"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Shaddy]

I meant no condescension. I know this is the internet, but there's no need to be so hostile or defensive. I think you are missing the point, but that doesn't mean I think you're an idiot. Merus' biggest appeal right now is the mystery behind his ability, but if the idea of something like that doesn't appeal to you, that's fine. It doesn't mean it's a flaw with the manga, but I can't argue with you about your personal tastes.

Except the "mystery" is something where the outcome is likely mostly irrelevant. It's got nothing to do with "my personal tastes", it has to do with it not being all that engaging or good. It's hard to be intrigued by how a character's powers work when I have no reason to believe it'll make any difference. It basically never has before.

Also lol @ "defensive".

That's a very cynical outlook. As an action manga, Dragon Ball will always have fighting, but brute strength isn't always the way conflicts are ultimately resolved.

Broly is ultimately defeated by

Spoiler:

Gogeta beating him up until someone takes him away somewhere else.

They beat Jiren even though they didn't necessarily need to. Zamasu/Black was solved by a plot contrivance that they might as well have done at any time, and that everyone hates. Before that we had Hit bowing out for no really good reason. Before that in reverse order, it's strength plus magical contrivance to kill Frieza, Beerus deciding to not kill everyone because he likes them (an actually good ending to an arc), overwhelming Buu with power, disintegrating Cell, blowing up Frieza, beating Vegeta into submission, beating Piccolo 2 into submission, killing Piccolo 1, et cetera.

It's about as common as any arc ending can be, and Super is criticized for having some of the worst arc endings, with so many of them being subversions or sudden changes. As much as I want it to, I neither expect nor am confident in the series' ability to change things up to be less about samey fighting and more about different techniques or even non-physical combat altogether. And again, Toyotaro is so rooted in trying to be like the original series that I don't expect him to be the one to do it even if it does somehow happen. It's not cynicism, it's realism, based on clear past evidence.

You may have disliked the way Toyotaro handled other aspects of Super, but this is his first time being so heavily involved in the outline. Skepticism is fine, sure, but you weren't merely expressing that. You were criticizing something specific, and you were doing it inaccurately.

Only if you chose to misread what I said as "Merus is too strong it dun't make sense" and not "Toyotaro wants us to think Merus is awesome even though we have no reason to believe that", which I guess is what you did. It's not about where his allegeded strength comes from, it's that we're told the character is supposed to be great via cliche lines from Vegeta, and some train battle where we have no reason to believe the people they're up against stood any chance in the first place, rather than the character actually being cool, likeable or intriguing. We don't actually see any displays of this supposed greatness from Merus in this chapter.

You don't have to like his design. He doesn't have to be your favorite character after 1.5 chapters. That's fine, but you're jumping to conclusions.

Dragon Ball and it's characters are not that complex. Almost all of my favorites are ones I liked within the first few chapters of their introduction, and no character was I certain I disliked within that timeframe. Hell, I was excited for Vegeta before I even watched the show. Toriyama is great at giving his characters striking first impressions, and Merus has had almost the opposite.

How many people complained about Merus "catching Vegeta off-guard" last month as if it was another stupid retread? In this chapter, it's specifically stated that Vegeta wasn't caught off-guard, and that he was unable to sense Merus' presence. I just think it's a mistake to criticize something so harshly when we barely have any of the details.

I don't care about the mechanics of how he did whatever he did; this is Dragon Ball, the answer is always going to be they don't give a fuck. What I'm criticizing is that Toyotaro's idea of character introduction is making them do impressive shit (or not that impressive, given what we know about the people he works with and fights against) without the heroes understanding, rather than giving them a fun personality, design or ability. I'm not using the phrase "mary sue" yet, especially considering Super and it's use of Goku, but we've only been told Merus is really great. All we've seen is him messing up some goons that might as well be the robbers Great Saiyaman beats up for how strong or intimidating they are, and then going "oohhh but he was holding back".

[IM21]

we should get used to the trace comments. Every single image that will look similar to some other image will be a trace for some people.

[Rakurai]

we should get used to the trace comments. Every single image that will look similar to some other image will be a trace for some people.

What are you talking about, Toyotarou and Shintani have been tracing Toriyama this entire time! I thought this was a given.

[JazzMazz]

Something I will say I very much appreciate about the heist sequence was that the action actually had an interesting set piece and was far more than the typical ATATATA action we've sort of come to expect from the series.

It felt like a nice breath of fresh air, finished off with a really nice gag of Goku stopping the criminals from escaping like a doofus.

Sure, you could argue it was a little unnecessary as a piece of action, but I think there was enough unique and varying about it to keep it from getting stale in my eyes.

[Shaddy]

we should get used to the trace comments. Every single image that will look similar to some other image will be a trace for some people.

It's not one in this case, but it's plain to see just how often he reuses panels and poses from other parts of the story (including his own work), and it's not like any accusation of tracing is unfounded since he indisputably has done so before.

[Captain Awesome]

I ... actually didn't mind this chapter.

If only because it was a nice change of pace from Toyotaro's somewhat lackluster fighting panels. For the first time in a long while I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes.

[nato25]

What a fun chapter, really enjoyed that. Cool to see Goku and Vegeta get the Patrol mark on them haha and Merus is shaping up to be a very interesting character, I like how he seems to be deceiving Vegeta, add's that bit of mystery.

[JazzMazz]

I really dislike the "Toyo tracing" accusations, because I think that sort of misconstrues the actual problem people have with him in many instances, which was far more him repeatedly falling back on the same poses and angles for specific types of scenes.

I think people can get really overbearing in how they go about referring to that criticism, and it sometimes comes off as a little petulant.

[Sora Saiyan]

I really enjoyed the chapter, and there was many great bits, but my favourite was Vegeta trying on the Galactic Patrol ear pieces when Jaco tells them to wear the GP outfit. Just seeing him doing that in the background was really entertaining for me.

[Raphael_Z]

After seeing this chapter, I really wonder how awesome the world of DB would have been if Toriyama was way better at world building (or at least if he didn't plan the series to end after the Frieza saga).

In a way Toyotaro is limited by the super small galaxy that Toriyama cornered himself to (28 inhabitable planets??? WTF?) so the Galactic Patrol (whose number #1 Cop could have taken down Namek Saga Friezer quite easily but whatever) feels kind of unnecessary (this new guy patrols over 104 districts but...I guess some of those districts are barren of any life? What's there to patrol about? WTF?).

Also, it creates a huge plot point during both Tournaments: if this new guy Meerus is so strong how come Beerus never recruited him? With his crazy speed he would have completely trashed everyone in the U6 Tournament.

[Miracles]

The manga is slowly justifying why Merus got the drop on Vegeta. Couldn't sense him [Maybe an android?] an is very skilled.

The GOAT'S kI probably freaked out Kakarrott.

[FortuneSSJ]

-Chapter 43-

This is actually turning out to be interesting.

Moro doesn't only have a more unique design than most characters Toriyama draws nowadays, but he seems also to have a interesting moveset. Props to Toyotaro!
That last page was fire.

I have no doubt at this point that Toei/Toyotaro should decide what the next story arcs should be from now on and ask Toriyama to help them out, instead of let Toriyama decide for himself. Enough of Tournaments. Enough of reviving old villains. I want new things. This is the way to go.

It was Dragon Room's idea to bring Broly back. Toriyama just agreed to it. The only villain Toriyama brought back was Freeza.

I was talking about ROF.

As for bringing Broly back, that's just a part of the story. The other part is that Toriyama rejected Toei's ideas firstly and when they finally came to an agreement in making a movie about the Saiyans, they talked about Broly's popularity.

[Hugo Boss]

After reading this chapter, I came up with two crazy theories. Merus can use “time-skip” and only the Galatic King knows it. And Merus is somehow helping Moro. They need to find the Great Kaioshin to retrieve Moro’s lost power.

[Rakurai]

I really dislike the "Toyo tracing" accusations, because I think that sort of misconstrues the actual problem people have with him in many instances, which was far more him repeatedly falling back on the same poses and angles for specific types of scenes.

I think people can get really overbearing in how they go about referring to that criticism, and it sometimes comes off as a little petulant.

I agree. I think it is perfectly fine for Toyotarou to reference OG DB choreography from time to time or in small chunks since, after all, he is writing the 20-year long sequel to it and he does want for it to feel familiar with all fans. Tracing Capt. America was a different matter altogether but that's the worst case.

As for reusing same poses, angles, etc., I'm pretty sick and tired of people treating Toyotarou like he's committing a serious breach of artistic integrity among mangaka. Even the best mangaka of modern times do this to save time and meet deadlines, and he does it sparsely enough. I read One Piece and you can tell even Oda likes to recycle certain poses, angles, and battle choreography from chapter to chapter. The difference is that Toyotarou has like a 45-page chapter so ofc it's going to feel like you've seen it recently on a per-chapter-basis instead of a per-page-basis.

Ultimately, it's no different than the anime recycling animation and using old scenes as flashbacks.

[ekrolo2]

After reading this chapter, I came up with two crazy theories. Merus can use “time-skip” and only the Galatic King knows it. And Merus is somehow helping Moro. They need to find the Great Kaioshin to retrieve Moro’s lost power.

Merus having Time-Skip would explain why the Galactic King knows about it, and Toyotaro is the kind of guy to try to explain details like this.

[IM21]

I wouldnt be surprised if Meerus is a bad guy and he helped Moro to escape. Toriyama likes to give us villains in pairs.

[AnimeNation101]

I wouldnt be surprised if Meerus is a bad guy and he helped Moro to escape. Toriyama likes to give us villains in pairs.

Agreed. But if this really is a Toyo original, maybe it really is just Moro. But i still doubt that.

[superfan2024]

-Chapter 43-

This is actually turning out to be interesting.

Moro doesn't only have a more unique design than most characters Toriyama draws nowadays, but he seems also to have a interesting moveset. Props to Toyotaro!
That last page was fire.

I have no doubt at this point that Toei/Toyotaro should decide what the next story arcs should be from now on and ask Toriyama to help them out, instead of let Toriyama decide for himself. Enough of Tournaments. Enough of reviving old villains. I want new things. This is the way to go.

I think you’re forgetting the fact that Toei was the one who suggested Kale’s existence, and was also the one who suggested for Toriyama to reboot Broly.

Also, for the tournaments, OG DB had a tournament after every other arc. Super has had just two and we’re only complaining about it because Super has only had 3 new original arcs and the first one and the last one were tournaments while the tournament of power was pretty lengthy.

[AnimeNation101]

-Chapter 43-

This is actually turning out to be interesting.

Moro doesn't only have a more unique design than most characters Toriyama draws nowadays, but he seems also to have a interesting moveset. Props to Toyotaro!
That last page was fire.

I have no doubt at this point that Toei/Toyotaro should decide what the next story arcs should be from now on and ask Toriyama to help them out, instead of let Toriyama decide for himself. Enough of Tournaments. Enough of reviving old villains. I want new things. This is the way to go.

I think you’re forgetting the fact that Toei was the one who suggested Kale’s existence, and was also the one who suggested for Toriyama to reboot Broly.

Also, for the tournaments, OG DB had a tournament after every other arc. Super has had just two and we’re only complaining about it because Super has only had 3 new original arcs and the first one and the last one were tournaments while the tournament of power was pretty lengthy.

Toei didn’t suggest for Toriyama to reboot Broly. Toriyama literally said his editor gave him the idea.

[superfan2024]

-Chapter 43-

This is actually turning out to be interesting.

Moro doesn't only have a more unique design than most characters Toriyama draws nowadays, but he seems also to have a interesting moveset. Props to Toyotaro!
That last page was fire.

I have no doubt at this point that Toei/Toyotaro should decide what the next story arcs should be from now on and ask Toriyama to help them out, instead of let Toriyama decide for himself. Enough of Tournaments. Enough of reviving old villains. I want new things. This is the way to go.

I think you’re forgetting the fact that Toei was the one who suggested Kale’s existence, and was also the one who suggested for Toriyama to reboot Broly.

Also, for the tournaments, OG DB had a tournament after every other arc. Super has had just two and we’re only complaining about it because Super has only had 3 new original arcs and the first one and the last one were tournaments while the tournament of power was pretty lengthy.

Toei didn’t suggest for Toriyama to reboot Broly. Toriyama literally said his editor gave him the idea.

Ah, you're right, my apologies. Still, the point is we can't entirely blame Toriyama on bringing back old concepts.