How Were C17 and C18 Stronger In The Present Timeline?

[Keikari86]

One thing in the series which has perplexed me since hearing of it is the revelation Trunks gave to the Zetto Senshi that Cyborgs 17 and 18 were stronger in the present timeline than his own. This doesn't make any sense. I can understand the two being "less evil" due to the fact that Goku was still around to kill, so they had something to do other than to wreak havoc upon mankind. But this? How is this the case? One may say: "Well maybe Dr. Gero discovered that Goku and company were warned about the artificial humans so he made 17 and 18 stronger to combat them." Well that can't be, because when the Zetto Senshi confronted Gero and #19, Gero was surprised that Piccolo knew he and 19 were artificial humans. He also couldn't have upgraded them before Piccolo, Tenshinhan and Kuririn arrived at his lab, because there wasn't enough time. Does anyone have an explanation to offer?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku's death obviously changed Dr. Gero's plans, since the attack happened by him & #19 instead of #17 & #18. Apparently, these change of plans included changing #17's & #18's personalities, and making them stronger.

[Keikari86]

Goku's death obviously changed Dr. Gero's plans, since the attack happened by him & #19 instead of #17 & #18. Apparently, these change of plans included changing #17's & #18's personalities, and making them stronger.

Didn't Gero say while fighting Piccolo that Piccolo was stronger than he calculated? If that's the case, he must have been unaware of the three years of training the Zetto Senshi underwent, therefore giving him no reason to upgrade C17 and C18. He of course was also unaware of Goku's Super Saiyan abilities so it's not like he need to upgrade C17 and C18 for his level he was able to reach with the transformation. Gero seemed very confident in his calculations, so he didn't seem like the kind of guy who would do such a thing. Also, C17 and C18 didn't change personalities between timelines. Goku being alive merely changed their goal.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Didn't Gero say while fighting Piccolo that Piccolo was stronger than he calculated? If that's the case, he must have been unaware of the three years of training the Zetto Senshi underwent, therefore giving him no reason to upgrade C17 and C18. He of course was also unaware of Goku's Super Saiyan abilities so it's not like he need to upgrade C17 and C18 for his level he was able to reach with the transformation. Gero seemed very confident in his calculations, so he didn't seem like the kind of guy who would do such a thing. Also, C17 and C18 didn't change personalities between timelines. Goku being alive merely changed their goal.

I'm not saying he made them stronger because he expected the Z-Senshi to be stronger. He just made them stronger because he could.

[Keikari86]

Didn't Gero say while fighting Piccolo that Piccolo was stronger than he calculated? If that's the case, he must have been unaware of the three years of training the Zetto Senshi underwent, therefore giving him no reason to upgrade C17 and C18. He of course was also unaware of Goku's Super Saiyan abilities so it's not like he need to upgrade C17 and C18 for his level he was able to reach with the transformation. Gero seemed very confident in his calculations, so he didn't seem like the kind of guy who would do such a thing. Also, C17 and C18 didn't change personalities between timelines. Goku being alive merely changed their goal.

I'm not saying he made them stronger because he expected the Z-Senshi to be stronger. He just made them stronger because he could.

It seems to me he would be more concerned with weakening them in case they acted out, getting them to be more obedient or both,

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It seems to me he would be more concerned with weakening them in case they acted out, getting them to be more obedient or both,

Which is why I guess he changed their personalities: they were weaker & more cruel originally (and in Trunks' timeline), but then he made them stronger & less evil in hopes that he would make them both better and more controllable.

[Keikari86]

It seems to me he would be more concerned with weakening them in case they acted out, getting them to be more obedient or both,

Which is why I guess he changed their personalities: they were weaker & more cruel originally (and in Trunks' timeline), but then he made them stronger & less evil in hopes that he would make them both better and more controllable.

Well, I guess that works. I don't why Toriyama even bothered having Trunks mention that. It's not like Goku ended up fighting them and had difficulty combating them, whereas in the future timeline he would have done just fine. Maybe he had Trunks mention that because he planned on Goku confronting him, and then when he came up with Cell he scrapped the idea.

[ZazamPow]

Dragon Ball Multiverse gave a very fair reason. There's no such thing as infinite energy - the cyborgs were losing more and more power with every second that passed, and sooner or later they wouldn't even be able to stand. The present timeline Cyborgs were fresher, meaning they had more power while the future Cyborgs lost a lot.

[Jackal puFF]

Dragon Ball Multiverse gave a very fair reason. There's no such thing as infinite energy - the cyborgs were losing more and more power with every second that passed, and sooner or later they wouldn't even be able to stand. The present timeline Cyborgs were fresher, meaning they had more power while the future Cyborgs lost a lot.

This one makes some sense. Their power had to have gotten drained somehow with all their fights with Gohan too over the years. They don't know how to repair themselves surely.

[Hitiro]

It's possible that in Trunks' timeline the cyborgs were de-powered to make them more controllable. Perhaps he thought their power output was what was causing the disobedience which is why he opted for the power absorption system for himself and #19. However, in the present timeline Dr. Gero had yet to make those modifications because as we know he turned himself into a android. In the future timeline the time he spent converting himself into one and making #19 was probably the time he used to modify #17 and #18 further before sending them out to kill Goku.

[Keikari86]

Dragon Ball Multiverse gave a very fair reason. There's no such thing as infinite energy - the cyborgs were losing more and more power with every second that passed, and sooner or later they wouldn't even be able to stand. The present timeline Cyborgs were fresher, meaning they had more power while the future Cyborgs lost a lot.

This one makes some sense. Their power had to have gotten drained somehow with all their fights with Gohan too over the years. They don't know how to repair themselves surely.

Agreed.

[FindKenshi]

I never liked the Multiverse fan theory.. why not simply say that C17 and C18 took it easy on Trunks in the future, because by that time they were sadists and enjoyed toying with their prey. #18 even asks if she can just flat out kill him this time, and #17 says "we'll have one less toy to play with." And since Trunks can't sense the power of the cyborgs, it makes perfect sense--he gauges their power on how hard they fight. And the ones in his own time never fought him all-out. The ones in the present fought all-out because it was a big battle royale of them vs all the Z-senshi, so of course they wouldn't pull their punches. Trunks was wrong. It's a much better fan theory than claiming their infinite energy isn't infinite, and they were breaking down.

[TheBritWriter]

Dragon Ball Multiverse gave a very fair reason. There's no such thing as infinite energy - the cyborgs were losing more and more power with every second that passed, and sooner or later they wouldn't even be able to stand. The present timeline Cyborgs were fresher, meaning they had more power while the future Cyborgs lost a lot.

It's a terrible theory, all theories MUST work alongside the facts given, and not rewrite character material. The big deal about the androids/cybrogs etc is they had unlimited energy, and was the key reason vegeta lost to 18, as he couldn't keep up with the high tempo of the fight, if the androids had finite energy then 18 would had been weaker after the fight with vegeta and 17 would had fallen to piccolo or cell would had commented 17 had lost a lot of power. Neither 17 or 18 have access to sensu beans and no means of recouping spent energy.

If we are to talk about Goku's death having an impact, then that might be valid given Goku's death happened at a different time. (He died close to sunset on The history of Trunks) compared to the series where he looked close to dying on midday, but more so that Goku lived upto when the androids attacked the city, in the Trunks special he never lived to see that day. The change was by six months. A long time for gero to make any changes.

It is possible in the alternative timeline 17 and 18 were scaled down now that Goku was out of the way, or another possibility is that Trunks statement is not entirely accurate, or misinterpreted, while Trunks has said they were stronger then the ones in his timeline, he could also be saying that he didn't think they could be THAT strong, as he hadn't faced them at 100%

It's also a change in circumstances that 'deny' the androids taking a more evil path like their future counterparts, mainly in the future they picked their foes one by one, in the series they were attacked almost all at once, with 17 arrogantly proclaiming they were all of no threats. Learning Goku is still around they set their sights on him but I think it is less to do with scaling down power levels and more of the circumstances that came up.

[Saiga]

I don't like DBM's explanation since there's simply no reason to retcon the infinite energy - it's perfectly at home in Dragon Ball's fantasy world, and it would make multiple characters look completely stupid.

There are two that I like - the idea that they were simply holding back in the Future, or that Gero modified them further. The first I find quite plausible, and may have been what Toriyama was trying to imply in Trunks the Story with Android 17 telling Gohan he'd been using less than half his power the entire time. This contradicts Daizenshuu 7, though, so either I'm reading too much into it or it was too subtle for the creators of the guidebooks to pick up. If you're not one to stick to the guidebooks entirely, I think this is quite simply and works just fine.

The second I also find plausible, as the reason for Gero's lack of control over them was that he made them too strong. It's mentioned that 18 was made less powerful than 17 so that she'd be easier to control, but was still too strong. So this idea goes off the assumption that Gero would have activated the Androids later in the original timeline, and had an opportunity to work on them further, resulting in 17/18 being weaker and giving him more control over the personality - which he used to make them more evil, but still hadn't done enough to bring them to a level where he could reliably control them so he still got offed.

[Kaboom]

Well, there's no harm in fan-theories. If all we're told is "the future androids are somehow weaker than the past ones" without any explanation, then it's totally our prerogative to come up with ideas to fill in the blanks. As long as we don't start acting like those theories are facts.

That said, I also kind of like the idea that something may have caused the future Androids' max power to gradually decrease over time. Remember that their energy is really only labeled as "infinite" in that they'll never lose power or stamina from battle, not that nothing can decrease it. Toriyama's even told us now that they can get stronger through training, so it's not far-fetched to think that some other outside effect could cause them to weaken over time as well.

Of course, it may simply be that Gero just set their power to something less for some reason or another. We may never know.

[TheBritWriter]

Well, there's no harm in fan-theories. If all we're told is "the future androids are somehow weaker than the past ones" without any explanation, then it's totally our prerogative to come up with ideas to fill in the blanks. As long as we don't start acting like those theories are facts.

That said, I also kind of like the idea that something may have caused the future Androids' max power to gradually decrease over time. Remember that their energy is really only labeled as "infinite" in that they'll never lose power or stamina from battle, not that nothing can decrease it. Toriyama's even told us now that they can get stronger through training, so it's not far-fetched to think that some other outside effect could cause them to weaken over time as well.

Of course, it may simply be that Gero just set their power to something less for some reason or another. We may never know.

When we try to consider the impact of 'outside effects' then were entering our own assumptions and not necessary the facts (ie: How Trunks killing freeza and cold may or may not have delayed goku being susceptible to the heart virus etc) It's another thing entirely, to ignore/recton a defining statement of 17 and 18, and contradicts why they don't have absorbers on their hands if their power wasn't infinite. If their energy is declining then it's at a extremely slow rate, when they die in the future would be well into the GT saga but upto then the standard SSJ did nothing, and it took a near mastered form of it to give the deciding factor. I don't mind fan theories myself so long as they work with the established content.

I do think the key difference in why 17 and 18 are seemingly more powerful is because they were confronted straight away which changed their approach and objectives, it's also Trunk's first account of seeing the androids getting serious with a fight, in the past (or should that be future? ) he thought he beat them till they sniggered and trolled him. He certinely didn't push them like future gohan did so he is an unreliable character in some ways. Looking at how he said the androids seem to be more powerful is almost as if reality has set in how far behind he is in beating them. hich is just a theory in itself.

[rereboy]

DBM didn't rewrite anything. The androids still have a reactor that provides them with infinite energy in DBM. What DBM says is that their reactor and its parts, despite giving them infinite energy, will eventually start to wear down without proper maintenance, losing efficiency over time, until it stops working.

Nowhere in the original manga is it said that the androids and their parts will last forever without any decay and without maintenance, so nothing was rewritten.

Even if we believe that the androids were or seemed stronger for other reasons than this in the manga, that doesn't mean that we can't believe that the androids and their parts would eventually break down due to the natural decay of their parts, even if it took a very long time for that to happen, since there's nothing in the manga telling us otherwise.

[TheBritWriter]

DBM didn't rewrite anything. The androids still have a reactor that provides them with infinite energy in DBM. What DBM says is that their reactor and its parts, despite giving them infinite energy, will eventually start to wear down without proper maintenance, losing efficiency over time, until it stops working.

Nowhere in the original manga is it said that the androids and their parts will last forever without any decay and without maintenance, so nothing was rewritten.

Even if we believe that the androids were or seemed stronger for other reasons than this in the manga, that doesn't mean that we can't believe that the androids and their parts would eventually break down due to the natural decay of their parts, even if it took a very long time for that to happen, since there's nothing in the manga telling us otherwise.

it is rewriting, the androids have infinite energy, at no point does the magna or the anime imply that their parts are wearing down or are going to. Nor does it make sense; the androids have been active for about 20 years, that's a big gap to go without maintenance, and most of that time they have had no real threats, so how can that cause parts to wear out? When during the minor points of their reign the Z fighters were blink in the eye and future Gohan was a nuisance, who they later killed at half power.

If wear and tear was an issue, future Gohan of all people would pick on that observation and use that to his advantage. The only technical aspect that's brought up is they have limitless energy and have a self destruct bomb, each of them for a plot point, Trunks searching for a kill switch reinforces the argument that the androids weren't losing power anytime soon, and if they were then it was hardly noticeable.

On the subject of DBM's fan comic, it starts four years after the androids were last seen in the future timeline, between those four years the androids had the power to kill imperfect cell, but after that they started to decline and wear down in power? It isn't a theory, it's a tailor made recton to their weaknesses for the comic's convenience. I could support a 'wear down' theory if it had valid backing, but DBM's makes no sense and does rewrite a defining aspect for the android that hasn't been mentioned again for 698 pages.

[rereboy]

What doesn't make sense is to assume that the androids would be working for billions or trillions of years until the universe ends because their parts/reactor would have no decay at all and would always function perfectly and flawlessly when nothing of the sort is stated in the manga.

Unless you are ready to assume this, even though nothing like that is suggested in the manga and even though it doesn't make much sense, then you have to assume that there is some limit of time where their parts would eventually start to degrade.

There's only those two possibilities... Either they are completely immune to decay and degradation, and will work flawlessly until the end of the universe, or its just a matter of time until it starts to decay, even if it takes a long time.

As for the infinite classification of their energy, as its clear in the manga, them having infinite energy only means that they reactor never runs out of "fuel", like a car with an tank of gas that never runs out. The infinite classification only refers to that. It doesn't refer to them having, for example, infinite power since we see fighters with a lot more power than them, it just means that they won't get tired and run out of "fuel". And nowhere in this classification is it implied that the reactor itself is immune to decay and malfunction and that it will function flawlessly until the end of the universe, just like its not implied that the amount of power/strength that it gives to the androids is unlimited.

You are getting too caught up in the word "infinite" when its clear from the manga that that classification only refers to the androids' ability to have never-ending "fuel". They only have a machine that can produce energy without ever needing "fuel". That's what's infinite about it. It doesn't mean that that machine can't degrade and break down in time.

[TheBritWriter]

What doesn't make sense is to assume that the androids would be working for billions or trillions of years until the universe ends because their parts/reactor would have no decay at all and would always function perfectly and flawlessly when nothing of the sort is stated in the manga.

Unless you are ready to assume this, even though nothing like that is suggested in the manga and even though it doesn't make much sense, then you have to assume that there is some limit of time where their parts would eventually start to degrade.

There's only those two possibilities... Either they are completely immune to decay and degradation, and will work flawlessly until the end of the universe, or its just a matter of time until it starts to decay, even if it takes a long time.

As for the infinite classification of their energy, as its clear in the manga, them having infinite energy only means that they reactor never runs out of "fuel", like a car with an tank of gas that never runs out. The infinite classification only refers to that. It doesn't refer to them having, for example, infinite power since we see fighters with a lot more power than them, it just means that they won't get tired and run out of "fuel". And nowhere in this classification is it implied that the reactor itself is immune to decay and malfunction and that it will function flawlessly until the end of the universe, just like its not implied that the amount of power/strength that it gives to the androids is unlimited.

You are getting too caught up in the word "infinite" when its clear from the manga that that classification only refers to the androids' ability to have never-ending "fuel". They only have a machine that can produce energy without ever needing "fuel". That's what's infinite about it. It doesn't mean that that machine can't degrade and break down in time.

Not really I can acknowledge they will wear down via ageing or be gone by other stronger fighters (eg Beerus) but that they haven't worn down during the events of their terror and during Trunks' lifetime, or till Cell absorbs them at least.

We simply don't know how long they can live for, but Rhoshi is doing well for someone who is over 300 years old, so why should it seem far fetched for other characters to be long lived and still be constantly strong? Even the saiyans themselves are anti-aging by nature. How long was Cell intended to live for?

Characters who don't decay to time are surprisingly common in the dbz universe. I'm not saying the androids will be around for billions of years, it's simply impossible given you have beings like imperfect cell, dabura or Beerus, so they would had died at some point if Trunks hadn't killed them. 18 isn't around at the time of goku jr in GT or DBO so natural death is likely.

What I take issue with is DBM's interpretation of how quick they will decay. There is no hard evidence to verify it was already happening in Trunks' future timeline, and why should it? They were destined to be absorbed by Cell, if they were to become weaker over time before Cell could absorb them then what was their point in their creation? I can buy the idea they would slowly age over time and die but not the argument they became weaker over time because of mechanical faults, not within trunks' lifetime at least. The theory treats Android 17 and 18 as if they had cogs and gears inside of them.