Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the end?

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm not seeing how Vegeta training Trunks constitutes as abuse.

[voltlunok]

I'm not seeing how Vegeta training Trunks constitutes as abuse.

I think they're referring to the brutal face punch he gave Kid Trunks but that was entirely out of reflex from Vegeta. He actually wasn't prepared for Trunks to hit him I guess. Plus I mean he kept his word to take Trunks to the park if he succeeded in striking Vegeta's face.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm not seeing how Vegeta training Trunks constitutes as abuse.

I think they're referring to the brutal face punch he gave Kid Trunks but that was entirely out of reflex from Vegeta. He actually wasn't prepared for Trunks to hit him I guess. Plus I mean he kept his word to take Trunks to the park if he succeeded in striking Vegeta's face.

I mean, in a real fight, someone is not going to hold back against you just because you expect them to. It was a lesson, and Trunks learned. It's just like a martial arts master telling their student to watch their eyes, and then striking them without looking at where they were going to strike, and then saying "also, never believe your opponent." I'm sure I stole that example from somewhere, but I cannot for the life of me remember where....

Regardless, the fact that Vegeta is Trunks' father does not make that abuse.

[voltlunok]

I'm not seeing how Vegeta training Trunks constitutes as abuse.

I think they're referring to the brutal face punch he gave Kid Trunks but that was entirely out of reflex from Vegeta. He actually wasn't prepared for Trunks to hit him I guess. Plus I mean he kept his word to take Trunks to the park if he succeeded in striking Vegeta's face.

I mean, in a real fight, someone is not going to hold back against you just because you expect them to. It was a lesson, and Trunks learned. It's just like a martial arts master telling their student to watch their eyes, and then striking them without looking at where they were going to strike, and then saying "also, never believe your opponent." I'm sure I stole that example from somewhere, but I cannot for the life of me remember where....

Regardless, the fact that Vegeta is Trunks' father does not make that abuse.

Oh I know. I wasn't saying they were right. It was training, they both knew it. No harm was done and I laugh when people try to state that was abuse on Vegeta's part! Like he said, he never stated he wouldn't hit trunks back. Trunks just assumed he wouldn't hit back.

[RandomGuy96]

He never said he wouldn't hit him.

Which is why I said "basically". The wording he used gave a clear implication, and it seems fairly obvious he didn't intend on hitting him until Trunks proved he wasn't a complete weakling. Vegeta's like Cell in that regard. He'll be good humored and offer you a chance, but what he really wants is to show off how awesome he is. He turns into a poor sport if his opponents actually prove stronger than he thought.

He definitely didn't want to kill his wife, given that he gave his life to protect her.

If he cared that much about his wife, he probably would've spent the extra one second to make sure the blast didn't go anywhere near her. But apparently one second is too much for Vegeta.

Yeah, Vegeta came with the plan to save the universe. Maybe he had thought that Kaioshin wouldn't have enough ki, maybe he hadn't. He was confident to his plan, and he chose that plan because he believed that the Earthlings should take responsibility for once (even though Boo was his & Goku's responsibility, but that's another story). There was nothing evil in that.

Uh, yes, there is. Demanding other people take responsibility for your misdeeds, then gambling their lives without their consent, is not a nice thing to do.

Yes, he has already done so twice. In the manga, he could tell who were good guys & who were really bad guys. In BoG, he could answer a question that no one in the entire universe knew.

And that proves he's omniscient, how?

The manga example doesn't even really count, he was just making a subjective judgement according to the specifications of the wish.

No one asked him "when will you die?" for him to know. Like I said, he would answer anything you ask him with his power to grant wishes, meaning that he magically gains knowledge on spot.

What? So Shenron can't bring people back to life unless you first tell him that he can? Provide proof of this, because that's an arbitrary and asinine way for his powers to work.

BoG was written almost entirely by Toriyama. He basically wrote the entire script.

Not really. The whole concept of the movie came from someone else, as did countless other vital bits. There were tons of people involved in the creative process, it's not like a Toriyama-written manga.

If Vegeta still felt happy about killing all these people in the past, Porunga wouldn't have brought him back to life.

Why? How do you know exactly how Poruna judges a vague wish like "bring back everyone except the really, REALLY bad people (i.e. Babidi)"?

No, it was silly since the beginning. You are saying that Vegeta is beating his son, wants to kill his wife, lies to himself about loving them, is so evil that he devices difficult plans so that these plans would fail and get the universe destroyed, and him killed, and anything that proves you wrong, like Porunga & Super Saiyan God, is stupid because they are stupid...

Because he does? He kicks his son in the face for trying to save the world, he punches him the gut for telling Vegeta he was being stupid, he punches him in the face pretty much just to be a dick, he nearly blows up his wife twice while giving zero shits, and he repeatedly shows that his "love" for his family, if it really exists, is hollow and meaningless next to his obsession with stroking his own ego. I never said he devised the plan intentionally to destroy the universe, I was just pointing out that since his plan was basically "let's gamble everyone's lives for the lulz", it does not count as a good deed. Porunga doesn't prove me wrong. Super Saiyan God is stupid regardless of what you think of this particular issue, and it's by no means an ironclad method of figuring out how good someone is, because we have no way to judge how it determines what a righteous saiyan is (the standards are presumably really fucking low, and Vegeta hadn't been much of a mass murdering psychopathic at that time). It is also repeatedly questioned in-universe (Roshi says Goku shouldn't qualify, Buu says Vegeta shouldn't), introducing more reasonable doubt to how much the statement is supposed to mean.

[ABED]

To an extent, it is. Society as a whole creates standards of morality through enforcing what it considers acceptable behavior. Of course, the moral standards of individual people can vary widely, but on average they are still heavily shaped by the values of their shared culture. An American or European today will generally have morals vastly different from the average citizen of the Roman Empire, who thought it was perfectly alright to watch people get mauled by lions in the Colosseum, or the Aztecs, who believed human sacrifice was a-okay.

It's also not necessarily a matter of going along with the pack, but choosing to believe what the pack says is correct, because it's the only thing you have ever known.

I'm well aware that different cultures have different ethical codes, but that doesn't make them all right. Aztecs thought it was okay to sacrifice people, but I would hope we can agree that it's a barbaric practice or are you promoting moral relativism? If you choose to believe whatever the pack says is okay (Vegeta is a prince, mind you), then you aren't substituting pack mentality for moral responsibility.

Seriously? That was training. If you are afraid of getting hit...

That wasn't training. He didn't hit his son in the face because he was in the heat of battle, he punched him because he was embarrassed that he got hit.

The point, though, was if Goku is supposed to be judging and punishing Vegeta like he's Superman or something, then he might as well be judging the rest of the cast, too.Their misgivings aren't as bad as Vegeta (unless you count Piccolo Daimaou's crimes as Piccolo Jr's crimes as well), but I can't see someone who is going to kill Vegeta for the sake of justice as the kind of guy who just lives with people like Mutenroshi, Krillin, and Lunch or befriends people like Yamcha, Bulma, and Ten.

Judging isn't wrong, judging irrationally is wrong. Lunch is completely different. Her good half can't be held accountable for her violent half. Mutenroshi is a lech, but it's so over the top you can't take it serious, plus I don't see how that means he should cut him out of his life. Kuririn's faults were minor, plus he was 13! What did Bulma do? Unlike Vegeta, Tenshinhan was truly repentant and actively sought to do good in the world. Vegeta had no such goals, until perhaps the very end of the story, but by then his misdeeds were so big, he couldn't begin to repay his karmic debt within his lifetime. Piccolo's a weird case, he's the reincarnation of pure evil, and technically a demon until sometime between the 23rd Tournament and the Saiyan arc, so it's hard to judge properly.

In any case, the cast of Dragonball is full of people who Goku helped turn around because that's the Super Shonen guy that he is. Their crimes get more serious as the power, the stakes, and the power gets larger, but Goku still keeps the ability to see the good in people that nobody else would be able to turn around. Without that, Dragonball loses its magic and just becomes the "hope of the universe" Superman speech tenfold.

There is so little good in Vegeta. He's a bastard all the way through. Have you read Superman? He might have made those speeches in the golden age, I don't know, but that's not who he is now.

[Attitudefan]

I do think it says something about us and our society. People like bad guys or guys who do bad things.

[goku the krump dancer]

Because breaking or bending the rules while being likable and not getting in trouble for it is always or almost always cool. It's like an escape from reality I guess.

[DBZAOTA482]

What did Bulma do?

Wanted the dragon balls for the perfect boyfriend (or strawberries), tried to kill a young Goku for wrecking her Jeep, subsequently tries to rob him of his grandfather's momento (and lies to him in order to get it), tries to flirt with then bandit Yamcha, is on his case for every single flaw in their relationship when they get together (accusing him of being a "playboy" just cuz other women like him), leaves Goku for dead in a collapsing cave... the list goes on.

Anyways, It's pretty clear Vegeta hit Trunks mostly out of reflex (the SFX, experiences, and all). And you're making it sound like he still goes around putting Goku's friends down, and making death threats towards them when he's quite clearly fundamentally changed from that.

Not that really matters though because he still likely going to hell when he dies.

[Attitudefan]

What did Bulma do?

Wanted the dragon balls for the perfect boyfriend (or strawberries), tried to kill a young Goku for wrecking her Jeep, subsequently tries to rob him of his grandfather's momento (and lies to him in order to get it), tries to flirt with then bandit Yamcha, is on his case for every single flaw in their relationship when they get together (accusing him of being a "playboy" just cuz other women like him), leaves Goku for dead in a collapsing cave... the list goes on.

Anyways, It's pretty clear Vegeta hit Trunks mostly out of reflex (the SFX, experiences, and all). And you're making it sound like he still goes around putting Goku's friends down, and making death threats towards them when he's quite clearly fundamentally changed from that.

Not that really matters though because he still likely going to hell when he dies.

Put that way, Bulma is perfect for Vegeta. She's a total bitch haha!

[superfunk]

If he cared that much about his wife, he probably would've spent the extra one second to make sure the blast didn't go anywhere near her. But apparently one second is too much for Vegeta.

He knew she was alive when he was fighting Goku(when Goku mentions that buu would probably kill her if he is freed) and when he told trunks to take good care of his mother. We couldn't prove it either way but that suggests he knew who he did and didn't kill and knew his blast wouldn't kill the people positioned where Bulma was.

[Jackal puFF]

It would be way harder to forgive Vegeta if he didn't do any good deeds.. But he did do good deeds. A lot of them that surely erased some bad deeds. I'm sure people like Goku and Krillin think like that.

[Saiga]

And there's also the fact that, while on Namek, that argument actually does apply. The heroes work with Vegeta because they have no choice, and he is an asset to their cause, at least for the moment. So, yeah, that's a realistic scenario. After that, though... well, not only is he an arrogant, mass-murdering bastard, but he's an arrogant, mass-murdering bastard who is actively working against the goals of the rest of the heroes and making their bad situations worse. So, no, it's really difficult to understand why they're not only working with him but are friends with him. Morality aside, it's just not often a very logical or beneficial arrangement.

That's completely wrong though. During the Android arc, he still does more for the group than against them.

So, first up he shoots down Bulma's idea. That's certainly bad. Yet, Goku, Kuririn and Tenshinhan are all against Bulma's idea as well (though Kuririn thought it was a good idea). So he's not working against the team, he's part of the majority consensus there.

Next he saves Goku, then kills #19. Helpful in two ways. Let #20 go because he couldn't beat him, smart move. Pursues #20, in the interests of the whole group.

Fights Android 18, against Trunks' wishes who wants to wait for Goku. Not a liability here, and nobody else is really going along with Trunks either (as seen when Piccolo opts to fuse with God rather than listen to Trunks and wait for Goku to heal). Doesn't achieve anything either, unless entertaining #18 had some positive effect.

Agrees to train with Trunks, both get stronger as a result. Working for the team's interests. This training also makes Trunks strong enough to save his own future.

Out to destroy Cell, in the team's interests.

Finally actually acts against the team's interests, to let Semi-Cell absorb 18. This is obviously really bad. It makes Vegeta just as guilty and selfish as Mr "thinking with my dick" Kuririn, who is actively doing just as much to act against the goals of the group as Vegeta is. It takes the two of them fucking up together to actually provide a set back for the heroes, they're in the same negligent boat.

He doesn't really contribute much during the first part of the Cell Games except for holding off a Cell Jnr. But if he wasn't there, that Cell Jnr. wouldn't have been created. No impact either way.

Then he fucks up by attacking Super Perfect Cell. This makes things worse for the heroes, but it's harder to say he deserves punishment for this as he's motivated by his feelings towards his murdered son. He also regrets getting Gohan injured because of his recklessness.

Then he distracts Cell, saving the universe. At the very least making up for getting Gohan injured.

So his worst moments weren't mistakes made by him alone. I'd say he was still more of a benefit than a hindrance, especially since I believe they would've fought the Androids anyway without Vegeta's input because Goku didn't like the plan at all.

In the Boo arc, he starts off being a lot more amiable than usual and is helping them fight Babidi's minions. Turning Majin is a huge hindrance, A+ liability right there, but from that point on basically everyone fucks up just as hard as him, so that by the end there's hardly anyone who can say "this is your fault, Vegeta" without being a hypocrite. Of all the fuck ups in the arc, Vegeta at least breaks even. Sure, he's only helping clean up the mess he partially created, but that's true for Goku as well. Other characters simply don't make up for their mistakes in the arc.

Kuririn's line in Battle of Gods is right on the money. Has absolutely nothing to do with how pure of heart he is, but it's easy to see why he's kept around - the other characters tend to screw up just as much as he does.

[Gaffer Tape]

You left out the part where the others have to race to Dr. Gero's lab before Vegeta gets there because he wants #17 and #18 to be activated, and they don't.

Anyway, I don't know where it is I ever said Vegeta's goals and their goals *never* line up. But like you said in regards to the Cell Jrs., a lot of times when that is the case, things would have turned out the same whether he'd been there or not. But when he does decide to go against them, things get exponentially worse. Considering my argument was whether or not his presence is a liability, I feel that still definitely holds water.

Also, yes, behaving stupidly is not a character trait exclusive to Vegeta. But again, I said "actively" working against them. Most everyone else's boo-boos are due to simple stupidity, misguided compassion, or Toriyama's fly-by-the-seat-of-his-pants writing making them retroactively look stupid. Vegeta's are made in spite of knowing full well what the consequences could be and just not giving a shit, which I feel is worse. They're certainly not blameless, and in threads where we're talking about them, maybe I would have mentioned it. But this is about Vegeta.

[ABED]

Agrees to train with Trunks, both get stronger as a result. Working for the team's interests. This training also makes Trunks strong enough to save his own future.

He doesn't train with Trunks. He trains in the same room at the same time.

Saiga, for everything you listed, there's a number of counterpoints that can be made. Vegeta did distract Cell in order for Gohan to kill him, but he also let Cell reach his perfect form.

What did Bulma do?

<br abp="884">Wanted the dragon balls for the perfect boyfriend (or strawberries), tried to kill a young Goku for wrecking her Jeep, subsequently tries to rob him of his grandfather's momento (and lies to him in order to get it), tries to flirt with then bandit Yamcha, is on his case for every single flaw in their relationship when they get together (accusing him of being a "playboy" just cuz other women like him), leaves Goku for dead in a collapsing cave... the list goes on.

She was a teenage girl, so let's cut her some slack. And she wasn't leaving Goku out of spite or malice. Goku had yet to arrive and the cave was going to collapse in any second, yet you're holding it against her because she wanted to leave when every second counted? Everything you mentioned is hardly what I would call a fatal flaw. And she doesn't shoot Goku for wrecking her car, Goku tossed it, she was in fear for her life because Goku thought the car was a monster or something. Most of these are trivialities, and easily gotten past.

Once again someone is blowing a protagonist's flaws completely out of proportion, while also disregarding an antagonists flaws.

[DBZAOTA482]

What did Bulma do?

<br abp="884">Wanted the dragon balls for the perfect boyfriend (or strawberries), tried to kill a young Goku for wrecking her Jeep, subsequently tries to rob him of his grandfather's momento (and lies to him in order to get it), tries to flirt with then bandit Yamcha, is on his case for every single flaw in their relationship when they get together (accusing him of being a "playboy" just cuz other women like him), leaves Goku for dead in a collapsing cave... the list goes on.

She was a teenage girl, so let's cut her some slack. And she wasn't leaving Goku out of spite or malice. Goku had yet to arrive and the cave was going to collapse in any second, yet you're holding it against her because she wanted to leave when every second counted? Everything you mentioned is hardly what I would call a fatal flaw. And she doesn't shoot Goku for wrecking her car, Goku tossed it, she was in fear for her life because Goku thought the car was a monster or something. Most of these are trivialities, and easily gotten past.

Once again someone is blowing a protagonist's flaws completely out of proportion, while also disregarding an antagonists flaws.

I ain't cutting her slack for shit, considering she continued much of those things in adulthood (at least till the Cell Saga). I never said anything close about her leaving Goku behind out of spite but rather out of selfishness (she was the only one agreed to leave him). She even outright shouts she's more important than anything else. And her shooting Goku may not have been as trivial as Goku wrecking her Jeep but she was clearly more pissed than scared. She didn't even try to reason with him so you can't say it was out of self-defense and she had no business being here in the first place.

Not saying she's/she was a terrible person but acting like her mortality is beyond judgement is just ridiculous. Otherwise, she wouldn't fuck Vegeta.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What? So Shenron can't bring people back to life unless you first tell him that he can? Provide proof of this, because that's an arbitrary and asinine way for his powers to work.

What are you talking about?

Not really. The whole concept of the movie came from someone else, as did countless other vital bits. There were tons of people involved in the creative process, it's not like a Toriyama-written manga.

The script is still written by Toriyama, and anything not by Toriyama is approved by him. Either way, the things that Toriyama didn't do for the movie (animation, fighting choreographies, etc) are irrelevant to this topic.

He kicks his son in the face for trying to save the world, he punches him the gut for telling Vegeta he was being stupid, he punches him in the face pretty much just to be a dick

The first two were in Cell arc, weren't they? Because I'm not arguing about that part of the story. And he didn't punch Trunks just to be a dick, do you have any idea about martial arts?

he nearly blows up his wife twice while giving zero shits

I really doubt he had anything else in his mind other than "fight Goku!", especially when he had just fallen under Babidi's spell. You think he would blow his wife up if he was told "stop Bulma is there!"? He would just blow up the people on the other direction.

he repeatedly shows that his "love" for his family, if it really exists, is hollow and meaningless next to his obsession with stroking his own ego.

This is what an obsession is, it's like a decease, but it doesn't make you an evil person.

I never said he devised the plan intentionally to destroy the universe, I was just pointing out that since his plan was basically "let's gamble everyone's lives for the lulz", it does not count as a good deed.

It's not "for the lulz", it's for a very good reason in his opinion. He may be wrong, but that doesn't make him evil, he believes he is doing the right thing.

Porunga doesn't prove me wrong.

Why?

Super Saiyan God is stupid regardless of what you think of this particular issue, and it's by no means an ironclad method of figuring out how good someone is, because we have no way to judge how it determines what a righteous saiyan is (the standards are presumably really fucking low, and Vegeta hadn't been much of a mass murdering psychopathic at that time).

For the last 4 years, Vegeta hadn't killed anyone, didn't want to kill anyone, had apparently regretted for his past sins (or else Porunga wouldn't have brought him back), and he protected the Earth when he had to, and even placed the Earth above his pride. That

It is also repeatedly questioned in-universe (Roshi says Goku shouldn't qualify, Buu says Vegeta shouldn't), introducing more reasonable doubt to how much the statement is supposed to mean.

Of course it would have been questioned in-universe, the guy was a mass-murderer, and since Vegeta doesn't show his feelings other than his mean side, they know him mostly for being an asshole.

That wasn't training. He didn't hit his son in the face because he was in the heat of battle, he punched him because he was embarrassed that he got hit.

You clearly don't know what training is then.

[ABED]

I ain't cutting her slack for shit, considering she continued much of those things in adulthood (at least till the Cell Saga).

Even if you don't, you are making it like what she did was ever on the level as what Vegeta did. Most of that is juvenile crap.

t rather out of selfishness (she was the only one agreed to leave him). She even outright shouts she's more important than anything else.

It is selfish to care about your own well being, and there's nothing wrong with that. The cave was collapsing all around her. And her life should be her number one priority.

She didn't even try to reason with him so you can't say it was out of self-defense and she had no business being here in the first place.

He had a weapon and chucked her car, she had every right to protect herself. She was going on an adventure to find the DBs, I don't see what's wrong with that.

Not saying she's/she was a terrible person but acting like her mortality is beyond judgement is just ridiculous. Otherwise, she wouldn't fuck Vegeta.

First off, you seem to imply that judgment is automatically negative. To judge simply means to reach a conclusion about something. I actually do hold it against her that she would fall for someone like Vegeta, but that's not what you fault her for, you are faulting her for shooting a guy that was going to attack her.

You clearly don't know what training is then.

Training is being insecure? I might not know what training is but I do know what macho insecure BS is. It wasn't even training. He was testing to see how fast and strong his kid was.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Training is being insecure? I might not know what training is but I do know what macho insecure BS is. It wasn't even training. He was testing to see how fast and strong his kid was.

Vegeta hit him by reflex, and when you are in the Gravity Room, you are doing training. In martial arts, the trainer will hit you randomly when you are not even looking, not to mention when he says you to hit him.

[Eire]

I just wonder how ABED images the real combat training wihout suprise attacks.