How powerful would Vegito and Gogeta be in every saga?

[Angelus]

An interesting topic I found off-forums.

I excluded the Buu Arc because we already know how they will be. You can ignore GT if you want. Limit the Kaioken usage to before he became a SSJ.

Emperor Pilaf Saga
Tournament Saga
Red Ribbon Army Saga
General Blue Saga
Commander Red Saga
Fortuneteller Baba Saga
Piccolo Arc
Tien Shinhan Saga
King Piccolo Saga
Piccolo Jr. Saga

Vegeta Saga
Namek Saga
Captain Ginyu Saga
Frieza Saga

Garlic Jr. Saga
Trunks Saga
Androids Saga
Imperfect Cell Saga
Perfect Cell Saga
Cell Games Saga

Black Star Dragon Ball Saga
Baby Saga
Super 17 Saga
Shadow Dragon Saga

[KentalSSJ6]

Going off the Z arcs -

Saiyan Arc - Probably on par with second or third form Freeza

Spoiler:

Namek Arc - Id say around later first form Cell (right before absorbing 17) or second form Cell

Spoiler:

Cell Arc - Probably at the same tier as plain Super Buu or SSJ3 Gotenks

Spoiler:

[Hitiro]

I'm just going to do the Z arcs before the Garlic Jr. Saga for Vegetto and Gogeta making some pretty wild assumptions. But.

Going under the very wild assumption that the Potara fusion for Vegetto is a formula of ((person A) + (Person B)) * 200(By doing this Base Vegetto is half as strong as Boohan, if Boohan was only twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku, but 25x stronger than Boohan in SSJ form). Also assuming this form of fusion ignores things like needing matching battle powers to make the fusion in the formula.

And going under the assumption that the fusion dance is a formula of ((Person A) + (Person B)) * 8(By doing this Gotenks is around about on par with SSJ3 Goku as a SSJ).

Then we would get:

Saiyan Saga

Spoiler:

Gogeta = (8,000 + 8,000(Vegeta suppressed to match Goku.)) * 8 = 128,000
Vegetto = (8,000 + 18,000) * 200 = 5,200,000

Namek Saga

Spoiler:

Gogeta = (14,000 + 14,000(I'm placing Goku at 6,000 times stronger than his Saiyan Saga self because Vegeta had a 6,000 Zenkai in this saga. No way of knowing how much Goku recieved from the Zenkai though.)) * 8 = 224,000
Vegetto = (14,000 + 24,000) * 200 = 7,600,000

Captain Ginyu Saga

Spoiler:

Gogeta = (30,000 + 30,000(There is a disparity between the original manga and the kanzenban version about Vegeta's battle power against Recoom. But I would assume Vegeta comes out around 30,000 for him to be able to take Jheese. The Daizenshuu 7 battle power guide puts him at 30,000 as well.)) * 8 = 480,000
Vegetto = (90,000 + 30,000) * 200 = 24,000,000

Freeza Saga

Spoiler:

Gogeta = (2,000,000 + 2,000,000(Honestly didn't know where to put Vegeta for this point. I have him at 2,000,000 only because this is a bit of fun and I wouldn't even know where to begin quantifying how strong he would need to be to dodge Freeza's death beams.)) * 8 = 32,000,000
Vegetto = (3,000,000 + 2,000,000) * 200 = 1,000,000,000

[Angelus]

OMG!!! THOSE DRAWINGS LOOKS AWESOME, KentalSSJ6!!!

And LOL no one tried to estimate what a Pilaf Saga or 23rd WMAT Vegito would be

[Kaboom]

"A lot stronger than everyone else in each respective arc." Fusions are incredibly powerful, and Goku/Vegeta Fusions are a little EXTRA broken on top of that.

[Rocketman]

If they fused when they first met in the Saiyan Arc, Vegetto would easily trounce 100% Freeza and fight evenly with SS Goku.


And then one-shot him with Kaioken x2.

[Angelus]

And what about if they did at the Start of Z?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Well any hypothetical Vegetto in any arc would be about 1.5x stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Gogeta of the same arc, so Vegetto in any arc is maximum. Gogeta too until Boo saga, then he's toast.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

The fusions out class everyone in their respective arcs.

[KentalSSJ6]

The fusions out class everyone in their respective arcs.

Not entirely since Gohan > Gotenks.

[Hitiro]

The fusions out class everyone in their respective arcs.

Not entirely since Gohan > Gotenks.

I think he was just on about the fusions in question, that would be the Goku and Vegeta fusions, would out class everyone in their respective arcs. But I don't think Gogeta would be all that in Boo arc purely because he only has access to the SSJ form. Whereas Gotenks fusion form would be able to access SSJ3. Of course SSJ Gogeta would beat Pure Boo(Kid Boo). But he would not be able to beat Evil Boo(Super Boo).

[Rocketman]

Of course SSJ Gogeta would beat Pure Boo(Kid Boo). But he would not be able to beat Evil Boo(Super Boo).

Right, that's why Goku tried to get Vegeta to Dance with him inside Buu. Because he knew they'd be overpowered and lose.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Of course SSJ Gogeta would beat Pure Boo(Kid Boo). But he would not be able to beat Evil Boo(Super Boo).

Right, that's why Goku tried to get Vegeta to Dance with him inside Buu. Because he knew they'd be overpowered and lose.

They would use SSJ3.

[Kaboom]

They would use SSJ3.

I see this get said a lot, but it's a preeeetty big assumption.

Remember, as far as we've been shown and told, Gotenks had to train at least a little bit to be able to just go Super Saiyan 1 after fusing, even though the kids could already do it individually. It took even more training for him to get Super Saiyan 2 and 3 on top of that.

So it's safe to assume Gogeta would have to train for extra forms too, which he obviously wouldn't have time for in a crisis. So the only way for Gogeta to get Super Saiyan 3 right off the bat without that extra training would be for Goku and Vegeta to do the Fusion Dance while already at Super Saiyan 3. But that's impossible because...

A) Vegeta doesn't have it, and...
B) They can't fuse with Goku at SS3 and Vegeta at SS2, because in addition to equalizing your power levels to perform the Fusion Dance, you have to be of similar power levels to even be compatible for it. Somehow I doubt Goku's top power being quadruple Vegeta's would be "close enough."

So if a hypothetical Gogeta's fighting and beating anyone in the Boo arc, he'd be doing it at Super Saiyan 2 at the most. Because it's the strongest form that Goku and Vegeta have any way give him access to without extra prep time.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I see this get said a lot, but it's a preeeetty big assumption.

Remember, as far as we've been shown and told, Gotenks had to train at least a little bit to be able to just go Super Saiyan 1 after fusing, even though the kids could already do it individually. It took even more training for him to get Super Saiyan 2 and 3 on top of that.

So it's safe to assume Gogeta would have to train for extra forms too, which he obviously wouldn't have time for in a crisis. So the only way for Gogeta to get Super Saiyan 3 right off the bat without that extra training would be for Goku and Vegeta to do the Fusion Dance while already at Super Saiyan 3. But that's impossible because...

A) Vegeta doesn't have it, and...
B) They can't fuse with Goku at SS3 and Vegeta at SS2, because in addition to equalizing your power levels to perform the Fusion Dance, you have to be of similar power levels to even be compatible for it. Somehow I doubt Goku's top power being quadruple Vegeta's would be "close enough."

So if a hypothetical Gogeta's fighting and beating anyone in the Boo arc, he'd be doing it at Super Saiyan 2 at the most. Because it's the strongest form that Goku and Vegeta have any way give him access to without extra prep time.

Well nothing says fusions cant go SSJ off the bat, we don't know if Gotenks could or couldn't against Fat Boo, it's never explicitly stated they couldn't, Boo could've just one-shotted Gotenks before he even did anything. besides, Vegetto transformed right off the bat.

and the fusions have access to their fusees' techniques, like Gotenks doing a kamehameha, so they should have access to SSJ as well. I couldn't imagine that thought in Gogeta's head anyway; "Wait, how do I transform again??"

Unless you think the adults are 8x or higher than the kids, I don't think Gogeta SSJ1 should be > Super Boo. That's just me tho, for all we know SSJ1 Gogeta could curbstomp Super Boo, if the plot had demanded it Gogeta would be a beast probably, but going from an in-universe perspective, Gogeta doesn't seem that incredible (IMO).

[Hugo Boss]

Goku asked Old Kai if he should use Potara as a Super Saiyan, so this highly suggest he would at least try the dance as a Super Saiyan. Also, we have Piccolo commenting on Gotenks' ability of transforming after fusion, which seems to suggest Gotenks never did that before RoSaT. He could have tried off panel, who knows.

But we are talking about a thing that we can't say for sure and it doesn't have to follow the logic Kaboom very well exposed. If Toriyama had felt the need to portray Gogeta in SS3 he would have done so, just to troll us (kidding).

[RandomGuy96]

Right, that's why Goku tried to get Vegeta to Dance with him inside Buu. Because he knew they'd be overpowered and lose.

Gogeta has Super Saiyan 3. Goku has zero reason to assume that he can't use it. Also, literally anything is better than going outside unfused and getting tortured to death.

Also, what Goku says matters to you now? It didn't matter ten minutes ago when he said Potara was the only way to beat Super Buu (with Gohan absorbed).

Remember, as far as we've been shown and told, Gotenks had to train at least a little bit to be able to just go Super Saiyan 1 after fusing, even though the kids could already do it individually. It took even more training for him to get Super Saiyan 2 and 3 on top of that.

So it's safe to assume Gogeta would have to train for extra forms too, which he obviously wouldn't have time for in a crisis. So the only way for Gogeta to get Super Saiyan 3 right off the bat without that extra training would be for Goku and Vegeta to do the Fusion Dance while already at Super Saiyan 3.

I see this get said a lot, but it's a preeeeeetty big assumption.

Nothing indicates that Gotenks couldn't already turn Super Saiyan, and in fact it's completely in-character for him to go fight Buu in base even when he can transform. What most likely happened is base Gotenks ran towards Fat Buu with the intention of having a long fight and eventually going Super Saiyan, but he made Buu angry, so Buu just one-shotted him (see: Dabra), damaging him so much in the process that he couldn't even use Super Saiyan (see: Vegeta in the Android arc). Piccolo didn't know and just assumed out of nowhere that they couldn't transform, both because he hadn't seen them do it, and because he's kind of stupid (he's surprised when they do transform later, even though again there's no real reason to believe that a fusion would randomly forget such a simple bit of information, since fusions remember names, intentions, and techniques). That's actually supported by the text, unlike "Gotenks can't transform despite both his halves knowing how to because shut up".

Another point against this is that Super Buu outright said Gogeta wouldn't be able to beat him, even though he has no reason to believe that fusions can't use all of their forms.

That's just me tho, for all we know SSJ1 Gogeta could curbstomp Super Boo, if the plot had demanded it Gogeta would be a beast probably, but going from an in-universe perspective, Gogeta doesn't seem that incredible (IMO).

If Toriyama had Gogeta appear instead of Vegetto, I think it would have went like this:

1. Goku arrives to attempt to do the fusion dance with Gohan by appealing to Buu's cockiness (hey, it worked on Cell). Buu doesn't play ball.
2. Buu kills Gohan. He taunts Goku a bit about it, but reverts to Buuccolo mid-sentence.
3. Even though his power has dropped massively, Super Buu is still more than strong enough to kill Goku, so he offers him the chance to fuse with Mr. Satan. Goku can't, of course, so basically accepts he's going to die, only transforming to Super Saiyan 3 to make a final statement. Super Buu goes to kill him.
4. Vegeta shows up. Goku senses him and teleports away right before Buu fires the blast that would kill him.
5. Super Buu figures he teleported and races off to find him. At the same time, Goku convinces Vegeta to fuse via the dance, and they become Gogeta.

From here, everything goes the same, except with SS3 Gogeta replacing SS Vegetto.

[Hitiro]

Right, that's why Goku tried to get Vegeta to Dance with him inside Buu. Because he knew they'd be overpowered and lose.

Couldn't they go SSJ2 and fuse to match Evil Boo? Frankly, if SSJ Gotenks couldn't damage Boo without a super powerful Ki technique and then only be as strong as Evil Boo as a SSJ3. I don't see how a SSJ Gogeta could put up a good enough fight. But SSJ2 is definitely a possibility.

[Kaboom]

Gotenks' entry under Goten's section in Daizenshuu #2's "Growing Up" character guide...

SUPER SAIYAN GOTENKS
First Appears: Vol. 40+
Initially they had to transform into Super Saiyans first and then perform Fusion, but through special training they became able to transform even after fusing.
[Vol. 41 / Chp. 490] Through a few days' training, Gotenks became super powered up.
[Vol. 41 / Chp. 493] Even with the Earth in danger, Gotenks stubbornly persists in doing things at his own pace.

So the manga implies it, and the guidebooks outright say so — Gotenks, at the very least, required special training to be able to transform after Fusion, which would lead us to assume that other Fusions would be after.

Vegetto, of course, was able to do so without any extra measures just like the Old Kaioshin said Goku/Gohan would, but things may simply be different for Potara Fusions. Then again, even Gogeta transformed during or immediately after Fusion in Movie 12, too. That was "just" a movie, but hey... maybe we're simply meant to think that Goku/Vegeta Fusions are just better.

[Hitiro]

So the manga implies it, and the guidebooks outright say so — Gotenks, at the very least, required special training to be able to transform after Fusion, which would lead us to assume that other Fusions would be after.

Vegetto, of course, was able to do so without any extra measures just like the Old Kaioshin said Goku/Gohan would, but things may simply be different for Potara Fusions. Then again, even Gogeta transformed during or immediately after Fusion in Movie 12, too. That was "just" a movie, but hey... maybe we're simply meant to think that Goku/Vegeta Fusions are just better.

I would assume this special training is something like getting used to the Gotenks body and finding the trigger to unleash the SSJ form. Because their DNA has already got the SSJ gene unlocked. Which is why they could do it at such a young age. They know how their own bodies work but not this new one. So transforming into a SSJ is going to be different for him.