"Explain why DBZ is bad."

[thatdbzguy]

Since people have been asking me to explain why DBZ is bad, I'm dedicating this topic to doing just that. Basically, I'll list my main points, and give examples of them and why they negatively affect the series.

A repetitive, overly simplistic story
Ever saga in DBZ follows the same basic formula: Bad guy shows up, good guys get there ass beaten, good guys train, Goku beats bad guy (excluding Cell Games). This would not be such a problem if DBZ provided some sort of depth and complexity for each saga that helped to separate themselves more form the basic formula. But no, that's far from the case. Instead, we get barebones stories that only show off this issue more than DBZ already was.

Characters range from being one-dimensional to two-dimensional
DBZ's philosophies are very black and white, and the characters themselves almost never deviate from the traits that they're introduced with. (Ex: Goku) The fact that not a single character can be considered three-dimensional or more in the story is pitiful, and it goes to show that Toriyama hardly put any effort into making them. Even when character's do experience some kind of development, it usually feels forced and unnatural (like Piccolo's relationship with Gohan, Vegeta and Bulma having a kid, etc.)

Making everyone who isn't a Saiyan useless
This one is pretty self-explanatory. A good story knows how to properly balance the relevance of each character. DBZ does not do this.

Plot holes and inconsistencies
Vegeta saying self-inflicted wounds don't start Zenkai's despite Goku previously doing so, Freeza knowing the dragon he saw as he was heading towards Gohan and the others was Porunga despite having practically no knowledge of how the Dragon Balls worked, time travel in general producing plot holes, Cell surviving Goku's IT Kamehameha despite his entire upper body getting blown off, and God knows how many more. Does a story with countless amounts of plot holes seem like a good story to you?

Far too heavy of a reliance on characters making stupid decisions just to move the plot forward
Goku letting Vegeta go was stupid. Freeza ignoring Dende as he flew past him was stupid. Krillin never using the Kienzan + Taiyoken combo was stupid. Letting Gero create the androids was stupid. Vegeta letting Cell reach his perfect form was stupid. Goku not telling anyone about the RoSaT during the 3 year wait was stupid (although the RoSaT itself is a major deus ex machina). Goku not finishing off Fat Buu while he had the chance was stupid. Not saving time by teaching the fusion dance to Goten and Trunks in the RoSaT was stupid. A story should not have to rely so heavily on the stupidity of its characters.

Deus Ex Machinas
The RoSaT, fusion, SSJ3, and pretty much everything else in the Buu saga are major deus ex machinas. DeM's tend to kill the beleivability of stories, even ones as ridiculous as DBZ's.

Death Meaning Nothing
Thanks to the Dragon Balls, we know that anyone who dies can simply just be wished back to life, and this kills so much of the drama that you just end up not caring when someone dies.

And these are the reasons I currently remember as to why DBZ is objectively bad. Show DBZ to anyone who has studied extensively in the study of quality literature, and they will laugh right in your face.

It's fine to enjoy DBZ, but for the very few fans out there who still consider it good, please open your eyes. A story that's guilty of everything I've talked about just isn't good.

[Gutsxgoku]

You do know what forum you posted this on right?

[thatdbzguy]

You do know what forum you posted this on right?

I'm fully aware.

Most DBZ fans, however, accept that DBZ isn't really an objectively good series. This was for the people who don't, and asked me to explain.

[Gonstead]

It's fine to enjoy DBZ, but for the very few fans out there who still consider it good, please open your eyes. A story that's guilty of everything I've talked about just isn't good.

Again. In YOUR opinion. Your opinion does not reflect what everyone else should conform to.

[Kamiccolo9]

You do know what forum you posted this on right?

I'm fully aware.

Most DBZ fans, however, accept that DBZ isn't really an objectively good series. This was for the people who don't, and asked me to explain.

Who are "most" fans? Show us this place where "most" fans agree that it is a bad series. That obviously doesn't seem to be the case here, going by the reactions you keep getting.

[TheAldella]

I agree with most of this post, actually. It's good to move on from thinking this show is a ball of great plot once in a while. It allows other works to breathe and become their own thing in the mind of the viewer.

[Kamiccolo9]

I agree with most of this post, actually. It's good to move on from thinking this show is a ball of great plot once in a while. It allows other works to breathe and become their own thing in the mind of the viewer.

I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence. Could you elaborate on that?

[Weejus]

Well, at least you stated your reasons. However, while the vast majority of us here can find a fair few flaws in Dragon Ball, we still think it's good. Bear in mind DB started out as a gag manga, so expecting a masterpiece in storytelling from it like you criticise it for will guarantee disappointment.

[thatdbzguy]

You do know what forum you posted this on right?

I'm fully aware.

Most DBZ fans, however, accept that DBZ isn't really an objectively good series. This was for the people who don't, and asked me to explain.

Who are "most" fans? Show us this place where "most" fans agree that it is a bad series. That obviously doesn't seem to be the case here, going by the reactions you keep getting.

There is no specific place I can point you to (besides maybe DBZF). Most DBZ fans are pretty spread out across the internet.

I've only gotten like, 3 reactions here consisting of people disagreeing with me. I've also gotten some that agree with me.

[thatdbzguy]

Well, at least you stated your reasons. However, while the vast majority of us here can find a fair few flaws in Dragon Ball, we still think it's good. Bear in mind DB started out as a gag manga, so expecting a masterpiece in storytelling from it like you criticise it for will guarantee disappointment.

Why do you think it's good if it does practically everything that makes for a good story abysmally?

[thatdbzguy]

It's fine to enjoy DBZ, but for the very few fans out there who still consider it good, please open your eyes. A story that's guilty of everything I've talked about just isn't good.

Again. In YOUR opinion. Your opinion does not reflect what everyone else should conform to.

I don't think there's anybody out there who has the opinion that bad stories are good stories.

[Weejus]

Well, at least you stated your reasons. However, while the vast majority of us here can find a fair few flaws in Dragon Ball, we still think it's good. Bear in mind DB started out as a gag manga, so expecting a masterpiece in storytelling from it like you criticise it for will guarantee disappointment.

Why do you think it's good if it does practically everything that makes for a good story abysmally?

I enjoy it for its action, its humour, its characters and its art. Sure, the plot is levied with more deus ex machinas as the plot nears its climax and I've hated the fact that the Dragon Balls ultimately means death has no consequence but I never expected the story to be great, and I wouldn't describe it as abysmal in any regard.

[Kamiccolo9]

There is no specific place I can point you to (besides maybe DBZF). Most DBZ fans are pretty spread out across the internet.

I've only gotten like, 3 reactions here consisting of people disagreeing with me. I've also gotten some that agree with me.

I can think of (and quote, if you'd like) at least one other time you've originated this kind of discussion within the last month, and have yet to see more than one or two people agree with you that Dragon Ball is "objectively bad." Most people who have commented have disagreed with you on that point, and have only agreed with your premise that the series is flawed. However, being flawed does not make it "objectively bad."

Also, the internet fanbase of Dragon Ball is still just a minority of the fanbase as a whole. If Dragon Ball was this abyssimal mess of a work, then why has it achieved the popularity it has? Why are people still discussing today a series that has been finished, more or less, for over 15 years? If it is "objectively bad" then what point would there be in discussing it, and why does it continue to bring in new fans, year after year?

It's fine to enjoy DBZ, but for the very few fans out there who still consider it good, please open your eyes. A story that's guilty of everything I've talked about just isn't good.

Again. In YOUR opinion. Your opinion does not reflect what everyone else should conform to.

I don't think there's anybody out there who has the opinion that bad stories are good stories.

Who determines if a story is good or bad?

[Hellspawn28]

I don't view having a simplistic story not a terrible thing. A lot of good movies have a simple story like Wizard of Oz, Star Wars, most Clint Eastwood's Westerns and most Disney movies. DBZ is not high art, but I like the series having characters that I care for and it can show that anyone can become good no matter evil they are.

[90sDBZ]

Last I checked DBZ was widely considered to be the greatest anime/action cartoon of all time. Sure it has its critics but generally it's very loved by its fans. Even I can admit it's flawed but it's still my favourite show of all time and I could never call it bad.

[thatdbzguy]

There is no specific place I can point you to (besides maybe DBZF). Most DBZ fans are pretty spread out across the internet.

I've only gotten like, 3 reactions here consisting of people disagreeing with me. I've also gotten some that agree with me.

I can think of (and quote, if you'd like) at least one other time you've originated this kind of discussion within the last month, and have yet to see more than one or two people agree with you that Dragon Ball is "objectively bad." Most people who have commented have disagreed with you on that point, and have only agreed with your premise that the series is flawed. However, being flawed does not make it "objectively bad."

Also, the internet fanbase of Dragon Ball is still just a minority of the fanbase as a whole. If Dragon Ball was this abyssimal mess of a work, then why has it achieved the popularity it has? Why are people still discussing today a series that has been finished, more or less, for over 15 years? If it is "objectively bad" then what point would there be in discussing it, and why does it continue to bring in new fans, year after year?

By that logic, Justin Bieber is one of the greatest mucisians of all time because of his popularity.

And doing the opposite of what DBZ did is what makes a good story.

[thatdbzguy]

Last I checked DBZ was widely considered to be the greatest anime/action cartoon of all time.

By who? 5-year-olds?

[Gonstead]

And doing the opposite of what DBZ did is what makes a good story.

Again, in your opinion perhaps but not everyone else.

I'll freely admit that the series is flawed but to say that the entire series has no redeeming value and nobody likes it is pure nonsense.

Last I checked DBZ was widely considered to be the greatest anime/action cartoon of all time.

By who? 5-year-olds?

Oh I don't know..... most fans of the series perhaps?

[Black_Anime_Fan]

Last I checked DBZ was widely considered to be the greatest anime/action cartoon of all time.

By who? 5-year-olds?

You don't take opinions well, do you?

[Kamiccolo9]

There is no specific place I can point you to (besides maybe DBZF). Most DBZ fans are pretty spread out across the internet.

I've only gotten like, 3 reactions here consisting of people disagreeing with me. I've also gotten some that agree with me.

I can think of (and quote, if you'd like) at least one other time you've originated this kind of discussion within the last month, and have yet to see more than one or two people agree with you that Dragon Ball is "objectively bad." Most people who have commented have disagreed with you on that point, and have only agreed with your premise that the series is flawed. However, being flawed does not make it "objectively bad."

Also, the internet fanbase of Dragon Ball is still just a minority of the fanbase as a whole. If Dragon Ball was this abyssimal mess of a work, then why has it achieved the popularity it has? Why are people still discussing today a series that has been finished, more or less, for over 15 years? If it is "objectively bad" then what point would there be in discussing it, and why does it continue to bring in new fans, year after year?

By that logic, Justin Bieber is one of the greatest mucisians of all time because of his popularity.

And doing the opposite of what DBZ did is what makes a good story.

If some people consider him to be the greatest, you can disagree, but you can't say they are wrong. How does one determine who the greatest musician is?
That's not an answer. What qualities does a story have to have for it to be considered "objectively good?" You've said that DB is bad, now what is a universally good series?