toriyama's charm, so why is it a strike against Lucas but Toriyama gets a free pass?

I'm not sure what you mean. He doesn't get a free pass. At least not from me. I've rejected his spelling of "Bulma" in favor of "Blooma" because I don't think Toriyama necessarily knows what he's doing when translating his characters' names to a foreign language. He's been said to have forgotten who Tao Pai Pai is. If, in an interview, he were to be asked about the guy who rode a pillar, and he said, "That was General Blue, right?" that wouldn't mean people should fall down and go, "Oh, my gosh! A new revelation from Toriyama-sensei! It wasn't Tao Pai Pai who rode a pillar! It was Blue!" The fact is, a lot of the times, creators don't know what the hell they're talking about, even in regards to their own work. So I honestly feel I could reverse the question on you and ask, "Why do people accept Toriyama can make mistakes, but every random thing that Lucas spits out is considered gospel?"

But as for charm versus strike, I can say that's pretty simple. For Toriyama, it IS charming. He owns up to it with a silly, "Well, yup. I don't know what I'm talking about, but it sure was fun, wasn't it?" But for Lucas, it's, "Oh. Well, I meant to do that, I always meant to do it like that, and if you don't like it, that's your problem. These are my movies." As for this specific case, it's easy to argue the correct pronunciation of "Saiya-jin" or "Saiyan" because, unlike with Star Wars, where even the creator doesn't seem to be able to keep it consistent, in Dragon Ball, Toriyama has only ever pronounced it one way. He's only ever written it one way. Even in the depths of his Dragon Ball ignorance, years after he's stepped away from it, he's never even mistakenly said it any other way. And, finally...

Because Lucas raped their childhoods!

Ugh, really, Rocketman? Really? Why don't you just throw in a weeaboo, LOLcat, and tell all the Trekkies to "get a life"?

[TonyTheTiger]

It's just that at some point pop culture wins. Ask anybody to describe the plot of Frankenstein. The image of a mad scientist surrounded by flashing Tesla coils and pulling a lever that strikes his creation with lightning is pure Hollywood. It was far less sci-fi in Mary Shelley's novel and invoked images closer to an earthy sorcery, a style similar to the origins of DC villain Solomon Grundy. But it's not like the Boris Karloff movie isn't now effectively the codified version of what people imagine Frankenstein to be.

For a more modern example, we've got Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Eastman and Laird's comics, while definitely a parody, were a rather serious stealth parody. It was the completely reimagined cartoon that created the kind of personality we generally associate with the Turtles franchise. And no matter how many times creators try to go "back to the roots" (getting a little closer each time), the effect of the 80s cartoon has, through its insane popularity, become practically inseperable from the IP as a whole so much that Eastman and Laird themselves appear rather content to let it be. Granted, the giant royalty checks probably help that but I think even if they tried to fight it tooth and nail they'd have an uphill battle.

Yes, these things are all technically "incorrect" and there's nothing wrong with pointing out that technicality but it's not as if what happened to Dragon Ball is especially unusual or even close to being the most egregious. The same thing happened to Santa Claus, who's appearance was popularized by Coca-Cola. Or the many famous lines that were never actually said by the person they're attributed to. "Elementary, my dear Watson." "Luke, I am your father." "Play it again, Sam."

It's not so much that the staunch literalism is itself offensive. It's that the blanket assertions that the deviations in the form of popular mutations are themselves an offense or some "failure" on the part of the people who adhere to them seems naive and needlessly confrontational. At this point "sigh-an" is one of these many technicalities.

[Fox666]

Because it is the way it is.

I'm really trying not to sound condescending, but we're having a debate here. "It is what/how/the way it is" is essentially a meaningless phrase. If you can't provide a legitimate counter-argument, don't post a reply -- don't resort to using cop-outs.

What else do you expect me to say? Dragon Ball is a japanese series, with a japanese pronounce. It doesn't matter how much you want the pronounce to change, or how many people want it, it won't change.

Secondly, elements in the story have been changed by people other than Akira Toriyama. They're called adaptations.

Well, you don't see people taking in account the Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings films over the books, right? Let alone something as trivial as voice acting.