What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

[Mad Swami]

If you ask me, Goku forgetting the seal was a pretty lame thing to throw in there. I think it would’ve worked better if they actually succeeded in sealing away Zamasu, thus forcing Black to free him by using the Potara.

I agree. The seal was so lame. They should have thought of something far more interesting. Honestly I would have thought the point of the tear in reality with the scythe or whatever was not just to showcase Black's strength, but to also provide some loophole to the Mafuba

[SupremeKai25]

It was obvious that Black and Zamasu were going to fuse so the mafuba was never going to work, but Goku forgetting the seal was borderline tarded. I'm surprised no one reprimands him for that, since that stupid mistake basically doomed the future multiverse.

The idea of Black using that rift he tore into reality to save Zamasu from the Mafuba dimension would've been a good way to develop that plotline.

[ABED]

And that's where we disagree. Goku was right there in the Saiyan arc, and he first needed them for himself. Context is important.

He picks them up after leaving Otherworld. Not to mention he would probably need them for himself in the fight against Black

In the Saiyan arc, it wasn't a just in case scenario. He needed them immediately.

[LoganForkHands73]

Goku's forgetfulness did give us a pretty funny gag of him and Vegeta arguing about it in the background while Zamasu and Black speechify to nobody but that could have been about anything. Even though there's a precedence for Goku being dumb and forgetful, he forgets vital things about three times in the Black Saga: the Senzu, the Mafuba seal and finally the fucking Mafuba urn itself. Maybe once or twice is forgiveable as a character quirk, but repeating the same lame gag thrice stops feeling like a character beat and more like a plot contrivance because the writers couldn't think of better ways to add tension. The manga at least justifies the seal thing as an honest mistake of Goku picking up one of Roshi's dirty coupons by accident which still feels in character but adds to the tension in a more interesting way than just "lol, Goku forgot". Goku may be an idiotic but I don't think he's ever been portrayed as so totally detrimental to the progression of the story than in this arc.

It also raises the question of why the writers were so intent on blueballing the Mafuba technique. They go to lengths to set it up as a potentially useful technique, but it's like the writers are flat out turning to the fourth wall and telling us that it's too lame to end the arc with so they're not even gonna bother to justify any legitimate reasons why it wouldn't work. As stated in this thread, there were hundreds of ways for Zamasu and Black to counter it in cooler, more sensible ways. Think of how much more tense the conflict would be if Zamasu is trapped in the urn and suddenly it becomes about preventing Black from opening it.

It's like Buu falling asleep during every single crisis. You can argue that it's in-character but it's still frustrating and a lazy writing priesthole.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku's forgetfulness did give us a pretty funny gag of him and Vegeta arguing about it in the background while Zamasu and Black speechify to nobody but that could have been about anything. Even though there's a precedence for Goku being dumb and forgetful, he forgets vital things about three times in the Black Saga: the Senzu, the Mafuba seal and finally the fucking Mafuba urn itself. Maybe once or twice is forgiveable as a character quirk, but repeating the same lame gag thrice stops feeling like a character beat and more like a plot contrivance because the writers couldn't think of better ways to add tension. The manga at least justifies the seal thing as an honest mistake of Goku picking up one of Roshi's dirty coupons by accident which still feels in character but adds to the tension in a more interesting way than just "lol, Goku forgot". Goku may be an idiotic but I don't think he's ever been portrayed as so totally detrimental to the progression of the story than in this arc.

It also raises the question of why the writers were so intent on blueballing the Mafuba technique. They go to lengths to set it up as a potentially useful technique, but it's like the writers are flat out turning to the fourth wall and telling us that it's too lame to end the arc with so they're not even gonna bother to justify any legitimate reasons why it wouldn't work. As stated in this thread, there were hundreds of ways for Zamasu and Black to counter it in cooler, more sensible ways. Think of how much more tense the conflict would be if Zamasu is trapped in the urn and suddenly it becomes about preventing Black from opening it.

It's like Buu falling asleep during every single crisis. You can argue that it's in-character but it's still frustrating and a lazy writing priesthole.

He also forgot he had the Zeno button, which he could've used to defeat Fused Zamasu as soon as he was born.

However I definitely would not want the arc ending with the mafuba. Fusion was foreshadowed since the very beginning of the arc, when it was shown Black only had one potara earring. So yeah, I agree there would be more tension if people had to stop Black from saving his ally, but eventually he'd have to succeed so that we can have Fused Zamasu.

[LoganForkHands73]

Goku's forgetfulness did give us a pretty funny gag of him and Vegeta arguing about it in the background while Zamasu and Black speechify to nobody but that could have been about anything. Even though there's a precedence for Goku being dumb and forgetful, he forgets vital things about three times in the Black Saga: the Senzu, the Mafuba seal and finally the fucking Mafuba urn itself. Maybe once or twice is forgiveable as a character quirk, but repeating the same lame gag thrice stops feeling like a character beat and more like a plot contrivance because the writers couldn't think of better ways to add tension. The manga at least justifies the seal thing as an honest mistake of Goku picking up one of Roshi's dirty coupons by accident which still feels in character but adds to the tension in a more interesting way than just "lol, Goku forgot". Goku may be an idiotic but I don't think he's ever been portrayed as so totally detrimental to the progression of the story than in this arc.

It also raises the question of why the writers were so intent on blueballing the Mafuba technique. They go to lengths to set it up as a potentially useful technique, but it's like the writers are flat out turning to the fourth wall and telling us that it's too lame to end the arc with so they're not even gonna bother to justify any legitimate reasons why it wouldn't work. As stated in this thread, there were hundreds of ways for Zamasu and Black to counter it in cooler, more sensible ways. Think of how much more tense the conflict would be if Zamasu is trapped in the urn and suddenly it becomes about preventing Black from opening it.

It's like Buu falling asleep during every single crisis. You can argue that it's in-character but it's still frustrating and a lazy writing priesthole.

He also forgot he had the Zeno button, which he could've used to defeat Fused Zamasu as soon as he was born.

However I definitely would not want the arc ending with the mafuba. Fusion was foreshadowed since the very beginning of the arc, when it was shown Black only had one potara earring. So yeah, I agree there would be more tension if people had to stop Black from saving his ally, but eventually he'd have to succeed so that we can have Fused Zamasu.

Yeah, I like the idea that the Potara could have been used to break Zamasu out. Black uses every technique he can to get his hands on the urn, but Goku and the others fight him off and, without another Zamasu to coordinate with, the heroes finally seem to be wearing him down. Eventually though, Black receives a pained psychic message from the urn yelling at him to put his earring on the right ear. Boom, Zamasu's Mafuba-fied soul bursts out the pot and they fuse, cue epic "my form is justice" speech.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku's forgetfulness did give us a pretty funny gag of him and Vegeta arguing about it in the background while Zamasu and Black speechify to nobody but that could have been about anything. Even though there's a precedence for Goku being dumb and forgetful, he forgets vital things about three times in the Black Saga: the Senzu, the Mafuba seal and finally the fucking Mafuba urn itself. Maybe once or twice is forgiveable as a character quirk, but repeating the same lame gag thrice stops feeling like a character beat and more like a plot contrivance because the writers couldn't think of better ways to add tension. The manga at least justifies the seal thing as an honest mistake of Goku picking up one of Roshi's dirty coupons by accident which still feels in character but adds to the tension in a more interesting way than just "lol, Goku forgot". Goku may be an idiotic but I don't think he's ever been portrayed as so totally detrimental to the progression of the story than in this arc.

It also raises the question of why the writers were so intent on blueballing the Mafuba technique. They go to lengths to set it up as a potentially useful technique, but it's like the writers are flat out turning to the fourth wall and telling us that it's too lame to end the arc with so they're not even gonna bother to justify any legitimate reasons why it wouldn't work. As stated in this thread, there were hundreds of ways for Zamasu and Black to counter it in cooler, more sensible ways. Think of how much more tense the conflict would be if Zamasu is trapped in the urn and suddenly it becomes about preventing Black from opening it.

It's like Buu falling asleep during every single crisis. You can argue that it's in-character but it's still frustrating and a lazy writing priesthole.

He also forgot he had the Zeno button, which he could've used to defeat Fused Zamasu as soon as he was born.

However I definitely would not want the arc ending with the mafuba. Fusion was foreshadowed since the very beginning of the arc, when it was shown Black only had one potara earring. So yeah, I agree there would be more tension if people had to stop Black from saving his ally, but eventually he'd have to succeed so that we can have Fused Zamasu.

Yeah, I like the idea that the Potara could have been used to break Zamasu out. Black uses every technique he can to get his hands on the urn, but Goku and the others fight him off and, without another Zamasu to coordinate with, the heroes finally seem to be wearing him down. Eventually though, Black receives a pained psychic message from the urn yelling at him to put his earring on the right ear. Boom, Zamasu's Mafuba-fied soul bursts out the pot and they fuse, cue epic "my form is justice" speech.

It'd be kind of weird if the potara could still work if Zamasu was trapped in a different dimension, but oh well it's Super so who gives a fuck.

[LoganForkHands73]

It'd be kind of weird if the potara could still work if Zamasu was trapped in a different dimension, but oh well it's Super so who gives a fuck.

Yeah. If Goku and Jiren can just casually break Hit's pocket dimension, anything's possible, lol. But to be fair, I don't think it's ever been said that the Mafuba jar works like a pocket dimension.

Goku Black using his dimension tearing ability would work just as well. Was just spitballing an idea.

[Dbzfan94]

Why don't you tell me what your point is then instead of telling me twice that I was wrong?

Why don't you just quote me properly instead of removing my tag so I don't get a notification? It's quite frankly really annoying if you're trying to have a conversation.

My point was, bias whether they're a good or bad couple aside, it's just pathetic. Goku having two children, and offering Elder Kai naked pictures of Bulma, yet not knowing what a kiss is? It makes Chichi look bad too that her husband is so braindead he doesnt even know what a kiss is despite being married for over two decades and have a grown adult son. It just doesn't make sense. Not say to he has to be affectionate, but not even knowing what it is, is beyond stupid to me.

[ABED]

I get that, but I was saying the actual wording of your sentence is an entirely different topic of discussion than what you intended. Regardless, stuff like this isn't even in the top 10 of lamest things to come out of modern DB.

And I didn't remove the tag when I quoted you. I copy and pasted , highlighted and hit the quote function. It's often easier for me.

[Dbzfan94]

I get that, but I was saying the actual wording of your sentence is an entirely different topic of discussion than what you intended. Regardless, stuff like this isn't even in the top 10 of lamest things to come out of modern DB.

And I didn't remove the tag when I quoted you. I copy and pasted , highlighted and hit the quote function. It's often easier for me.

That takes more effort than simply hitting quote though. It's just one click.

Fair enough, Minus is still #1 lamest for me.

[Noah]

You make it sound like they are Jim and Pam. They're the longest reigning couple but they are terrible together and were never shown to be great together or have anything approximating chemistry.

You're wrong, we had this episode:

Spoiler:

When Goku wakes up after getting better from the heart virus, there's a scene where Roshi is attempting to fix the door handle to Goku's room. He drops it and enters the room, stumbling upon Goku and Chi Chi saying goodbye, as he was leaving for Kami's Lookout. The camera doesn't show their faces, but it is implied that they kiss. It's a great scene, showing that Goku does indeed know how to show affection to his wife, weather he truly loves her like a soul mate or as a friend/companion that's up to debate. My point is that's probably their best interaction not only regarding the implied stuff, but also with Chichi agreeing with Goku bringing Gohan to train with him.


About the infamous kiss joke, I just gonna take that Goku is in fact used with other lips:

Spoiler:

A simple change would've not only improved the movie, but the following arcs. Have Freeza blow up the planet but with a slight change, Goku saves Vegeta and gets him to Whis. The heroes survive, but the only way to get the earth back is to win a tournament against U6 to use the Super dragon balls to wish it back. With both universes trying to bring their earth back, there'll be more tension during the matches, and it'll connect RF better to the rest of Super. With Freeza still out there, they don't have to go through the trouble of giving Whis yet another overpowered ability to bring him back, because he'll still be alive from RF.

The thing about connecting RoF arc to Champa makes everything better, but would we have a Golden Mecha Freeza after that? lol

Also I would prefer the Future Trunks arc to be the final arc of Super, having Zamasu the only survivor of U10 and better than we suppose to believe that his immortal self and pre Rose Black got ridden of universes with the likes of Jiren which still inconceivable to me to this day on

[ABED]

You make it sound like they are Jim and Pam. They're the longest reigning couple but they are terrible together and were never shown to be great together or have anything approximating chemistry.

You're wrong, we had this episode:

Because of one episode I'm wrong? It's a sweet MOMENT, but it's fleeting.

[Sadala Elite]

The overall reduced tension is one of the worst things about Modern DB. From the introduction of omnipotent Dragonballs, to having Goku being best buddies with a top tier GoD, an even stronger Angel & the most powerful being in the franchise, to the bad decision to have all of Super take place before the End of Z, etc. Its like Toriyama is hell bent on removing any sense of tension, danger and legit drama in the series smh.

[ArmenianPepsi]

The overall reduced tension is one of the worst things about Modern DB. From the introduction of omnipotent Dragonballs, to having Goku being best buddies with a top tier GoD, an even stronger Angel & the most powerful being in the franchise, to the bad decision to have all of Super take place before the End of Z, etc. Its like Toriyama is hell bent on removing any sense of tension, danger and legit drama in the series smh.

That is a pretty good point. It's hard to have any tension in the conflicts when Goku himself is basically invincible. Both literally, in the sense that he is incredibly strong physically, and figuratively. Goku is the face of DB, so he get's the biggest set of Plot Armor imaginable.

Unless they seriously wanted to take gigantic risks and make radical changes to the DB franchise, they will never permanently kill Goku off. No matter what corner they get themselves stuck in. They'll find some contrived way to make Goku survive some impossible situation, always find a way for him to win a unwinnable battle, etc. Or if he does die, they'll make sure he can always come back to make a cool last second return to save the day.

Him being buddies with some of the other most powerful beings in the universe is just the cherry on top.

[SupremeKai25]

The overall reduced tension is one of the worst things about Modern DB. From the introduction of omnipotent Dragonballs, to having Goku being best buddies with a top tier GoD, an even stronger Angel & the most powerful being in the franchise, to the bad decision to have all of Super take place before the End of Z, etc. Its like Toriyama is hell bent on removing any sense of tension, danger and legit drama in the series smh.

That is a pretty good point. It's hard to have any tension in the conflicts when Goku himself is basically invincible. Both literally, in the sense that he is incredibly strong physically, and figuratively. Goku is the face of DB, so he get's the biggest set of Plot Armor imaginable.

Unless they seriously wanted to take gigantic risks and make radical changes to the DB franchise, they will never permanently kill Goku off. No matter what corner they get themselves stuck in. They'll find some contrived way to make Goku survive some impossible situation, always find a way for him to win a unwinnable battle, etc. Or if he does die, they'll make sure he can always come back to make a cool last second return to save the day.

Him being buddies with some of the other most powerful beings in the universe is just the cherry on top.

So basically nothing's changed from Z... since Goku always came back to save the day after he died.

Plus in Super Goku hasn't won ONE BATTLE. He didn't defeat Beerus, he almost died to Golden Freeza, he didn't defeat Hit, he didn't defeat Zamasu, he tied against Jiren, and it looks like he might not be the one to defeat Moro.

It's a shonen anime, the MC will ALWAYS defeat the main villain in the end, either on his own or with someone's help. Why is that surprising to you?

[ArmenianPepsi]

The overall reduced tension is one of the worst things about Modern DB. From the introduction of omnipotent Dragonballs, to having Goku being best buddies with a top tier GoD, an even stronger Angel & the most powerful being in the franchise, to the bad decision to have all of Super take place before the End of Z, etc. Its like Toriyama is hell bent on removing any sense of tension, danger and legit drama in the series smh.

That is a pretty good point. It's hard to have any tension in the conflicts when Goku himself is basically invincible. Both literally, in the sense that he is incredibly strong physically, and figuratively. Goku is the face of DB, so he get's the biggest set of Plot Armor imaginable.

Unless they seriously wanted to take gigantic risks and make radical changes to the DB franchise, they will never permanently kill Goku off. No matter what corner they get themselves stuck in. They'll find some contrived way to make Goku survive some impossible situation, always find a way for him to win a unwinnable battle, etc. Or if he does die, they'll make sure he can always come back to make a cool last second return to save the day.

Him being buddies with some of the other most powerful beings in the universe is just the cherry on top.

So basically nothing's changed from Z... since Goku always came back to save the day after he died.

Plus in Super Goku hasn't won ONE BATTLE. He didn't defeat Beerus, he almost died to Golden Freeza, he didn't defeat Hit, he didn't defeat Zamasu, he tied against Jiren, and it looks like he might not be the one to defeat Moro.

It's a shonen anime, the MC will ALWAYS defeat the main villain in the end, either on his own or with someone's help. Why is that surprising to you?

Looking over what I said another time, i'll admit, I sound pretty dumb. Maybe I should keep my yap shut

[Sadala Elite]

The overall reduced tension is one of the worst things about Modern DB. From the introduction of omnipotent Dragonballs, to having Goku being best buddies with a top tier GoD, an even stronger Angel & the most powerful being in the franchise, to the bad decision to have all of Super take place before the End of Z, etc. Its like Toriyama is hell bent on removing any sense of tension, danger and legit drama in the series smh.

That is a pretty good point. It's hard to have any tension in the conflicts when Goku himself is basically invincible. Both literally, in the sense that he is incredibly strong physically, and figuratively. Goku is the face of DB, so he get's the biggest set of Plot Armor imaginable.

Unless they seriously wanted to take gigantic risks and make radical changes to the DB franchise, they will never permanently kill Goku off. No matter what corner they get themselves stuck in. They'll find some contrived way to make Goku survive some impossible situation, always find a way for him to win a unwinnable battle, etc. Or if he does die, they'll make sure he can always come back to make a cool last second return to save the day.

Him being buddies with some of the other most powerful beings in the universe is just the cherry on top.

So basically nothing's changed from Z... since Goku always came back to save the day after he died.

Plus in Super Goku hasn't won ONE BATTLE. He didn't defeat Beerus, he almost died to Golden Freeza, he didn't defeat Hit, he didn't defeat Zamasu, he tied against Jiren, and it looks like he might not be the one to defeat Moro.

It's a shonen anime, the MC will ALWAYS defeat the main villain in the end, either on his own or with someone's help. Why is that surprising to you?

Goku in Super losing fights means nothing if nothing is a stake.

Z showed what happens if Goku dies for good with Trunks' timeline. Nothing like that is in Super.

[SupremeKai25]

That is a pretty good point. It's hard to have any tension in the conflicts when Goku himself is basically invincible. Both literally, in the sense that he is incredibly strong physically, and figuratively. Goku is the face of DB, so he get's the biggest set of Plot Armor imaginable.

Unless they seriously wanted to take gigantic risks and make radical changes to the DB franchise, they will never permanently kill Goku off. No matter what corner they get themselves stuck in. They'll find some contrived way to make Goku survive some impossible situation, always find a way for him to win a unwinnable battle, etc. Or if he does die, they'll make sure he can always come back to make a cool last second return to save the day.

Him being buddies with some of the other most powerful beings in the universe is just the cherry on top.

So basically nothing's changed from Z... since Goku always came back to save the day after he died.

Plus in Super Goku hasn't won ONE BATTLE. He didn't defeat Beerus, he almost died to Golden Freeza, he didn't defeat Hit, he didn't defeat Zamasu, he tied against Jiren, and it looks like he might not be the one to defeat Moro.

It's a shonen anime, the MC will ALWAYS defeat the main villain in the end, either on his own or with someone's help. Why is that surprising to you?

Goku in Super losing fights means nothing if nothing is a stake.

Z showed what happens if Goku dies for good with Trunks' timeline. Nothing like that is in Super.

Nothing like that in Super? We're just going to ignore how the entire multiverse was repeatedly threatened in Super, and at one point actually destroyed? And Super showed what would happen in the ToP arc if Goku died. Everyone, including Beerus, freak out when they think Goku died to the Spirit Bomb, because they realized they have no chance of victory without him.

You also claimed it's a big deal Goku made friends in high places, but it's not, because the Gods are always handicapped in one way or another. In the tournament arcs they can't help for obvious reasons, while in the Future Trunks arc they were killed in the Future timeline. Goku being friends with Zeno ultimately backfires because he erased the entire multiverse.

[Matches Malone]

Looking over what I said another time, i'll admit, I sound pretty dumb. Maybe I should keep my yap shut

No you don't, you and who you replied to made perfectly good points. Goku is so overpowered, on top of having the strongest friends, that any tension there could be (which isn't much considering when these stories take place) is thrown out the window. One thing I liked about SsjG is that it was like fusion, it was hard to achieve and had a time limit. That's been removed, and on top of that, he has an even stronger form in Blue. After that he got UI, but it could only be used randomly, that shouldn't cause any....oh wait, he can now use the first stage at will.

If the above doesn't work, he can just bribe 2 deities with some good food to help him out, such as what happened in RF. Whis can literally bring people back to life. If somehow that doesn't work, he was given a button that summons his best friends, the Omni kings who'd erase anyone he asks them to. If that somehow doesn't work, we know for a fact he and his friends will be OK because these stories take place before EOZ, in which everyone's OK.

Yes, this is a Shonen and the heroes will eventually come out on top, as they should, but there should never be so many ways out for them as there are for Modern DB's heroes. In the original manga, there were consequences when the heroes (and especially Goku) weren't strong enough to handle a situation, the idea of consequences much less there being any has been completely left behind.