Why does Golden Oozaru become SSJ4?

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Why do you think Golden Oozaru transforms into a SSJ4?

Here's a theory I have: Gokuu trained beyond his limits with Uub and probably made his base equal or near to Kid Buu, or at least, made his SSJ1 or 2 close to Kid Buu, and transforming into a SSJ3 as a child was already pushing his body's limits of containing such high amounts of power. So when he became a Golden Ape, that was 1.25% stronger than SSJ3, plus maybe with even an adult power up due to no longer possibly being a child in Great Ape-sized body, his body was required to transform into something entirely different to contain powering up beyond SSJ1 in an Oozaru state, so SSJ4 is really SSJ2/3 Oozaru with the body mutated to be able to contain the power without exploding.

I think if Gokuu was a lot weaker, then he would've been able to become a SSJ2/3 Oozaru without having to become SSJ4 since he wouldn't have been necessarily been pushed to his natural body's limits. I think it could explain why the magic pants or the adult body comes from out of thin air or how Gokuu can become SSJ4 after the Bebi Saga in GT without having to become Oozaru again: it's just a special transformation in itself now obtained from having to contain the huge amounts of power his normal body was otherwise unable to. SSJ4 could follow the same logic as the Fusion Dance in materialising new bodies entirely.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It only happens when you channel energy into a more condensed form. It doesn't just happen. Also I wouldn't say SSJ4 is SSJ3 Oozaru but it does have the same multiplier. It's sorta funny how well the SSJ4 form fits with the ape and SSJ forms. Think about it. SSJ Oozaru is 50x the 10x base Oozaru is, SSJ3 is 8x SSJ. Guess what SSJ4 is generally accepted to be? 10x SSJ3/4,000x base. If you do the math SSJ3 Oozaru comes out to be that 4,000x base. That 10x SSJ3 is also referencing the increase of the Oozaru on top of base. It fits perfectly.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

It only happens when you channel energy into a more condensed form. It doesn't just happen.

Would you mind explaining that? I would say, it does just happen, or at least, Gokuu sub/consciously did something to make it happen so his body didn't explode from the transition from SSJ1 Ape to SSJ2/3 Ape.

Also I wouldn't say SSJ4 is SSJ3 Oozaru but it does have the same multiplier. It's sorta funny how well the SSJ4 form fits with the ape and SSJ forms. Think about it. SSJ Oozaru is 50x the 10x base Oozaru is, SSJ3 is 8x SSJ. Guess what SSJ4 is generally accepted to be? 10x SSJ3/4,000x base. If you do the math SSJ3 Oozaru comes out to be that 4,000x base. That 10x SSJ3 is also referencing the increase of the Oozaru on top of base. It fits perfectly.

I don't see why it couldn't just easily be a SSJ2 Ape, but yeah, it does seem to fit.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It only happens when you channel energy into a more condensed form. It doesn't just happen.

Would you mind explaining that? I would say, it does just happen, or at least, Gokuu sub/consciously did something to make it happen so his body didn't explode from the transition from SSJ1 Ape to SSJ2/3 Ape.

Also I wouldn't say SSJ4 is SSJ3 Oozaru but it does have the same multiplier. It's sorta funny how well the SSJ4 form fits with the ape and SSJ forms. Think about it. SSJ Oozaru is 50x the 10x base Oozaru is, SSJ3 is 8x SSJ. Guess what SSJ4 is generally accepted to be? 10x SSJ3/4,000x base. If you do the math SSJ3 Oozaru comes out to be that 4,000x base. That 10x SSJ3 is also referencing the increase of the Oozaru on top of base. It fits perfectly.

I don't see why it couldn't just easily be a SSJ2 Ape, but yeah, it does seem to fit.

It doesn't have to be SSJ3 ape but I don't see how 1,000x base would fit into GT. You have to consciously put condense your power IMO.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Would you mind explaining that?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Oozaru is a transformation that is built on primal rage. As shown with Gohan at the 25th Budokai while watching Videl get beaten, the Super Saiyan forms can be activated against the Saiyan's will if their rage is strong enough. If there was a Super Oozaru 2 or 3, Goku probably would have just transformed into it subconsciously from the begining, not just stop at Super Oozaru, rampage for a bit, and then transform into the next stage. Not having undergone the same training Vegeta did, he doesn't have that sort of control.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Would you mind explaining that?

It's just an opinion, I don't have a solid reason for thinking one needs to willingly put energy into a condensed state.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Oozaru is a transformation that is built on primal rage. As shown with Gohan at the 25th Budokai while watching Videl get beaten, the Super Saiyan forms can be activated against the Saiyan's will if their rage is strong enough. If there was a Super Oozaru 2 or 3, Goku probably would have just transformed into it subconsciously from the begining, not just stop at Super Oozaru, rampage for a bit, and then transform into the next stage. Not having undergone the same training Vegeta did, he doesn't have that sort of control.

I'm not sure what you're meaning? Couldn't just be easily said that not being in control and being inexperienced could exactly be why he only went SSJ1?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I'm not sure what you're meaning? Couldn't just be easily said that not being in control and being inexperienced could exactly be why he only went SSJ1?

Not in my opinion, because then you could make the argument that Goku shouldn't have been able to tap into the regular Super Saiyan form without having experience, but he did. For level 2 then, since it has been shown to be triggered by rage like the first form, Goku should have jumped straight to it as an Oozaru if it were actually possible. For level 3, maybe not since it has a calmer heart...

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I meant more that Gokuu Ape went SSJ right away out of randomness than experience, but I want to see if I'm understanding your point: are you saying Gokuu went straight to SSJ2 Oozaru and/ or SSJ4 has nothing to do with SSJ2/3 stages? If so, what do you think it is and why would the Golden Oozaru transform into a SSJ4? Why not just be a Golden Oozaru with Gokuu "In control"?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I meant more that Gokuu Ape went SSJ right away out of randomness than experience, but I want to see if I'm understanding your point: are you saying Gokuu went straight to SSJ2 Oozaru and/ or SSJ4 has nothing to do with SSJ2/3 stages? If so, what do you think it is and why would the Golden Oozaru transform into a SSJ4? Why not just be a Golden Oozaru with Gokuu "In control"?

I'm saying Super Saiyan 4 is something relatively unrelated to your theory and that Goku didn't go to a second super level of Ōzaru because it doesn't exist.

To start out, so long as a Saiyan has a tail and has unlocked Super Saiyan, they can achieve Super Saiyan 4, regardless of blood percentage. I don't think the Saiyans have to turn into a Super Saiyan 4 either, they can remain a Super Ōzaru while in control, it's just not very beneficial to do such a thing. For me, the first transformation can actually happen from any of the four forms; Base, Super Saiyan, Ōzaru or Super Ōzaru. The latter just requires the least amount of effort since it's easier to try and reign in the transformations when both are already active; Goku only happened to activate his Super Saiyan 4 transformation on accident while trying to gain control over his ape self.

As for Super Saiyan 4 itself, it is obviously not a linear transformation from the others and the GT Perfect Files guides even state that it is something entirely different and was only named "Super Saiyan 4" out of convenience. As for the form, well it's something pretty similar in function to the Elder Kaioshin's power-up that was preformed on Gohan...kinda, it doesn't draw out all the user's current potential or anything like that though. The short of it is that Saiyans take this form when they try to mentally master both the "human" Super Saiyan and the primal Ōzaru. A successful transformation creating a hybrid of the two forms that functions as a new Base-like state that mimics the natural prime of the Saiyan race's state of evolution; granting amazing power and having none of the drawbacks from previous forms (power drain, stress, rage, etc).

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I feel like this only supports my idea to be honest.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I feel like this only supports my idea to be honest.

If you're talking about my beliefs on the form, it has pretty much nothing to do with your theory, as it was created as part of my overall beliefs on the original franchise's Super Saiyan forms (though I know I'm in the minority on those who believe what I'm about to type).

The basic gist is that the transformation takes the Super Ōzaru (the combination of the Saiyan's ancient, original, unevolved, primal Ōzaru forms with the relatively new by comparison Super Saiyan forms) and condenses it to create the ultimate form for a Saiyan to fight in. Yes, that part is kinda similar to the latter half of your theory, but it has nothing to do with SS2 or 3 being activated because they are trying to combine them with the Ōzaru form.

That's impossible in my opinion, because to me, Super Saiyan 3 is a tailless transformation that tries to access more power and ends up taking it from their Ōzaru form (but they can't manage to access all of it). That's why the features include hair growth, the losing of the eyebrows, the bulging of the brow ridges, a multiplier just shy of the x500 you'd get combining SS with Ōzaru. It also helps to explain why the form drains so much ki--since they are basically forcing the energy to unnaturally reroute itself from a form that isn't/can't be activated, and why the transformation becomes a bit more stable for Goku once he regains his tail in GT too.

So in the end, Super Saiyan 3 kinda seems like its whole point is to say that the golden haired forms are a dead end from here on out and you need to take a different path to gain more power. Its power can't be accessed as an Ōzaru because it basically is the Super Ōzaru, or what you get in humanoid form without a tail and a moon anyway. Super Saiyan 4 is what happens when you do it right and go ape first.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I suppose that does make more sense.

To re-iterate a part of your idea, SSJ4 is basically just Golden Oozaru "in control"? If so, do you think it gets stronger from Golden Oozaru or is equal in power?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

To re-iterate a part of your idea, SSJ4 is basically just Golden Oozaru "in control"? If so, do you think it gets stronger from Golden Oozaru or is equal in power?

Well, personally I don't really care about trying to cement a multiplier for the form, or really anything relating to powers in GT due to the bloating and inconsistencies. But with the way GT presents the Bebi fight, Super Saiyan 4 definitely has to become stronger than the Super Ōzaru., because even before Bluma made him go ape, Bebi Vegeta was more powerful than Goku. So if Super Saiyan 4 wasn't stronger than the Super Ōzaru form, Goku wouldn't have stood a chance in the fight. How much stronger it makes him is definitely debatable though...

I still don't think there is an actual link between them, but you could probably use the SS2 and/or SS3 multipliers if you just wanted to make things easy. That would make make Super Saiyan 4 either x1000 or x4000 times stronger than the base form, but some people even believe it could be as high as like x40,000 stronger than base, so whatever. Personally, if I had to pick one, I'd go with the x1000. It seems more reasonable. Can just say that by creating the perfect harmony between Super Saiyan and Ōzaru in the new hybrid, base-like form allows the combination to realize a new potential in power amplification or something.