Transformation Guide - Nearly Complete, Kinda?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:46 pm

Dayspring wrote:Why does everybody say it's anime flashback only? In both the anime AND manga we see him in this form while transforming to Kid Boo. He even stops for a second to pant, then suddenly experiences pain and THEN continues transforming, so it's not like you say it was one fluent transformation. Kaioshin even says that it was the form he took after assimilating the South Kaioshin.

From what I understand from the images posted up + the anime...

Yes, he's shown in a similar form, in the middle of a "transformation," but you don't see the actual event taking place (being the attacking and absorbing) in the manga. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Dayspring wrote:As for the whole name of post-potara Kaioshin, the daizenshuu has a pic of him right after they fuse as part of the East Kaioshin's bio (with a subtitle of "master Kaioshin" under it). My guess is because they were both part of the Kaioshin race, and one of the two just called himself "Kaioshin".

Makes sense to me. I guess it would be better to note that other names for the character are fan-given (and FUNimation-given) names, and that he's not given a "new" official name in Japanese.

Dayspring wrote:In the fusion section under Gogeta, note that the daizenshuu calls fat Gogeta "Veku" for some reason. Just thought you'd like to know in case you want to change it.

That's noted in the actual text talking about him. Should probably note that in the name title, as well, I guess (since you were able to overlook it).

Dayspring wrote:Quick note involving Fat Boo: after he creates skinny, he lost most of his strength to him. From then on he was called "Mr Boo." Maybe you'd like to make this an extension of Fat Boo like 100% Final Form was an extension of Final Form Freeza.

Tis true.

Dayspring wrote:Contrary to what Julian said Rou Kaioshin pre-fusion WAS in the manga, albeit(sp?) only for one panel when he's in total freak out mode (so he only looks like badly drawn East Kaioshin).

Anyone wanna give me a pic?

Dayspring wrote:In the manga (Trunks: The Story) Trunks is training in SSJ before the destruction of Peppertown. I think the anime was different just to add drama.

Right.

Dayspring wrote:Note: I can't open the Saiyan section for some reason. I get a "file not found" msg.

It's working for me. Maybe you've got a bad URL cached.. ?

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:25 pm

Just to make me look like a twit, now when I click on the link in either the thread or from via the transformations page, both work.

There are actually two stages within the "USSJ" stage, really just varying levels of the same exact thing.

Bless you! Oh bless you, suh! Fo' thee lowngehst tyme I taught I wahs thee onlee wan hoo taught soh! I figured I misunderstood what Trunks was saying and/or that the French manga translated it badly. Well done here.

Sûpâ Saiya-jin no ichi-dankai (the normal Super Saiyan, or SSJ1)
Sûpâ Saiya-jin no ni-dankai (USSJ 1; the second stage of SSJ1)
Sûpâ Saiya-jin no san-dankai (USSJ 2; the third stage of SSJ1)

Hunh. My version of the Daizenshuu translated it as:
Sûpâ Saiya-jin
Sûpâ Saiya-jin Dai 2 dankai
Sûpâ Saiya-jin Dai 3 dankai
Although I know that ichi, ni and san are 1,2 and 3, is there a reason why you use the wording (as opposed to numerals), along with "no" in front of it instead of "Dai"? (I'm asking in terms of grammar as I don't speek Japanese)

It can be very difficult to tell the difference between "USSJ1" and USSJ2" (and quite frankly, even we can't tell all the time). Here's a close-up comparison of Goku's head and hair in both stages:

GAH!! Use the manga chapter for the pics! Way easier to see differences, as hair + muscle (and even height) change considerably. That's what I was going to use for my site once I get a new scanner.

Vegeta only reaches the first level of USSJ (USSJ1); while training with Trunks in the Room of Spirit and Time, he seems to be completely unaware that Trunks is able to surpass him (as seen by Trunks hiding this stage until Vegeta is unconscious). How he was able to MISS it during the training will remain a mystery forever!

Actually Trunks thinks Vegeta DID reach USSJ2 (once Cell points out the flaws of it to him). Trunks never actually used it in the room of spirit and time; he just knew he could take USSJ to another level in himself. What he figures happened with Vegeta is that he either 1) knew the flaws when he reached USSJ1 (and so never bothered to try to reach USSJ2) or 2) came to the same conclusion as Trunks (could bring to a second level) and just didn't use it against Cell since it's so full of flaws.

USSJ Broly question: Does anybody else think he could go USSJ2 (also blending the benefits of of the USSJ stages into regular SSJ)? Remember when he stopped suddenly (in Legendary/USSJ1) and said he could feel his ki increasing? Then he gets engulfed in aura and sends tons of ki blasts everywhere? I find once we're able to see him after the ki burst, that his muscles are a bit more engulfed for the rest of the movie than prior to the ki burst. Compare after the burst to the pic in EX's transformation guide.

From what I understand from the images posted up + the anime...

Yes, he's shown in a similar form, in the middle of a "transformation," but you don't see the actual event taking place (being the attacking and absorbing) in the manga. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I won't argue the flashback scene, but in mid-transformation (from Majin to Kid) he stops and pants for a frame in this form (his whole body shown), then suddenly feels pain in the next and continues transforming. Goku (or Vegeta, I forget) says "Hey! He's starting to transform 'again'!", and Kaioshin explains to Rou Kaioshin that this is how he looked after he absorbed South Kaioshin. Since all this happens, I STRONGLY feel that it should be considered present in the manga. I never knew for the longest time about the flashback since I hadn't seen most of the anime, but just from reading the manga I knew this was a form of Boo.

That's noted in the actual text talking about him. Should probably note that in the name title, as well, I guess (since you were able to overlook it).

Whoops! I guess I missed it since the title didn't follow the same scheme as Gotenks did (Gotenks mentioned Fat+Skinny as one, Regular+SSJ as another and SSJ3 as a third whereas Gogeta was all one category).

Anyone wanna give me a pic?

Someone want to help him out here? I have no scanner right now and if I did the manga's text would be in french instead of Japanese.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:59 am

I finally finished perusing the rest of the guide sections EX and I have to say you and Julian have really put an amazing amount great work into it.

I found just a couple more typos.

In the Super Saiyan section, under Broly-

Unlike Gohan's SSJ2 hair(mostly standing up straight into the air, with a stand, perhaps, falling down),....

The "r" was left out of "strand".

In the section on Golden Ozaru, you call Bebi's new home Planet Planet. Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't it supposed to be Planet Plant? I always thought it was, so that's also why I'm asking, in case I've been wrong all these years.

In the Fusion section, under Piccolo+Nail+Kami, 2nd paragraph-

Kami-sama however, chooses to wait a little more, and watched over the jinzoningens, noting that they are supposed to be slightly different than the ones from Trunks' future.

The word "watched" needs to be changed to "watches", to correspond with the other verbs in that sentence that are in the present tense.

Under Kaioshin+Kibito, 2nd paragraph-

Their clothing is a combination of what they two were previously wear.....

The "y" in the word "they" should be taken off to read as "the two previously wear".

Under Vegetto, 2nd paragraph-

Goku sense Vegeta's Ki and rushes off.

Forgot to put "s" at the end of "sense".

That's all I can find for typos in the whole thing. Really well-written! Lastly, I just had two questions. When you talk about the Fusion Dance and you mention them having to wait 60 minutes before attempting it again, do you mean they have to wait 30 minutes for the fusion to wear off and then 30 more minutes before they can do it again? I just want to make sure I understand it properly. I'm probably just tired right now.

My second question is, for the sections in yellow you have at the end of all the categories listing manga appearances and series appearances, are you going to also list where they appear in the movies? I was just thinking it might be a good idea, especially for forms that we don't get to see much of like Gohan as a SSJ2, which he becomes in Movie #9. Also, along the line of the movies, are you going to make any mention of the alternate version of SSJ that Goku tranforms into in Movie #4? I know they only made the form that way because they didn't want to give away the true appearance to people who hadn't yet seen that part of the T.V. series, but I think it would be an interesting sidenote. Who knows, you could maybe even theorize that it's perhaps a preceding stage right before actual SSJ and that Kaio-sama incorrectly assumed it as SSJ. Just a thought anyway.

Post by **TripleRach** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:22 am

Dayspring wrote:I won't argue the flashback scene, but in mid-transformation (from Majin to Kid) he stops and pants for a frame in this form (his whole body shown), then suddenly feels pain in the next and continues transforming. Goku (or Vegeta, I forget) says "Hey! He's starting to transform 'again'!", and Kaioshin explains to Rou Kaioshin that this is how he looked after he absorbed South Kaioshin.

Err, that line sounds like a translation error. It's mada (still), not mata (again). "Still transforming", not "transforming again".

Dayspring wrote:Someone want to help him out here? I have no scanner right now and if I did the manga's text would be in french instead of Japanese.

Here's something I scanned. My scanner is pretty grainy and crappy, and does that to black and white pages even when scanning in grayscale. I could go back and try editing it some and cleaning it up, but I figured EX would rather do it himself how he wants it.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:31 am

Rach: Since your here, I wanted to ask you, do you have the manga for the Mirai Trunks side-story? It's just that I told EX I'm pretty sure in the manga version when Trunks finds Gohan's dead body, he doesn't transform right then, but takes a few more years of training to finally attain SSJ. I heard and read on a few occasions and I was wondering if I'm correct. Thanks.

Post by **TripleRach** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:17 am

Actually, before Gohan died, Trunks and Gohan were practicing together, and Trunks was already SSJ during their training.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:40 am

Oh okay, I wasn't sure exactly what was true or not from all different things I've heard about in that chapter, the main thing consistent discrepancy I remember was that he didn't change at the same point as the anime version.

EX: So it is a different point in the manga version then, just not where I thought!

Thanks Rach!

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:39 am

Err, that line sounds like a translation error. It's mada (still), not mata (again). "Still transforming", not "transforming again".

Oh. My bad. But everything else I said still applies so I stand by my statement. Wherelse would Toei get the inspiration for an IDENTICAL transformation? In the anime the stopped period is longer, but it's STILL there so why ignore it since we don't see him fight in this form in the manga? It would be like ignoring Freeza's 3rd form if he went from 2nd to 4th. Freeza transforms into 3rd form, but doesn't fight. Freeza transforms into 4th form. Since form 3 doesn't fight, it doesn't exist, even if someone said they saw him fight in the past. ARGH!

Post by **VegettoEX** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:48 am

Dayspring wrote:Hunh. My version of the Daizenshuu translated it as:
Sûpâ Saiya-jin
Sûpâ Saiya-jin Dai 2 dankai
Sûpâ Saiya-jin Dai 3 dankai
Although I know that ichi, ni and san are 1,2 and 3, is there a reason why you use the wording (as opposed to numerals), along with "no" in front of it instead of "Dai"? (I'm asking in terms of grammar as I don't speek Japanese)

You'll have to wait for Julian to respond to this one. I took the words / grammar from him.

Dayspring wrote: GAH!! Use the manga chapter for the pics! Way easier to see differences, as hair + muscle (and even height) change considerably. That's what I was going to use for my site once I get a new scanner.

Don't have the manga ^^;;. Shonen Jump should be up to that very soon, though, so that'll be good... be able to do anime and manga examples.

Dayspring wrote:Actually Trunks thinks Vegeta DID reach USSJ2 (once Cell points out the flaws of it to him). Trunks never actually used it in the room of spirit and time; he just knew he could take USSJ to another level in himself. What he figures happened with Vegeta is that he either 1) knew the flaws when he reached USSJ1 (and so never bothered to try to reach USSJ2) or 2) came to the same conclusion as Trunks (could bring to a second level) and just didn't use it against Cell since it's so full of flaws.

Where is this all said?

Dayspring wrote:USSJ Broly question: Does anybody else think he could go USSJ2 (also blending the benefits of of the USSJ stages into regular SSJ)? Remember when he stopped suddenly (in Legendary/USSJ1) and said he could feel his ki increasing? Then he gets engulfed in aura and sends tons of ki blasts everywhere? I find once we're able to see him after the ki burst, that his muscles are a bit more engulfed for the rest of the movie than prior to the ki burst. Compare after the burst to the pic in EX's transformation guide.

That's why I note that his stage of USSJ seems to be his own, special "OMG I'M BROLI" stage.

Dayspring wrote:I won't argue the flashback scene, but in mid-transformation (from Majin to Kid) he stops and pants for a frame in this form (his whole body shown), then suddenly feels pain in the next and continues transforming. Goku (or Vegeta, I forget) says "Hey! He's starting to transform 'again'!", and Kaioshin explains to Rou Kaioshin that this is how he looked after he absorbed South Kaioshin. Since all this happens, I STRONGLY feel that it should be considered present in the manga. I never knew for the longest time about the flashback since I hadn't seen most of the anime, but just from reading the manga I knew this was a form of Boo.

I think Rach cleared that up, already. Yeah, I always read / heard it as that they're not referring to that bulky stage... they're referring to the fact that he's changing from something big to something small, not even paying attention to the bulky "stage." In fact, I've always seen it as a nothing stage until reminded about the anime flashback. I've noted a bit more about this in the text for that stage. Lemme know if it makes sense / needs anything else.

That said, I've made some notes about "Mr. Buu" in the regular "Majin Buu (Fat)" section, saying to read more about him below.

Other changes / fixes to make:

SSJ - Broli: "r" left out of "strand"
SSJ - Golden Oozaru: "Planet Planet" --> "Planet Plant" typo
Fusion - Piccolo/Kami: "watched" --> "watches"
Kaioshin + Kibito: 2nd paragraph, "s" at end of "sense" ki
SSJ - SSJ1/Trunks: Note difference between Trunks for anime / manga

Everything else before in this thread has, I believe, been more or less corrected / updated / fixed... I hope! Keep letting me know.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:41 pm

Kami-sama however, chooses to wait a little more, and watched over the jinzoningens, noting that they are supposed to be slightly different than the ones from Trunks' future.

I'm not too keen on the word "suppossed" there. It implies that they had advanced warning, such as Trunks saying "The Jinzoningens are going to be different than the ones I know" when he's warning them. They only find out that they are different after seeing them, so they are reacting to the change, rather than being forwarned. Er, if that makes sense.

Anyway, I'd just drop the "suppossed to be" thing. The jinzoningens are different from the ones from Trunks' future (at this point). There's no "suppossed", they simply are different.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:10 am

Where is this all said?

RIGHT after Cell shows the flaws in USSJ2 to Trunks. Trunks says something along the lines of (I'm at school so I can't check the exact words just now) "That's probably why dad never attained the same level as me. He probably understood that it would be useless". Same chapter as Goku going USSJ2 I think, so it should be soon in SJump as well. The rest is speculation since what he says doesn't point out to the reader if Vegeta COULD and just didn't go USSJ2, or if Vegeta never bothered to try to reach USSJ2 since he knew it would be flawed. Trunks knowing he could attain USSJ2 and never doing it in the room of spirit in time is semi-speculation because he tells Krillin he could reach USSJ2, but like you said somehow Vegeta never noticed.

Concerning South Kaioshin Boo: Rou Kaioshin (if memory serves right) says, after the flashback of South Kaioshin's face+explanation, something like "so that hulk we just saw was what he looked like after he absorbed the S Kaioshin?" Kaioshin answers yes. THIS is what made me feel this was a form of Boo, and only half a year ago did I see the anime flashback (in the ugly ugly dub. Last time YTV had an "animenia!!!" special)

That's why I note that his stage of USSJ seems to be his own, special "OMG I'M BROLI" stage.

Gah. I just re-read what I said there. So confusing: sorry! I meant your site mentioned this special USSJ, but was asking if anybody felt he also had a special USSJ2 as well. "OMG2 I'M BROLI!"

That said, I've made some notes about "Mr. Buu" in the regular "Majin Buu (Fat)" section, saying to read more about him below

I'm on my way to see if you messed up now! Er, give constructive feedback. Yeah. That's what I meant.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:19 am

I'm on my way to see if you messed up now! Er, give constructive feedback. Yeah. That's what I meant.

And you did! GAHAHA!!

Technically Mr Boo was "made" after Fat Boo created Skinny. He was just left inside Majin(Super) when Goku+co got out of his body, so Fat was stuck inside Chibi after the final transformation. "Mr" Boo, like you said, is now pure good, but also MUCH weaker than when he was "Fat", as Skinny Boo took most of Fat's strength away from him when formed (here you just said skinny was stronger than fat, but not why).

Now go, my elite website slave, and fix your errors! Do my bidding! Get my dry cleaning! Huzzah!

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:27 pm

What do you say about Dayspring EX? I say we BAN this little arrogant cuss before the power goes anymore to his head! Laserkid! Get your "BIG BAN ATTACK" ready!

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:36 pm

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!! I was the inspiration behind the "Big Ban Attack!" so naturally I know hot to counter it.

EDIT: That's right. I made a typo. I said "hot" instead of "how". And I'm NOT gonna fix it.

However, as there is no way to overcome the mighty Ban Mallet that EX lugs around, I will surrender. For now... FUUFUUHAHA.

PS: I FINALLY GOT MY HANDS ON A COPY OF THE BATTLE ROYALE NOVEL!!! WOOHOO!!!

W.P Fresh · Post by **W.P Fresh** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:23 pm

Wow, those guides are really in-depth.

Post by **SaiyaJedi** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:42 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Hunh. My version of the Daizenshuu translated it as:
Sûpâ Saiya-jin
Sûpâ Saiya-jin Dai 2 dankai
Sûpâ Saiya-jin Dai 3 dankai
Although I know that ichi, ni and san are 1,2 and 3, is there a reason why you use the wording (as opposed to numerals), along with "no" in front of it instead of "Dai"? (I'm asking in terms of grammar as I don't speek Japanese)
You'll have to wait for Julian to respond to this one. I took the words / grammar from him.

Heh... actually, I wasn't aware that the daizenshuu had assigned names to those levels, so I took the "dankai" stuff that some people were babbling about (since it means "stage" or "level"), and ran with it. I guess the daizenshuu and I were on the same plane...

But anyways, the "no" in this case (since it designates a specific term) is largely superfluous (although as a phrase on its own, it's more-or-less necessary). So... uhh... yeah.

Post by **SaiyaJedi** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:43 pm

W.P Fresh wrote:Wow, those guides are really in-depth.

Thank you.

...And by the way, no images in your signature, please.

Consider yourself warned.

W.P Fresh · Post by **W.P Fresh** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:53 pm

SaiyaJedi wrote:
W.P Fresh wrote:Wow, those guides are really in-depth.
Thank you.

...And by the way, no images in your signature, please.

Consider yourself warned.

Yes sir. Edited.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:37 pm

Jerseymilk wrote: Also, along the line of the movies, are you going to make any mention of the alternate version of SSJ that Goku tranforms into in Movie #4? I know they only made the form that way because they didn't want to give away the true appearance to people who hadn't yet seen that part of the T.V. series, but I think it would be an interesting sidenote. Who knows, you could maybe even theorize that it's perhaps a preceding stage right before actual SSJ and that Kaio-sama incorrectly assumed it as SSJ. Just a thought anyway.

I think this should be included too, since it's also seen in the History of Trunks and Great Saiyaman saga (When he beats the Ginyu force).

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:39 pm

Planning on it. Still debating whether to throw it in "Movie Transformations" or the "Saiyan" one... probably the latter.

God dammit, this means I have to watch movie 4 again... for only the third time, ever...

Kanzenshuu

Transformation Guide - Nearly Complete, Kinda?

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