Why remove the filler? (Kai)

[Dorexx]

So, why exactly did they decide to delete everything that was originally filler? Is there any official word about how and why they arrived at this decision? Why did it matter what was and wasn't filler?

They said they wanted to "stay as close as possible to the manga". But why...? Filler is already a part of DB and what the previous generation grew up with. Out of respect for the original author? Would he really care?

I just don't understand this mentality. Just why is filler automatically bad, even when it's good?

[penguintruth]

What a silly question. When it takes 19 episodes for Goku to defeat Freeza, it needs some damn editing.

[dbboxkaifan]

What a silly question. When it takes 19 episodes for Goku to defeat Freeza, it needs some damn editing.

They should have cut down the screaming when Goku turns to a Super Saiyan, because on the original manga version he goes straight SSJ ain't it?

Check Budokai 1's cutscene for an idea of how it should've been like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DRuoyNA9PE

[Dorexx]

When it takes 19 episodes for Goku to defeat Freeza, it needs some damn editing.

...

Seriously? If a scene that happens to be filler is bad and should be removed, therefore all filler is bad and should be removed?

I didn't ask why they decided to edit it. Just why in the process they concluded that all filler is to be removed.

[andrewtuell1991]

What a silly question. When it takes 19 episodes for Goku to defeat Freeza, it needs some damn editing.

Basically this. The pacing of the original Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z is absolutely atrocious and requires the patience of an absolute saint to sit through without falling asleep. Stare downs that last WAY too long, unnecessary side-stories that contribute ZILCH to the main story, fights that go on for too long (Goku vs. Freeza is NOT the only culprit), the transformation are painful to sit through cause of Toei obsession with lightning and pebbles levitating upwards (Just have Goku turn blonde already!) and even the explosions resulting from attacks are dragged out to hell and back! Who was in charge of the pacing of the old series, Rudy Larriva?

And then Kai comes along touting itself as a filler-less version of Dragon Ball Z, only to be Frankenstein of the original with the same pacing issue. The first 11 eleven episodes are a train wreck between the omission of several whole pages of manga and leaving in huge unneeded chunks of filler (Gohan over the waterfall, Gregory, 3 hour wait). Episodes 12-39 are pretty decent pacing-wise for the most part; could've use a little tightening up here their but otherwise okay. Then from Epsodes 40 and onwards the once awesome pacing comes to a screeching halt and is barely any different than Z. Apparently Toei had the mindset that so long as an episode of Kai corresponded to two episodes of Z that would make things better but they severely underestimated the amounts of ungodly filler in Z.

Off the top of my head, they left in: transformation and explosions still taking longer than necessary, the fight between Vegeta and Final Form Freeza (they barely fought at all in the manga), the Bulma-Ginyu switch, both of Goku's unconscious visions, Piccolo fighting Freeza to bide time for the Genki-Dama, Gohan coming back to fight Freeza after he knocked Goku in the ocean, Kuririn helping the sister and brother at the airport, Satan's students, Piccolo and Co. helping during the Kamehameha struggle of Gohan and Cell, and a truck load of other things.

Kai is FAR from perfect but for the most part I'd take it over Z any day. Even though the acting from the Japanese side wasn't quite up to par with their Z performance they were still awesome. Except Watanabe's Chichi was still shit. Can we PLEASE get Sho back! I know she's still alive

...
Seriously? If a scene that happens to be filler is bad and should be removed, therefore all filler is bad and should be removed?

Yes. That was the main advertisement for Kai wasn't it. But as I pointed out that was a brazen lie. Besides I can't think of a single piece of filler from Dragon Ball or any other anime series that's actually good and contributes to the plot.

[Gonstead]

Funnily enough, if Kai actually did completely remove all the filler, each episode would probably only be about 3 - 3 1/2 minutes per Manga chapter.

I made a concept video as an example. This is Chapter 331 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQorv4NJtaE

And by doing some calculations, you could practically cut the Saiyan - Cell Arcs all down to just 28 episodes.

[JulieYBM]

What, seven chapters per episode? That's way too much in too short a time, espicially with the awful directing a lot of modern Toei cartoons have. Now, the Bleach production staff could probably handle four to six an episode, but they're way to talented to work at Toei.

[Dorexx]

...
Seriously? If a scene that happens to be filler is bad and should be removed, therefore all filler is bad and should be removed?

Yes.

Well then... I really hope that wasn't their actual reason as well. That's the same logic as saying "If a vegetarian commits a crime, all vegetarians should go to jail."

Besides I can't think of a single piece of filler from Dragon Ball or any other anime series that's actually good and contributes to the plot.

While I find that pretty absurd, it really shouldn't be about anyone's preference. Filler was made to be part of the story and I can't see any justification to just automatically treat it as removable content from the start.

[JulieYBM]

So, why exactly did they decide to delete everything that was originally filler? Is there any official word about how and why they arrived at this decision? Why did it matter what was and wasn't filler?

They said they wanted to "stay as close as possible to the manga". But why...? Filler is already a part of DB and what the previous generation grew up with. Out of respect for the original author? Would he really care?

I just don't understand this mentality. Just why is filler automatically bad, even when it's good?

I agree that removing the elements original to the first two TV series' is silly, but Dragon Ball Kai wouldn't exactly have any reason to exist if it didn't try something new with the materials it was using. Of course, this all goes back to Toei not just using new animation in the first place.

[penguintruth]

I don't even understand the question. The filler is a bunch of stuff Toei just made up. Some of it is good, some of it is awful, but it is ALL just stuff that Toriyama didn't put in his original story, and pads the show painfully in many cases. Kai cuts out filler (though, yes, not all of it... I guess some things couldn't be removed or else they needed some padding to fill twenty minutes), removing what is the biggest obstacle in watching the original version of DBZ. I mean, FFS, Goku's fight with Freeza is overly long even in the manga, but 19 episodes is just unconscionable.

[DBZ Mick]

They didn't cut out literally all of the filler, there is still quite a bit there, so you aren't entirely right.

A lot of filler is just that. Filler. To fill in the time so that the anime wouldn't catch up to the manga.

They should have cut down the screaming when Goku turns to a Super Saiyan, because on the original manga version he goes straight SSJ ain't it?

I prefered the explosion of anger in the anime better than the manga.

[Bussani]

I think you're focusing too much on whether filler is fundamentally good or bad. Even if we were generous and said that fifty percent of the filler was good, it still completely changes the pacing that the author's original story had. If you ask me, the pacing is equally or more important to the overall story than the quality of the filler in question; in fact, it's one of the main reasons I prefer the manga to the anime. While Kai didn't remove all of the filler, it did make the pacing much more like that of the original story, and to me, that's a plus.

[Dorexx]

Gohan's training adventures are removed. Goku's visit to Hell and Snake Princess the same. Fake Namek the same. These are events that happen in the story. Basically, every time it was filler they tried to remove as much as possible, just because of that, and only that. "It's filler."

I don't see how pacing is even relevant here. You don't have to remove an entire story part because it has some slow pacing. Just speed it up, but let it happen. Goku still fought Freeza, but he never met Goz and Mez. Why change that?

[ABED]

Some of the filler had to be kept in for timing reasons and some is almost impossible to edit around, like perhaps Bulma and the frog. The transformations aren't all that long, and people make too much of a big deal out of it. Having Goku just turn blond without build and tension feels weak. While Gregory wasn't in the Manga, he doesn't take up that much time, plus he's probably hard to edit around whenever they cut to a scene with Kaio-sama as he's often in the background.

[DBZAOTA482]

Why just repackage the same show when you can chop it up and thrown in ugly-ass redrawn scenes? TOEI wanted to make more yen off the series as cheaply possible so they made this more "streamlined" version of Dragon Ball Z.If Fullmetal Alchemist got a freshly-made remake then why couldn't Dragon Ball?

What a silly question. When it takes 19 episodes for Goku to defeat Freeza, it needs some damn editing.

Kai is FAR from perfect but for the most part I'd take it over Z any day. Even though the acting from the Japanese side wasn't quite up to par with their Z performance they were still awesome. Except Watanabe's Chichi was still shit. Can we PLEASE get Sho back! I know she's still alive

Finally, I'm glad I'm not the only one fucking loves Meyumi Sho's Chi-Chi. She's right up there is one of my favorite seyiuus.

Watanabe's Chi-Chi isn't that bad though but she definitely pales in comparison, especially with Kai's concerned.

...
Seriously? If a scene that happens to be filler is bad and should be removed, therefore all filler is bad and should be removed?

Yes. That was the main advertisement for Kai wasn't it. But as I pointed out that was a brazen lie. Besides I can't think of a single piece of filler from Dragon Ball or any other anime series that's actually good and contributes to the plot.

I dunno, I thought the Saiyan Saga, Artificial Human/Cell Saga, and Early Boo Saga filler (hell, those were amazing) were decent for the most parts but the Late Boo Saga (minus Goku and Vegeta vs. Boohan, Base Vegetto vs. Boohan, Goku x Vegeta's misadventures in Boo's inners, SSJ2 Goku vs. Pure Boo, and episode 288), and especially Namek/Freeza Saga filler were indeed pretty bad.

[90sDBZ]

If they didn't remove filler then that would completely defeat the purpose of making Kai. It's SUPPOSED to be different.

I love original Z and it will always be my favourite but there's no point in making Kai exactly the same. The absence of filler is one of the main appeals of Kai that allows it to stand strong alone. If they didn't take out filler then it would simply be another re-dub/remastering of Z that wouldn't have been successful at all.

I personally like a lot of filler stuff like the Garlic Jr saga and the training scenes but a lot of people don't. Kai is fast-paced and to the point and depending on what mood I'm in I sometimes prefer to watch it that way. One things for certain and that is that I'm really glad I have an option to watch the show without all that boring fake namek trash. The early namek saga is slow enough without adding pointless stuff like that to it.

[JulieYBM]

Besides I can't think of a single piece of filler from Dragon Ball or any other anime series that's actually good and contributes to the plot.

All of Dragon Ball's additions and changes are fun and interesting at least up through the middle of the Namek arc. The original arcs (while never quite living up to their potential) were still well animated, acted, and scored and a treat to watch. Dragon Ball episodes #30-34 turned chapters #55-56 into a far more exciting and thrilling introduction for the Red Ribbon Army while also doing the comic of extra time to get ahead of the cartoon. The Tenka'ichi Budoukai training arcs were similarly useful in expanding upon the upcoming comic storyline while providing fun and interesting subplots of their own. Tenshinhan and Chaozu being hyped early, Gokuu going to the Makai to fight a Furukawa Toshio-voiced demon, or Tenshinhan, Chaozu, Yamcha and Kuririn saving a village from a volcano erupting are all interesting episodes on their own, but also help to prop up the series as a whole.

That's just Dragon Ball alone. To use a non-Dragon Ball example, I'm wrapping up the Zanpaku-tou Rebellion arc of Bleach right now (episodes #230-265). The arc takes one of the concepts Kubo never got around to exploring in the comic and turns it into a fun, semi-light story arc that allows the Shinigami and their Zanpaku-tou spirits to interact and fight each other. Most of the characters get a chance to shine in very well choreographed battles and have camaraderie with their swords' spirits as they free them from the villain's control and team up with them in battle. The main plot is wrapped up by episode #255 and the last ten episodes focus on wrapping up the Zanpaku-tou who are running free now that their masters are dead. The story arc has no bearing on the main arc of the comic (which at the time was the Arrancar arc, volumes #21-48), but that's pretty irrelevant to the arc simply being a well done sand-alone story that can be enjoyed by fans of the series.


So, to recap: original TV elements are good...but that doesn't have much to do with this thread, so nuts to me, I suppose.

[DBZ Mick]

A little filler is needed... pacing a comic book is different to pacing a tv series. Having Karin just give Goku the Super God Water for example would be anti-climatic.

(minus Goku and Vegeta vs. Boohan, Base Vegetto vs. Boohan, Goku x Vegeta's misadventures in Boo's inners, SSJ2 Goku vs. Pure Boo, and episode 288), and especially Namek/Freeza Saga filler were indeed pretty bad.

You didn't like those Boo arc episodes? I somewhat agree about 288 but Goku and Vegeta's misadventures was hilarious, Base Vegetto vs Boo was great. A lot of those like SSJ2 Goku vs Pure Boo were also very well animated.

Fake Namek the same. These are events that happen in the story. Basically, every time it was filler they tried to remove as much as possible, just because of that, and only that. "It's filler."

It's bad storytelling a lot of the time. Why should they visit a fake planet Namek before visiting the real one? What does it contribute the plot? I do think they should have kept a little of Gohan's survival because it's a little too fast-paced though. Some filler also clashes with canon material later on.

[DBZAOTA482]

(minus Goku and Vegeta vs. Boohan, Base Vegetto vs. Boohan, Goku x Vegeta's misadventures in Boo's inners, SSJ2 Goku vs. Pure Boo, and episode 288), and especially Namek/Freeza Saga filler were indeed pretty bad.

You didn't like those Boo arc episodes? I somewhat agree about 288 but Goku and Vegeta's misadventures was hilarious, Base Vegetto vs Boo was great. A lot of those like SSJ2 Goku vs Pure Boo were also very well animated.

No, those are the good ones. Everything else doesn't do a thing for me (except for maybe that little bit where Chi-Chi is overjoyed and embraces Goku while Goku looks dumb-founded in front of everyone because... 18 emoted ).

[Rocketman]

All filler is not bad because it is filler. 99% of it is bad simply because it is fucking terrible.