Kai remastering: What the hell happened?

[XanatosVanBadass]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, this is my first post in quite awhile. I began rewatching Kai and again can't help but notice the eminence drop in quality between the Saiyan/Freeza sagas and the Android Saga. In fact, I double checked and rewatched the first episode. The difference was night and day! Kai truly felt refreshed, but the Cell saga feels like nothing was done to it at all.

So, what happens? Did they stop caring? Were the later Z episodes in worse condition? How will the Boo saga look?

[KentalSSJ6]

DBZ Kai initially stopped at the Cell saga due to poor domestic ratings and sales in Japan. Mostly due to the fact that it was more or less just a redub and remastering compared to brand new animation on the level of the UT cutscenes are at the least, Budokai intro animation.

On the subject of the animation quality from Freeza to Cell, the fault isnt with Kai, it was the animation studios involved with those episodes.

[XanatosVanBadass]

^ I'm actually not talking about the animation quality at all. I'm talking about how the footage was remastered. There's a clear difference in how much effort was put into the Freeza Saga vs the Cell saga as far as restoration is concerned.

Sorry if my first post wasn't clear.

[kei17]

I see no difference between the three arcs except for a few episodes with 35mm film footage in the Freeza arc.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I wanna know why they didn't reanimate the series to look like the freaking opening. That was biggest problem with Kai.

[KentalSSJ6]

I wanna know why they didn't reanimate the series to look like the freaking opening. That was biggest problem with Kai.

I think they didnt have a budget big enough for THAT level of animation. As I said before, if they went with Budokai intro animation it would have been possible.

[VegettoEX]

I wanna know why they didn't reanimate the series to look like the freaking opening. That was biggest problem with Kai.

The entire point of Kai was to crap it out as cheaply as possible.

Reanimating a show doesn't allow you to do that. I don't understand why people have that kind of expectation at all from what it was and is.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I wanna know why they didn't reanimate the series to look like the freaking opening. That was biggest problem with Kai.

The entire point of Kai was to crap it out as cheaply as possible.

Reanimating a show doesn't allow you to do that. I don't understand why people have that kind of expectation at all from what it was and is.

Far be it from me to be dissapointed in watching a poorly touched up anime with tons of unnecessary cuts. If a lack of funds is truly a problem, fine, but that doesn't prevent me from wanting better animation.

[VegettoEX]

It's certainly OK to want a better product. I sure do, too.

But when you know what Kai is, I don't see how you can possibly expect Kai to be any more than what it already is.

What you actually want is a whole new product. I'm behind that!

[TheMightyOzaru]

Yes, a new product would be great.

[Blade]

I agree - the quality of the remaster dropped dramatically after the Freeza arc. Whilst the re-animated frames were always very hit and miss, and to me, mostly always stuck out like a sore thumb, the general lack in effort involved in the remastering of the original frames in the Cyborg arc is incredibly noticeable.

Take this frame for example that I just scooped from Episode 65:



There's clearly some real damage to the frame here, which they've simply not bothered to remove or re-animate. If this was just a single case or isolated blip in the overall scheme of things then maybe it wouldn't be so bad, but there are literally hundreds of instances towards the end of Kai where this is the case - and it's not like I was even remotely actively looking for them, they're that glaringly obvious.

I mean, with crap like this getting through the 'quality control' then one has to ask 'what's the point in even bothering to reanimate frames?' It's a mess, and a real shoddy piece of work.

[Metalwario64]

Even with the Dragon Boxes I noticed a couple of tiny specks for one frame every once in a while.


I don't know what you're pointing at with that shot of 18's hair. If it's those faint streaks, I'm fairly certain that's an artifact from the celluloid.

[XanatosVanBadass]

I agree - the quality of the remaster dropped dramatically after the Freeza arc. Whilst the re-animated frames were always very hit and miss, and to me, mostly always stuck out like a sore thumb, the general lack in effort involved in the remastering of the original frames in the Cyborg arc is incredibly noticeable.

Take this frame for example that I just scooped from Episode 65:



There's clearly some real damage to the frame here, which they've simply not bothered to remove or re-animate. If this was just a single case or isolated blip in the overall scheme of things then maybe it wouldn't be so bad, but there are literally hundreds of instances towards the end of Kai where this is the case - and it's not like I was even remotely actively looking for them, they're that glaringly obvious.

I mean, with crap like this getting through the 'quality control' then one has to ask 'what's the point in even bothering to reanimate frames?' It's a mess, and a real shoddy piece of work.

Thank you! There's definitely a difference in how well one half of the series was remastered versus how the other half was handled. It's not just dirt either, the color pallet just felt RICHER in the Saiyan/Freeza sagas as opposed to anything after.

[kei17]

I agree - the quality of the remaster dropped dramatically after the Freeza arc. Whilst the re-animated frames were always very hit and miss, and to me, mostly always stuck out like a sore thumb, the general lack in effort involved in the remastering of the original frames in the Cyborg arc is incredibly noticeable.

Take this frame for example that I just scooped from Episode 65:

*snip*

There's clearly some real damage to the frame here, which they've simply not bothered to remove or re-animate. If this was just a single case or isolated blip in the overall scheme of things then maybe it wouldn't be so bad, but there are literally hundreds of instances towards the end of Kai where this is the case - and it's not like I was even remotely actively looking for them, they're that glaringly obvious.

I mean, with crap like this getting through the 'quality control' then one has to ask 'what's the point in even bothering to reanimate frames?' It's a mess, and a real shoddy piece of work.

That's dirt on the original cel. You can clearly distinguish it from damages on film. The former lasts while the same cel is being shown, but latter pops up only frame by frame. They never removed dirt from cels throughout the series because that's a part of the original image.



Again, I never see any difference in the remastering quality between the three arcs.

[Metalwario64]

Yeah, I just checked that episode. Everything Blade pointing out was indeed cel dirt.

Again, I never see any difference in the remastering quality between the three arcs.

Yeah, I saw someone continually asserting that everything past Freeza looked worse (and they also cited cel artifacts as their "proof") a while back, and it seems that misconception is spreading.

All of these complaints remind me of the Blu-ray.com review of the Movie 7 DF, and that they said this shot should have been "cleaned up" when remastered, ignorant to the fact that that outline around Goku is an artifact of how it was animated (though I'm not sure what caused it).

[Blade]

Whatever the reason - it looks terrible, and they should have either re-animated the effected frames or taken measures to colour-over or remove instances of the problem. Leaving in such substandard material questions the very point of reanimating frames to begin with.

[Vegard Aune]

All of these complaints remind me of the Blu-ray.com review of the Movie 7 DF, and that they said this shot should have been "cleaned up" when remastered, ignorant to the fact that that outline around Goku is an artifact of how it was animated (though I'm not sure what caused it).

Isn't that, like, the shadow of the cel or something? Now, I don't claim to be an expert on how these things are done, but that does look like there's just a slight gap between the cel of Goku charging the Genkidama and the background, causing the former to cast a shadow on the latter. At least that's what I always assume when I see stuff like that in cel-animated shows or movies.

[kei17]

Whatever the reason - it looks terrible, and they should have either re-animated the effected frames or taken measures to colour-over or remove instances of the problem. Leaving in such substandard material questions the very point of reanimating frames to begin with.

Whether you dislike it or not, that's how Kai's remaster was done throughout the entire series and it never got worse at any points.

All of these complaints remind me of the Blu-ray.com review of the Movie 7 DF, and that they said this shot should have been "cleaned up" when remastered, ignorant to the fact that that outline around Goku is an artifact of how it was animated (though I'm not sure what caused it).

Isn't that, like, the shadow of the cel or something?

Yes, that's the case here.

[Blade]

Whatever the reason - it looks terrible, and they should have either re-animated the effected frames or taken measures to colour-over or remove instances of the problem. Leaving in such substandard material questions the very point of reanimating frames to begin with.

Whether you dislike it or not, that's how Kai's remaster was done throughout the entire series and it never got worse at any points.

I'm not saying there are no instances of it earlier on, but there are certainly many more later on than at the beginning. That's still grounds enough to criticise the quality of the practice that was carried out in the remaster - as the final product is irrefutably worse off for it.

[Vegard Aune]

Whatever the reason - it looks terrible, and they should have either re-animated the effected frames or taken measures to colour-over or remove instances of the problem. Leaving in such substandard material questions the very point of reanimating frames to begin with.

Whether you dislike it or not, that's how Kai's remaster was done throughout the entire series and it never got worse at any points.

I'm not saying there are no instances of it earlier on, but there are certainly many more later on than at the beginning. That's still grounds enough to criticise the quality of the practice that was carried out in the remaster - as the final product is irrefutably worse off for it.

Well even then it's not really that Kai's remastering got worse along the way, so much as it is just... them being less careful when handling the original cels while animating it?
It's a fair enough complaint though, especially seeing how they did seem to be going for a more "modern" look with Kai, and stuff like that does kinda break that illusion. Of course, so does the jittery image... And the slight color-differences between identically colored objects on different cels... And the fact that they actually have digitally animated shots in there every now and then which stick out like a sore thumb and indirectly call attention to the fact that the rest of the show isn't...